Talk:Chicago Surrealist Group

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  • Article merged: See old talk-page here
  • Article merged: See old talk-page here

Contents

[edit] Sources

I am assembling "proof" for the "Wikipedian community" about some of the material in the article. I would ask anyone who states this links to be "invalid," "bogus" or "unsubstantial" to say why they say so.

The 1976 World Surrealist Exhibition:

"Central among these are the Charles H. Kerr press and the Black Swan surrealism imprint, small but prolific independent outfits run by the Rosemonts". Ladies and Gentlemen, This is an Exact Passage from the link that Daniel C.Boyer posted here from BAD SUBJECTS. The evidence proves beyond a doubt that it is a fact that the Rosemonts are using Surrealism to capitalize on. They are in the business of Selling Surrealism to you. They never met Andre Breton, or they would be selling you a picture of them with him as well, you know, in one of their, "surrealist publications". This is not Surrealism, not Revolution.

Ladies and Gentlemen, Please read the entire interview from the link that Dan posted above, the interview that Penelope Rosemont gave to Dan Postel. Penelope does not provide any details on WHO she met in the Paris Group of Surrealists. What are their names? Why did Penelope NOT mention any names in this interview? If I was going to research this, along with researching the history of Surrealism, this interview would give me Nothing to go on! IS there a Picture of Franklin Rosemont and his wife Penelope with ANDRE BRETON???? Why is there no picture? Did they meet him? Where exactly did they meet Breton? What day? What location? Why would Penelope NOT Share this information with us? This is very important considering what the Rosemonts claim. As I see it, they do base their entire, "Surrealist and Artistic" careers on the notion that they met Breton and his Paris Surrealist Group? Well, Why did not Penelope TELL Dan Postel the NAMES of the Surrealists that she claims she met?????? Why leave that information out??? Especially when you give an Interview to Mr.Postel and the Exquisite Corpse publication????? Does Penelope know that people are reading this interview that she gave to Mr.Postel????? Where exactly did she and her husband met Breton????? Is there a Picture of Penelope and her husband Frankline with Andre Breton?????????? Please Help?????

ROSEMONT: This was 1964-65. At that time, the original Surrealist Group still existed in Paris and Andre Breton was still alive. I decided to pack up all my things, drop out of school, leave my apartment and go to Paris. Franklin and I got together all the money we possibly could and, at the end of December 1965, left for Paris. We had no idea what to expect. We went via London. We hoped to stay in London for a brief time and brush up on our French before going on to Paris. But the immigration officials in London did not like our looks. They hated our one-way ticket. For some reason they thought this was extremely suspicious. They were also suspicious of the fact that we had money in the form of cash and travelers' checks. They seemed to think we had either robbed a bank or that we were emigrating to England. So we ended up in their detention department. They told us that next day they were sending us back to New York. But after much arguing, and paying for a return ticket, they let us go on to Paris. It was a dramatic scene: they drove the limousine right onto the airfield and put us on the plane, but our passports were not returned until the plane was off the ground. They were sure we would jump off the plane and run to London! When we landed in France we were shaken up, thinking the same thing might happen again and that we'd end up back in New York. But no, the French waved us right through. And when we arrived in Paris, we discovered that Breton's book Surrealism and Painting was in the window of every bookstore and gallery. It had just come out. We found a little hotel through Europe on $5 a Day. (The hotel was actually $3 a day.) And about two blocks from the hotel the surrealists were holding an international surrealist exhibition.
POSTEL: You hadn't heard this would be taking place?
ROSEMONT: We had no idea. And if we had stayed in London as planned, we would have missed it. As it was, we ended up going to the Surrealist Group's New Year's Eve party. We also went to the cafe and met many surrealists who were in town for the exhibition. And of course we were able to meet with André and Elisa Breton, and we became good friends with many members of the group. It was really a wonderful time to be there. I'm so grateful that by chance those stuffy English authorities decided they didn't want us in England!" exact quote by Penelope Rosemont.

Dear Daniel C.Boyer, Dan, if you can show me any information on the 1976 World Surrealist Exhibition in Chicago WITH (or including) any (even one will do) surrealists from the WEST COAST GROUP OF SURREALISTS exhibiting in that show, I am willing to talk you on agreements on issues you want closure on. Dan, please show me ANY info, on any member of THE WEST COAST GROUP OF SURREALISTS that participated in the 1976 show run by the Rosemonts and that will prove to me that Franklin and Penelope were the real thing, you know. —The preceding unsigned comment was added by 24.168.92.117 (talk • contribs).

