Talk:Chess (musical)

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Contents 1 Summary 2 Cast albums and more 3 Old talk 4 Rewrite 5 Names 6 reason for deleting Danish tour song list? 7 Films about chess category? 8 Fair use rationale for Image:Chess2003.jpg 9 Fair use rationale for Image:Chess bbt.jpg 10 Swedish Chess and Albums 11 Danish Tour Song List 12 Multimedia concert version, Los Angeles, 2007 13 Question: Chess Ballet? 14 Who the fuck get deleted the instrumentation paragraph??

[edit] Summary

"oosely based on those of Victor Korchnoi and Bobby Fischer.[1]" I think that the American is more based on the American tennis player John McEnroe. In a revised version of the score (reflected on the Danish Tour Recording) Freddy even compares himself to McEnroe ("I'm like that tennis player, whathisname?") I've never read or seen or heard any references to Victor Korchnoi in any version of the score. 68.237.124.236 (talk) 03:38, 27 April 2008 (UTC)

It's never stated in the original play or concept album who is supposed to be inspiration of the American or even the Russian -- indeed, in the original play they didn't even have names. Bobby Fischer would be the obvious analogy, but even then, the analogy is not direct and probably only consists of inspiration for parts of his personality (namely his grandstanding and being difficult). The NPR story cited as your "[1]" does not even directly state that Fischer was the inspiration for Chess -- it only mentions it as "in the 1980s, a musical," and so despite being a realible source on its own is not really on point. I see in even less justification for a comparion to McEnroe, who was surely arrogant and difficult with officials about official judgements, but I don't see how that bears directly on the question (since there are plenty of other athletes/competitors that fit that description, and they still really address the precise behavior of the American in the play. Quite frankly, the whole thing is original research and without specific (reliable) citations from the authors of the play itself about who the direct inspiration was, should be excised. Xihr (talk) 03:51, 27 April 2008 (UTC)

I re-added this sentence, with better citations. The connection to Bobby Fischer is obvious, and extends even to the name of the American, Freddie Trumper. Interestingly, Korchnoi seems to have been partly an inspiration for both the characters of the American and the Russian - in the Broadway version, Freddie accuses Anatoly of getting coded hints through the yogurt that his aide in the audience is eating, which is an accusation that Korchnoi once made. Korny O'Near (talk) 02:55, 28 April 2008 (UTC)

You keep removing my citations... the first article states that "Bernie Jacobs, the grand Rhadamanthus of the Shubert Organization, one of the presenters of the musical, says that Bobby originally was the model for the American player but that in the course of events his image got a little diluted." The second one states that "So dramatic was the course of this bitter contest [the 1981 Korchnoi/Karpov match], that it provided much of the inspiration for the Tim Rice/ABBA musical CHESS." Why do you think these two citations are invalid? Korny O'Near (talk) 13:02, 8 May 2008 (UTC)

[edit] Cast albums and more

There should be separate pages for the cast albums. I think I have five of them! The original and Broadway ones are the major releases, so they should get priority. I might even have the Danish one! I do have a concert performance from a union benefit with Josh Groban as Anatoly. I saw the Broadway-style version last year in my area. My only grievances are the actor who played the Arbiter flubbed the song (where's Björn Skifs when you need him?), and the orchestra sounded almost like a high school band (recitals, etc.), and had three keyboards like Supertramp and Depeche Mode (nothing wrong with that, though!). Also the end of the show, but I won't spoil it for you if you haven't seen it yet. I think the company that held it wanted to cash in on Mamma Mia!, which was held at the same complex three months earlier. I put my programmes and ticket stubs somewhere (they're not Playbills). I had two cassette imports of the original, from West Germany/Scandinavia and Canada. I gave the Canadian one to someone I know who likes the actual game. The recent death of Bobby Fischer made me come here, as he inspired the plot. I'm no fan of chess itself, but rather of ABBA, like many people who go to the show. I'll go again if it's near me.Sposato (talk) 01:26, 19 January 2008 (UTC)

There are five legitimate albums of Chess: the concept recording (1984), the Broadway recording (1988), the Gothenburg concert recording (1994), the Danish tour recording (2001) and the Swedish recording (2002). Only three of these (concept, Broadway and Swedish) had any singles out from them, and only the concept album was really a hit in English speaking countries. I don't think any particular albums other than the original concept album would merit their own pages. There has been a good deal done with the concept album specifically: there was a concert tour before the London production, and there was a video ("Chess Moves") with 5 music videos, as well as a number of significant singles, and concerts like Gothenburg ("Chess in Concert") all on the basis of the concept album. If you want to create an independent page just for the concept album, that'd be cool, but I don't think any of the others are notable. Cadriel (talk) 01:37, 21 January 2008 (UTC)

[edit] Old talk

"Chess-Baltimore, for instance, will open in March 2004 with a strong cast and powerful adaptation. It may well become the definitive Chess."

