Talk:Chi Machine

From Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

This article is being improved by WikiProject Rational Skepticism. Wikiproject Rational Skepticism seeks to improve the quality of articles dealing with science, pseudosciences, pseudohistory and skepticism. Please feel free to help us improve this page.

See Wikipedia:Contributing FAQ.
Stub This article has been rated as Stub-Class on the Project's quality scale.
(If you rated the article please give a short summary at comments to explain the ratings and/or to identify the strengths and weaknesses.)
Complementary and Alternative Medicine Portal
This article is within the scope of the WikiProject on Alternative Medicine. Please visit the project page for more details, or ask questions on talk.
Stub This article has been rated as Stub-class on the quality scale.
Articles for deletion

This article was nominated for deletion on December 26, 2005. The result of the discussion was no consensus. An archived record of this discussion can be found here.

Contents

[edit] Lack of sources

I've reverted the last edits by Angel26 since they still do not cite good references. "Booklets" are not how academic research is published. Given the fact that this device is claimed to produce all sorts of beneficial effects, a reputable source is needed. It's important to note well that this machine is claimed to do these things. There's no clear medical explanation or scientific basis linking vibratory movement of the body with oxygenation, oxygenation with the lymphatic system, or chi with any of those things. There's a reason why this article was categorized pseudoscience. --Pablo D. Flores (Talk) 04:13, 25 December 2005 (UTC)

Angel26 (talk · contribs) repeatedly reverts my changes. See his/her talk page for discussion; s/he doesn't reply to them. I've filed a request for comments on this article. I'm in doubt whether to block the user, which could be seen as abusive on my part and probably useless, or to protect the page. --Pablo D. Flores (Talk) 13:45, 26 December 2005 (UTC)

[edit] Spam Advertising and Personal Opinion

Pablo-flores (talk · contribs) has repeatedly ignoreed all emails sent to him regarding posting advertising spam, incorrect information and personal opinion regarding the Chi Machine. The Chi Machine does NOT address anaemia and the Chi Machine company does NOT endorse the distributor websites he has linked to. The clinical trials for secondary lymphoedema and venous lymphoedema are fact, as are the published results in the medical booklets published and written by Professor Neil Piller and Flinders University. Flores even tried to link to info regarding a completely different product produced by the same company. How trustworthy is this mans work when so many mistakes have been made regarding this subject?

FYI regarding "There's no clear medical explanation or scientific basis linking vibratory movement of the body with oxygenation, oxygenation with the lymphatic system ... " Mr. Flores, do you understand the meaning of Passive Aerobic Exercise? Do you understand what is Chi? --User:Angel26(Talk) 12:59, 26 December 2005 (UTC)

[edit] Response to RFC

There is only one scientific reference to the Chi machine. This journal article has not been cited by others except for a critical editorial in the same issue. A scientific hypothesis can only be regarded as valid if it has been verified indenpendently by many researchers. The content of the Wikipedia article is totally different from the content of the scientific journal article: whereas in the Wikipedia article there is reference to oxygenation, the immune system, etc., nothing is said about this in the scientific journal article. The effect described in the latter is (according to the abstract) elevation and passive exercise to the legs. This article represents pseudoscience and quackery and constitutes advertising spam. Andreas 19:30, 26 December 2005 (UTC) [[

This Chi Machine should not be presented as fact, as it does not meet any standards for empirical study or the scientific method.
MSTCrow 09:38, 1 January 2006 (UTC)

Pseudoscience and spam. Working on revision. Hipocrite - «Talk» 15:32, 12 January 2006 (UTC)

RfC - I concurr with those above. This is obviously spam and should be edited ASAP. - JustinWick 23:23, 16 February 2006 (UTC)

RfC Also concurring. JoshuaZ 06:10, 20 February 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Responses

Angel26 hasn't sent me any emails. I haven't given my email address, and there are no messages in my talk page. In view of the complete lack of references of the initial version of this article, I searched the web for "Sun Ancon Chi Machine" (note it wasn't only "Chi Machine") and found many websites that sell it. In a couple of them I found all sorts of claims. I mentioned them in the article. Other editors provided references to the studies conducted at Flinders Uni and described their results (though those results can only be found online in a commercial website). This is the source: [1].

I do understand what chi/qi is. It's a concept of traditional Chinese medicine, with different interpretations according to different people. It is meaningless in a scientific setting, because it has not been scientifically shown to exist. Aerobic exercise is a well-studied field, of course, but it doesn't need a Chi Machine.

As for the RfC... Andreas says it's advertising. I made the mistake of trying to correct that. The initial version was in fact plainly an advertisement. The facts are:

  • Dr. Shizuo Inoue believed that "lack of oxygen is the root of most or perhaps even all disease". He invented the Chi Machine in order to oxygenate the body and thus, I suppose, cure "most or perhaps even all disease".
  • The Chi Machine, as it is sold now, doesn't do that. It oxygenates the body like any aerobic exercise would, but it doesn't cure diseases.
  • Other people who sell the machine claim it has many additional effects.
  • The original machine is sold, according to Angel26, "exclusively by Hsin Ten Enterprise". We must take this for granted, despite the fact that there are many websites promoting the machine under this very name. Since it's just a vibrating box, it's no wonder that it can be copied so easily. The HTE website says it's an exercise machine.
  • Patent information and approval to use as a medical device in several countries is mentioned in the article, but not documented. The HTE site of course doesn't count.
  • The Flinders study found some remarkable effects attributable to the machine. We know the study exists and the results are reported in the HTE site. One however has to wonder about the quality of the research given the fact that the Flinders team was presented with 20 Chi Machines as a gift.