[edit] VfD consensus

Per the VfD discussion archived at Wikipedia:Votes for deletion/Chicago Surrealist Group, this article has been kept. --TenOfAllTrades | Talk 02:00, 20 Mar 2005 (UTC)

[edit] Agree to article restored

I do agree with the Wikipedia consensus to restore this article. I need to ask the user:Daniel C.Boyer if Dan can be so kind enough to show us a website or any reference site that shows a picture of the Rosemonts with Breton or any scanned letters from the Rosemonts to Breton or Breton to the Rosemonts. I only ask this for the purposes of historic investigation which can HELP the many researchers and students who are studying surrealism. Note: that the Chicago Surrealist Group is a self-identified group of artists and poets who started their group in 1966 and remained active until 1978. From the research that I have been doing online, their appears to have been sporadic activity by this, "group" and their various friends from the 1980's to 2003, but the activity is very on and off, and I still cannot access any visual material on this group's pamphlets, group pictures, activities, etc, without having to make a purchase from their commercial website. Dan, can you please be so kind as to show us anything from any scans of past issues of Arsenal or show us any pictures of this group, please?Classicjupiter2 19:56, 22 Mar 2005 (UTC)

Why are you confining yourself to online research? I don't need to do your research for you -- have you ever heard of something called a library? Have you ever heard of something called interlibrary loan? Again, why do you insist that all sources be online or digitized? --Daniel C. Boyer 22:00, 22 Mar 2005 (UTC)
Daniel, specifically, what surrealist publication or book, or any reference source can I obtain that will prove that the Rosemonts met Breton?Classicjupiter2 18:10, 25 Mar 2005 (UTC)

In interest in stopping the string of reverts and counter-reverts, could both of you please state in as exact, NPOV, and short a way as possible why you think your version is more accurate? Perhaps both sides could mention a relevent source? Trying to be helpful, -- Infrogmation 22:27, 31 Mar 2005 (UTC)

Infrogmation, there is no evidence to prove that the Rosemont's ever met Andre Breton. The Rosemonts claim to have personally met Breton, yet after all the exhaustive research that I have done on this issue for the past four years, there still does not exist ONE picture of the Rosemonts with Breton. I cannot find any visual evidence or credible account of this, "historic" meeting with Breton. Infrogmation, if you take the time to really study surrealism and become obssessed with verifying information for the love of the subject that you are researching, you would certainly do all you can to prove the facts! In this case, what you have is an account that is so vague and the non-existence of one picture of the Rosemonts with Breton, proves that there, "account" is totally bogus! You think I am the only person that feels this way? Then I ask you, Infrogmation, pick up the phone and call CUNY in New York City, ask for Prof. Mary Ann Caws (Surrealism expert and expert on Breton)) and ask her, where can you find a picture of the Rosemonts, Franklin and Penelope, with Andre Breton from 1965? All it takes is a phone call. IF there is no picture, then the account is bogus and I will not allow this article to contain false information. I will not allow it. Show me a picture of the Rosemonts with Breton and I will totally support this article.Classicjupiter2 20:02, 3 Apr 2005 (UTC)

I'm sorry I don't understand why the lack of a photograph is the determining factor. I've known many people well for a long time, but often unless we were hanging around someone who likes to take lots of pictures, there may be no photos of us together. Perhaps I'm missing some point you're trying to make about pictures, here, could you please spell it out? On the other point, you say "The Rosemonts claim to have personally met Breton", I wonder what the source is for that, did they write about it in print? You acknowledge that they make such a claim, and you seem to doubt it-- could you explain why? Are the Rosemonts notorious liars or something-- if so could you sight examples as why they should be considred sources whose claims should not be believed? I'll appreciate additional information, thanks. -- Infrogmation 03:22, 4 Apr 2005 (UTC)