Well, March 2004 has come and gone. Can something be said about Chess-Baltimore in a perfect or past tense now? GTBacchus 01:23, 11 May 2004 (UTC)

A little late, and I didn't say that much. I read the synopsis ([1]), and it didn't seem to incorporate anything other than the Broadway version. I read a review ([2]), and it didn't seem to deem it the definitive anything. -- Jao 10:28, Aug 12, 2004 (UTC)

I changed the comment "It is occasionally produced by regional theatrical companies in the US", as I live in the UK, and I've seen it performed by local companies here several times. --MockTurtle 23:56, 11 Sep 2004 (UTC)

Changes I made this morning:

-Changed reference from Stockholm being a "third" version (it's more like a seventh) to a "new" version.
-Added songlist for Stockholm version.
-Added Danish Tour recording w/ songlist and cast.
-Added a production history for the show. --Cadriel 18:03, 27 Oct 2004 (UTC)

[edit] Rewrite

I am about to do a complete rewrite. I hope no one freaks out! I think the article will be much improved, BUT it still has a serious problem with citing sources and avoiding a gossipy Broadway-insider tone. I am attempting to remove as much of that tone as possible. The other point of the rewrite is just to get the article better organized - moving the production history section before the endless list of recordings, and so on. --Dmz5 18:35, 13 December 2006 (UTC)

Just to be clear, the vast majority of what I did was rearranging stuff that was already here - the only rewriting I did was shortening the Broadway plot summary and removing ~10 sentences of the "Elaine Paige gave a truly phenomenal performance" variety. I also added the quotations attributed to Robin Wagner, which I will source properly at some point in the near future.--Dmz5 00:31, 14 December 2006 (UTC)

Shifted the page into chronological ordered, replaced CD listings with show listings, and highlighted which was recorded. Split Concept and London into separate sections, and added London synopsis. Added complete Broadway song listing.Loobyloo 01:19, 5 January 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Names

Could someone who knows the story add the names to the plot synopsis? "The American" and "The Russian" is unnecessary and confusing, as it appears they do have names. -R. fiend 03:38, 23 February 2007 (UTC)

On the original concept album, these characters were known only as "The American" and "The Russian". It was only when the score was expanded into a stage version that these characters got the names of "Freddie Trumper" and "Anatoly Sergievsky". --Kyoko 04:41, 23 February 2007 (UTC)

I see. Thanks. Does the article make that clear? I skimmed most of it. -R. fiend 17:10, 23 February 2007 (UTC)

The recent addition of the school based production detail has cleaned up, due to duplication of song list from London/Danish production, and bias removed, although I am undecided as to whether as much detail about an amateur production should be included?

[edit] reason for deleting Danish tour song list?

Hello, I just looked at this article, and I was wondering why the song list for the Danish tour was deleted. --Kyoko 18:43, 28 April 2007 (UTC)

Hi, I think I deleted it, as it was identical, with the exception of Someone Else's Story been inserted, to the London production. I think I did leave a note stating that it was identical with the location of this song.

[edit] Films about chess category?

Hello, I notice that this article is now under the "Films about chess category". While the production I saw had a video component in the staging, I think it's a bit of a stretch to consider the musical an actual film about chess, even if you count the music videos that have been done with the score. --Kyoko 12:54, 20 May 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Fair use rationale for Image:Chess2003.jpg

Image:Chess2003.jpg is being used on this article. I notice the image page specifies that the image is being used under fair use but there is no explanation or rationale as to why its use in Wikipedia articles constitutes fair use. In addition to the boilerplate fair use template, you must also write out on the image description page a specific explanation or rationale for why using this image in each article is consistent with fair use.