I stumbled upon this article by accident and thought it would be a good idea to fix it instead of nominating it for deletion outright. I thought it was a "testimonial" of someone who believed the machine was useful for the many things claimed by its sellers. I somehow got the idea that it had to do with chi/qi, pseudoscientific oxygen therapy, chiropractic-like spine massage, and the like. I was wrong. It was an advertisement. I'll take care of my mistake right now. --Pablo D. Flores (Talk) 22:20, 26 December 2005 (UTC)

[edit] Pablo-Flores has made a mockery due to ignorance and demand for personal control.

Pablo-Flores denies recieving emails from Angel26 when there is a contact email on his page? Well here is one of them:

"You have been warned. You insist on pretending you are an expert on the Chi Machine when ypou clearly are not. First you tried to link an FDA article regarding a different product, then you insist on using the word claim without any medical research and now you add advertising spam by linking to two commercial sites that are NOT recognised or approved by HTE, sites that contain untrue information. NO WHERE does HTE claim the Chi Machine addresses anemia as you have written. Please remove the advertising spam and the ridiculous paragraph "Promoters of the Chi Machine say that it stimulates the lymphatic system, "adjusts" or "balances" the vertebral column by swaying it (reminiscent of chiropractic), improves the immune system, estimulates blood production (countering anemia), helps the autonomic nervous system, and serves as exercise. The mechanisms by which this is made possible are not explained."

THIS ENCYCLOPEDIA IS NOT ABOUT ADVERTISING!!!!!!!!!!!!! NOR IS IS ABOUT PERSONAL OPINION!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!"

The many websites Flores found are independent distributor sites with incorrect and outdated information yet he insists on refferring and linking to them. Any reference Flores found on the distributor sites mentioning Flinders medical trials, was copied from HTE Australia and chimachine4u.com which were the only original websites that wrote about the trials after conferring with Professor Piller and recieving letters and documentation from Flinders University. Flores was already explained this in the emails that he said he did not receive.

The Chi Machine is a passice aerobic exercise machine, registered as a medical device in Japan, Australia and Canada. Flores has not bothered to verify this and thereby mocks the machine calling it quackery even though three governments attest otherwise. Flores also mocks the existance of 'Chi' which is HIS personal belief and not that of millions of people today and throughout the history of the world not even including Chinese medical beliefs.

Flores states "Aerobic exercise is a well-studied field, of course, but it doesn't need a Chi Machine." A Chi Machine CREATES passive aerobic exercise"!!! i.e. oxygenation of the body through physical movement/stimulation via the Chi Machine. The Lymphatic System needs movement in order to function properly and that is why the Chi Machine also assists in detoxification as it stimulates the Lymphatic System via passive aerobic exercise.

Flores states "...and thus, I suppose, cure "most or perhaps even all disease" and " It oxygenates the body like any aerobic exercise would, but it doesn't cure diseases." Flores is the only person mentioning the word CURE. No-one else is. When involved in traditional or alternative healing modalities, no authoritative source will ever mention the word cure. Flores obviously has no experience in this field and best get back to studying Japanese although he is advised to study 'Chi' he he wishes to be accepted into Asian culture.

The original Chi Machine IS sold exclusivly by Hsin Ten Enterprise. Gordon Pan the chairman of HTE has a contract with Skylite Corporation in Japan and Dr. Inuoe (since deceased). Aproval by the Japanese Ministry of Health and Welfare for this remedial device, was signed on 28th August 1990, approval certificate 02B No.1539. All other alleged Chi Machines are imitations that have copied all their info from the original Sun Ancon created by Dr. Inuoe. Use of the name 'Chi Machine' by any imitation is ilegal as the name is copyright and HTE is constantly battling imitation companys.

The 26 patents and approval IS documented on chimachine4u.com with consent and verification from HTE headoffice in Taiwan.

Flores states "The HTE site of course doesn't count." The company that internatiionally distributes and works with Sklite corporation leading Japanese scientists on the original Sun Ancon Chi Machine to improve and modify the machine, DOES NOT COUNT?!!!

Flores then goes on to dismiss Flinders University medical research because HTE donated 20 machines for use by patients and doctors. Flores is not only insulting but embarrassing.

The initial Chi Machine wikipedia entry was a short and simple explanation with no reference to any distributor websites and therby spam advertising. Flores was the person that decided to do that and then add personal belief on top of the mess he has now created.

If sources are needed beyond a simple straightforward descriptiuon of the Chi Machine, they should only be HTE Americas, HTE Australia Flinders University, Dr. Inuoe and Professor Piller. The only distributor that has approval, consent and validation from HTE regarding 100% correct medical and technical information for the public, is chimachine4u.com

It is sad that one man's bias beliefs can create such a mountain out of a molehill, that simply lacked sources that were being added slowly but surely without spam advertising or personal opinion. If the page is deleted, then so be it rather than allow spam advertising, bias, false beliefs and lies be printed. --User:Angel26(Talk) 03:51, 26 December 2005 (UTC)--

I left several messages on your talk page. That's not email. You didn't respond. The first words I got from you were the above comments where you say I haven't replied to your emails.
You're bordering on personal attack in several places, but I don't feel insulted. I do find a little amusing that you believe that I somehow need to accept the pseudoscientific concept of chi because I'm studying Japanese and therefore I want to be accepted into Asian culture, but that's not the issue. This article is promotion for an exercise machine. At the least it's non-notable (there are a million machines like this around). I suggest you stop attacking me and instead defend the article in the proper place, i. e. in its deletion voting page, and using the proper format. This is the last you'll hear from me, I promise. --Pablo D. Flores (Talk) 00:32, 27 December 2005 (UTC)