Infrogmation, I really want to work this out with you so you can fully understand, so please allow me to further elaborate, please read very carefully: Infrogmation, both you and I are not historic figures nor are we notable figures in any historic movement, we are just ordinary people surfing the Internet. Now, the late Andre Breton is not ordinary in the least, for he is an historic figure who created a historic movement that has been documented, exhibited and studied for decades since his passing and to infinity. Art Scholars, Art Historians, Art Lovers, Literature Scholars, Academia, Professors, Museums, etc.,etc.,etc., STUDY Andre Breton and SURREALISM with a dedicated passion. Remember the TATE, "Surrealism Desire Unbound" event from 2002? Anyway, there is EXTENSIVE Documentation, Pictures, Photos, Films, Manuscripts, Pamphlets, etc.,etc.,etc., that document Surrealism. THERE IS EXTENSIVE VISUAL AND PHOTOGRAPHIC MATERIAL ON COUNTLESS NUMBERS OF SURREALISTS IN PICTURES WITH ANDRE BRETON!!!! He was certainly NOT camera shy in the least! Breton was MORE than willing to appear in photographs with fellow comrades in Surrealism and there is EXTENSIVE proof of that fact! HUNDREDS, and HUNDREDS of Photos, Pictures, etc., etc., have been documented for historic purposes! The Point that I am stressing here is that while Andre Breton was alive and while he was active in Surrealism up until the day he died, he made sure that his ACTIVITY was EXTENSIVELY documented and that MEANS PHOTOS!!!!!! YES!!! How hard is that to ******ing understand????? Read, "Making History" the book about the Surrealist Movement under Breton written by Scholar, Kristen Strom. Surrealists who met Breton and who were welcomed into Surrealism by Breton APPEAR in photographs with him, be it in a group photo or themselves standing next to him, etc., etc., etc,. Andre Breton made a point to document the movment to make sure that SURREALISM will continue after his death! Franklin and Penelope Rosemont claim to have met Andre Breton in 1965! They claim to have been writing letters to him since 1962! Yes, that I believe. I do believe that they DID write letters to Breton, Claude Tarnaud the surrealist did verify that in Rosemont's book, "What is Surrealism" BUT there APPEARS to be NO RETURN correspondence written By Andre Breton to the ROSEMONTS!!! Hey, I can write countless letters to You, without You writing me back, but what I am saying here is that, Franklin and Penelope Rosemont claim to have been, "welcomed" into Surrealism by Andre Breton personally! I spent four years trying to find the holy grail of Breton's letters to Rosemont, and it appears that none exist! I cannot find ONE ****ing book or historic document that SHOWS Breton's letters to Rosemont. Nor can I find any Visual evidence of the meeting between Breton and Rosemont!!!!! It was sure historic enough to start a surrealist movement here in the USA back in 1966 though!!!! But I still cannot find any picture of Franklin and his wife Penelope Rosemont wtih Andre Breton!!!!! How the **** can you explain why this is left out???? Andre Breton was the LEADER of the International Surrealist Movement!!! Andre Breton was the man who was Franklin and Penelope Rosemont's main role model, hero, idol, and influence. Andre Breton was such a huge influence on Franklin Rosemont that, according to Rosemont, "after being welcomed into Surrealism by Andre Breton" he and his wife started the Chicago Surrealist Group in 1966. Well, WHERE IS THE PROOF OF THIS HISTORIC MEETING!!!!!???????? It is not that I want to debunk this, I DO NOT!!! I sincerely want to PROVE and SHOW that this meeting took place. I want to prove to the art historians and the world that Franklin and Penelope Rosemont did meet Andre Breton BY GETTING HOLD OF A PICTURE OF THEM TOGETHER, ANY PICTURE for God's sake and SHOW the art historians that this is REAL!!!!! That it is really true!!! BUT IT IS NOT!!!! IF you were Franklin or Penelope Rosemont and if you were going to meet your role model and hero, after extensive letter writing for nearly four years, and then fly to Paris to meet your hero, DON'T YOU THINK YOU WOULD TAKE A ****ING PICTURE AT LEAST??????!!!!!! Come on, none of us are stupid. Work with me here. Infrogmation, here me out on this: Pick up any phone and call the City University of New York, CUNY or go to Prof. Mary Ann Caws website and get her phone number. Call her and tell her that you, Infrogmation, are an Administrator on an Encyclopedia Website and you are trying to solve a problem concerning Surrealism being documented on the website that you help supervise. Tell her that all you want to do is verify facts regarding Surrealism in 1965. Ask Prof. Mary Ann Caws (Expert on Surrealism) the following question, "Hello, Prof. Caws, My name is Infrogmation (or whatever your real name is, that is your business), I am trying to solve a problem verifying facts concerning surrealism. Prof. Caws, I need to ask you WHERE I can find any photograph of Andre Breton with Franklin and/or his wife Penelope Rosemont? Prof.Caws can you please help? There are many, many students and researchers who are studying surrealism and it would be such an important discovery to SHOW that this historic meeting between the Rosemonts and Andre Breton took place? Where did it take place? IS there a transcript of the meeting between Breton and Rosemont? Is there any letters written by Breton to Rosemont? Where can I find them? What publication are they in? Is there any museum or art historian that I can contact to get a hold of any visual photos of the Rosemonts with Breton back in 1965? How about any photos of the Rosemonts from 1965? Anything will do. Prof. Caws, can you please help? Thank You, Infrogmation." Well that is all you have to do. Let me know how it works out.Classicjupiter2 23:19, 4 Apr 2005 (UTC)