Please go to the image description page and edit it to include a fair use rationale. Using one of the templates at Wikipedia:Fair use rationale guideline is an easy way to insure that your image is in compliance with Wikipedia policy, but remember that you must complete the template. Do not simply insert a blank template on an image page.

If there is other other fair use media, consider checking that you have specified the fair use rationale on the other images used on this page. Note that any fair use images uploaded after 4 May, 2006, and lacking such an explanation will be deleted one week after they have been uploaded, as described on criteria for speedy deletion. If you have any questions please ask them at the Media copyright questions page. Thank you.BetacommandBot 20:40, 2 June 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Fair use rationale for Image:Chess bbt.jpg

Image:Chess bbt.jpg is being used on this article. I notice the image page specifies that the image is being used under fair use but there is no explanation or rationale as to why its use in Wikipedia articles constitutes fair use. In addition to the boilerplate fair use template, you must also write out on the image description page a specific explanation or rationale for why using this image in each article is consistent with fair use.

Please go to the image description page and edit it to include a fair use rationale. Using one of the templates at Wikipedia:Fair use rationale guideline is an easy way to insure that your image is in compliance with Wikipedia policy, but remember that you must complete the template. Do not simply insert a blank template on an image page.

If there is other other fair use media, consider checking that you have specified the fair use rationale on the other images used on this page. Note that any fair use images uploaded after 4 May 2006, and lacking such an explanation will be deleted one week after they have been uploaded, as described on criteria for speedy deletion. If you have any questions please ask them at the Media copyright questions page. Thank you.BetacommandBot 20:40, 2 June 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Swedish Chess and Albums

I've just added more information on the Swedish Chess production, and the albums. I also wandered about the Broadway casts, its music is not more than 1-3 hours, so how come it ran for 4 hours?—Preceding unsigned comment added by 81.191.58.233 (talk • contribs)

And I've reverted your contributions. There are already THREE synopses and song lists on this article -- there doesn't need to be any more. If someone wants to create a separate article on the recordings of the show, then all the song lists in the world can go there. But this article is already too confusing to the average reader. —  MusicMaker5376 02:47, 21 July 2007 (UTC)

As an informational note: the Broadway show has a substantial spoken Libretto which makes it considerably longer than the score. It ran slightly over 3 hours on its opening night, and was pared down to less than that for later performances because of overtime pay regulations. The shorter version is what is licensed for general distribution. Cadriel 20:21, 30 July 2007 (UTC)

I can agree with you on that, but the big difference in the Stockholm production should be explained, as it is a total different version, and also one of the best. I understand your point of view, and it's OK. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 81.191.58.233 (talk • contribs)

I know that this show has had more incarnations than most, and, believe me, how to handle that has been at the back of my mind for awhile. I think that the three synopses we have are too many, and how to properly organize this article and highlight all the changes the show has gone through has been at the back of my mind for awhile. I'd like to get it down to one synopsis -- preferably the concept album, as that was the first -- and note the changes each production has made that deviated from the concept album. I think that's the best way to handle it. —  MusicMaker5376 21:39, 30 July 2007 (UTC)

In my opinion a plot synopsis of the Swedish version is necessary as the story, the places etc. are really different, although I agree that the article is maybe a bit too long with three synopses but as a reader who is looking for information it is not very helpful to read that the Swedish production was dramatically different to the original story not knowing in which aspects it was different.heute —Preceding comment was added at 15:48, 19 October 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Danish Tour Song List

The Danish Tour song list is redundant with the London song list, except for the inclusion of "Someone Else's Story" (already noted in the text). I'm removing it, please comment here if there is any conceivable reason it should be on the page. Cadriel 14:08, 21 September 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Multimedia concert version, Los Angeles, 2007

Should this even be on here? It was a one-night production that, unlike the Actors' Fund Benefit which was also a one-night production, seems completely non-notable. Not to mention that the section itself gives no real information about how the production fits into the grand scheme of CHESS lore, just that it was a "Mixture of London and Broadway versions": but then, aren't all random CHESS productions nowadays a mixture? I say it should be removed. Any thoughts? --Jvd897 (talk) 03:23, 11 January 2008 (UTC)

I wouldn't exactly say that it's NN, but I wouldn't object to its removal. —  MusicMaker5376 15:30, 11 January 2008 (UTC)

I don't see this production as being as notable as the London, Broadway, Danish tour, and Stockholm runs. While I won't delete this section myself, I also won't object if it is removed. --Kyoko 20:24, 11 January 2008 (UTC)

[edit] Question: Chess Ballet?

Can somebody tell me if there is any Chess ballet sequence part of the Musical? As far as I know, this is not the case!? DaQuirin (talk) 19:47, 22 January 2008 (UTC)

In London, in the early runs, there was a lengthy ballet sequence at the opening of Act II. As far as I understand, the choreography was based on Michael Bennett's early work on the show before he left the production. Unfortunately, the ballet as it was done on stage proved to be dangerous, and dancers would hurt themselves performing it. It was eventually cut down, which is a significant loss to the show, as it was struck from the production score and never recorded. The music ("The Golden Ballet") was an extended variation on the "Bangkok" theme that precedes "One Night in Bangkok," incorporating several other themes as a proper balletic suite for the show. The ballet was not a "chess ballet" in the sense of an interpretation of a chess game.

Of course, numerous touring and regional productions have used balletic sequences in the show. For instance, there was a sequence with a game of chess being played out through dance during "The Story of Chess" in the 1990 US tour, and the 2002 Stockholm production used dance as a chess game in "Historien om schack" ("Story of Chess") during the second act. But "The Golden Ballet" is the only ballet sequence ever written for Chess. Cadriel (talk) 15:03, 25 January 2008 (UTC)

Thank you very much for the detailed information! One question left: is there any reference you know for the original Golden Ballett? --DaQuirin (talk) 13:15, 28 January 2008 (UTC)

[edit] Who the fuck get deleted the instrumentation paragraph??

Someone here is a just a little out of mind... i mean, the instrumentation is a very important information concerning a piece of theatre, isn't it? So, who's the fuckest person in the world that deleted the fuckin' instrumentation paragraph?? Maybe some bitches here sons of whores believe is funny to destroy de wikiers' work. You, shitting man, show your ass on wiki... i'm sure is the same as your face...

son of a bitch!!! —Preceding unsigned comment added by 82.50.173.209 (talk) 13:08, 30 May 2008 (UTC)

First of all, see WP:CIVIL. We're nice to one another on WP. If you can't be civil, I'm not going to bother explaining why the section was removed. — MusicMaker5376 15:04, 30 May 2008 (UTC)

First of all, this is completely inappropriate in tone and language for a talk page. Second, while I didn't remove it, I'll stand by the removal from the page. Instrumentation is not an interesting or important part of the show's history. By far the majority of significant musicals don't have instrumentation in the details, and with a show that has varied as much as Chess it just isn't part of the story. Chess has some interesting production history behind it, much of which is unfortunately not very well documented. While cast and song lists are appropriate, instrumentation is not. Cadriel (talk) 15:12, 30 May 2008 (UTC)

I agree, it's fairly trivial. Xihr (talk) 19:27, 30 May 2008 (UTC)

So, we're not talking about musical stuff... if you discuss around opera or melodrama the instrumentation is quite basilar, 'cause reflects author's/orchestrator's vision of the music... i think it's more and more interesting that some gossip news about this or that revival... remember that each revival means ALWAYS changements NOT MADE BY AUTHORS BUT THE OCCASIONAL DIRECTOR: this means alterations that destroy the original tought about the show and the original musical ideas... Songs and casts change in every productions, this is true and fondamental... But in this way you treat musicals like soap operas... My purpose is to transfere this lemma to the soap opera section...

Noone here understand nothing about music... —Preceding unsigned comment added by 82.56.175.44 (talk) 20:54, 1 June 2008 (UTC)

This is ridiculous. Chess has been reworked with the cooperation of the composers multiple times. The same team rewrote the orchestrations for London, Broadway, and Stockholm. They were also changed around for the recordings; none of the officially released cast recordings or concert recordings actually feature the theatrical orchestration. The closest is probably the Broadway cast album, but this features a whole new keyboard line that is not in the theatrical score. The Stockholm album also is noticeably different from the live orchestration; a cursory listen to the album and the live DVD would verify this. We've got a lot of ground to cover in this article, and trying to pin down the exact orchestrations would be difficult, take up a lot of page space, and add next to nothing to the content of the article. If you want to create your own page elsewhere that details the orchestration history, that's fine, but I do not believe it has any relevance to the larger article here. Cadriel (talk) 13:59, 2 June 2008 (UTC)