[edit] Months long dispute

Again, I ask those editing/interested in this article to PLEASE PLEASE explain in a short precise manner, with source(s) please, on what they base their opinion about meeting or not meeting Breton? Thanks! -- Infrogmation 05:35, 22 Jun 2005 (UTC)

If no sources or coherent explanations are given, what am I to assume is the motivation for these edits? -- Infrogmation 03:57, 25 Jun 2005 (UTC)

There is no evidence that the Rosemonts met Breton. I spent years looking for a picture of the Rosemonts with Breton and nothing exists. ITs a made up story, it never happened. IF it did, then lets see something, anything, a letter by Breton to the Rosemonts, something, anything.Classicjupiter2 00:41, 17 August 2005 (UTC)

[edit] Not having met Breton

Can Classicjupiter2 and his sockpuppets provide any cite for this novel POV besides themselves? Can they cite any reason beyond presumption and the (presumed) lack of "visual photos" (sic) to make this claim? --Daniel C. Boyer 14:27, 15 August 2005 (UTC)

[edit] Put up or knock it off

Who, if anyone, has said that the Rosemonts met Breton? Who, if anyone, says they didn't? If anyone knows anything about either of these questions, why have they refused to explain or add such information? -- Infrogmation 04:20, 21 August 2005 (UTC)

Infrogmation, I already told you in the past, that if you really want to get to the truth behind this matter than contact an expert on Surrealism, the noted historian Prof. Mary Ann Caws and ask her. Do you want her phone number again? Call her and ask her. In the meantime, please do not allow false information to taint this article. I would support your edit that they, "did or didn't meet Andre Breton" which you wrote in the past. You should be more reasonable, instead of jumping the gun. WHY is it so difficult to prove that the Rosemont's met Breton? Infrogmation, do you have proof to support your last edit? If so, show me.Classicjupiter2 16:33, 21 August 2005 (UTC)
As far as I'm aware, Classicjupiter2 and his sock puppets (and he doesn't dispute this) are the only ones suggesting the Rosemonts didn't meet Breton, while practically everything on them says they did. If Classicjupiter2 is willing to revise the article to qualify any claim that the Rosemonts met Breton with "but one anonymous person disputes this on the sole basis that he claims a photograph of the meeting does not exist" I'll be more than happy to support it. --Daniel C. Boyer 19:29, 21 August 2005 (UTC)

Daniel, who do you mean by, "everything"? Are you talking about, "everything" the Rosemonts ever published? Daniel, listen, I am really trying to work with you on this matter, even though you have a vested interest in promoting your friends, I still need to see some proof of any meeting with Breton. A handwritten letter by Breton to the Rosemonts, or anything written by Breton himself, acknowledging that he met the Rosemonts, will do. When Franklin and Penelope say they met Breton, does that mean that they seen him speak, or meet him face to face during meetings with him and his group. The Paris Surrealist Group always kept some kind of transcripts and minutes of their meetings, as evident by the notebooks, etc. Franklin and Penelope make a living off of saying they met Breton, yet I have not seen one credible art historian show us the actual evidence of this alleged meeting. Where did it take place? What Day? Who was present? Where are the transcripts? Where are the photographs? Well....?Classicjupiter2 20:06, 21 August 2005 (UTC)

Classic, you have been shown photos already - please stop this vandalism. Paki.tv 06:04, 12 December 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Merge proposal

I am proposing that the very short (and rather pathetic) Surrealist Movement in the United States article be merged into this article. I realize that this looks like merging something (at least theoretically) larger into something smaller, the fact is that the SMitUS was founded by members of the Surrealist Group of Chicago, and those individuals have been the driving force behind the movement. I would argue that it is not too far off the mark to say that they are, in fact, two different ways of referring to the same thing: the 2 dozen or so artists, writers, and theorists in the US who are continuing the legacy of Breton and the Surrealists.

(Note: This proposed merger should in no way be construed as a suggestion that either the Chicago Surrealist Group or the Surrealist Movement in the United States lack notability of verifiability, as has been claimed, ad nauseum, in the past.) ---RepublicanJacobiteThe'FortyFive' 02:30, 13 October 2007 (UTC)

Merging seems like a good idea. For the moment, I accept that this group meets our notability guidelines, but I really think this article needs better sourcing. Something from an academic source would be helpful. (Didn't Franklin Rosemont write the surrealism entry for some encyclopedia?) --Akhilleus (talk) 04:18, 13 October 2007 (UTC)
I have received no further comment on this matter. I am tempted to interpret this as unspoken agreement with the proposed merger. I will wait another week and then go ahead with the merger unless objections are raise. ---RepublicanJacobiteThe'FortyFive' 00:37, 4 November 2007 (UTC)