Talk:Cherokee freedmen controversy

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Contents

[edit] Creation of this page

I created this page on the basis that there is little knowledge about this subject anywhere. All material pertaining to this issue weems to have a POV attached to it and therefore anybody who is looking for answers and not persuation should try and find it here. I do need help though filling out this page. Please help me do so, not only for me, but for the Cherokee people who need to make up their own minds and not be persuaded by political and tribal factions.Iwasmad 14:08, 15 May 2007 (UTC)

[edit] David Cornsilk

I think the paragraph about him at the end could probably go into its own article. Smmurphy(Talk) 16:00, 16 May 2007 (UTC)

[edit] move

Does anyone mind if this is moved to (or merged with the old version) of Cherokee Freedmen, which is currently a redirect? If not, at least a good deal of the history could go over there. Smmurphy(Talk) 05:57, 29 May 2007 (UTC)

A general article about all Freedmen is a better candidate. There are freedmen from all five tribes and they all were placed onto a single roll -- the Freedmen Roll. There were no "Cherokee Freedmen" as such recognized by the Dawes Commission as all Freedmen from the five civilized tribes were lumped together. The Cherokee Freedmen are in fact all of the freedmen listed on the Freedmen rolls from all five tribes, so its not particularly just a "Cherokee" issue. Jeffrey Vernon Merkey 17:56, 30 May 2007 (UTC)
This goes again to the dispute over whether people of Cherokee heritage not on the right rolls can be called Cherokee. There is an article freedman, and I just linked this from there. Putting this material into that article would imbalance that article, but would be an option. Smmurphy(Talk) 18:23, 30 May 2007 (UTC)
I agree. There's a lot more here you may not be aware of. The freedmen issue is not strictly confined to the Cherokee. The Seminole Nation also disenrolled thier freedmen members. What would make more sense is an article titled "Oklahoma Freedmen" or "Freedmen of the Five Civilized Tribes", the latter of which is far more accurate. Remember, these Freedmen spoke a native language. Jeffrey Vernon Merkey 21:39, 30 May 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Issue summary section

The section called "The Issue" came from an old version of Cherokee Freedmen that was brought here when Cherokee Freedmen became a redirect (at least I think I remember that being the case). The section was a bit POV, and a bit redundant with the history section. The section has now been renamed "Issue summary," which seems to be less POV (and much better cited), but still a bit redundant with other sections. However, I think that the redundancy is ok, but it should be in the lead section, rather than the issue summary section. Thus, I think that the old section (if/where it was citable and NPOV), the rewrite, and the lead should all be merged into a new lead. Best, Smmurphy(Talk) 18:17, 5 July 2007 (UTC)

I would really like it if you would stop placing garbage about the Cherokee Nation into Wikipedia. You do not seem to have the accurate materials about what's going on in the Cherokee Nation, or related to any of these controversies. Thanks. Jeffrey Vernon Merkey 04:01, 6 July 2007 (UTC)
Whoah, J. Chill. A new user made some edits to the issue summary section, and I thought that the issue summary should be merged with lead. The last time I made any substantial edits here was May 15 [1], which I think you looked through, and were happy with [2]. Stormshadows00 is a new user, I don't think their edits need be removed, nor the census facts about slaves. The material about recent events does need to be paired down, but I don't think cutting all of it at once was helpful either. I'll hold off on reverting you myself (but I'd support someone else to do it) given the issues between us, but don't take issues you have with me out on a new user. Best, Smmurphy(Talk) 07:48, 6 July 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Changes made to Cherokee Freedmen Controversy

My first issue with the page is that the "Issue" section, which had information that has NEVER been stated in any media or information in the Freedmen situation. Chief Smith has never stated that he did the election for the Cherokee who are of African slave descent and it's been known to people who have been following the case that there hasn't been anything that even alluded to that before and after the March 3rd ruling and the federal case announcement (and I even put up his actual words from the announcement of the election). That right there is not in accordance to Wikipedia's NPOV policy, which I read before I made ANY changes.

As far as the "Diversity" pictures go, the Cherokee Nation recently made those ads in response to the allegations of racism with the Freedmen sitation. Putting those ads up with no indication of their origin and what the pictures were for is definetely not contributing to the article. And in the "history" log, the previous editor removed ALL the recent formation on the case, but stated that all he did was "replace photos removed and intro".

Another issue is the issue of the census information and other recent information about the Freedmen controversy that has been completely removed from the page. Now the original claim in the revision before mine is that "unsourced material" was removed, but all of my statements were cited with links and information backing up all my statements unlike the previous revison. I find it funny that my information was removed yet the information that was replaced had nothing backing up the statements made.

The recent changes I made was an update with recent information (once again sourced) with the action that has happened after the loss of citizenship (which was again removed by the previous edit and recent edit) and announcement of Bill HR 2824, additions to the previous statements that were missing from the previous edit, information about Cherokee slavery and lawsuits, removed the "issue" part because it was not factual and kind of redundant since the issue is in the header, and the merge of my previous edit to the header per the suggestion of smmurphy stated in this discussion (also putting parts of the original my original edit in other sections). The original article had three or four references. I had twenty four references.

Even though I followed all the guidelines, the changes were removed and the previous article was replaced. My concern with this article is that there is some misinformation, omitted infomation, factual information becaing removed, and the neutrality is definitely in question. If this keeps going on with each edit, there's no point in putting up accurate information.

Stormshadows00 18:55, 10 July 2007 (UTC)

I believe this is a sockpuppet account of a banned user, JohnC1. Are you JohnC1? If not, welcome, if so, you are not allowed to edit here asnd you changes can be reverted. Removal of the photos has not good jsutification. Jeffrey Vernon Merkey 20:30, 10 July 2007 (UTC)
I added back in the materials about HR 2824 and removed your uncited edits which attack Chad Smith. The use of the term Cherokee nation of Oklahoma is likewise a dead giveaway. I need to see some evidence you are not JohnC1 or from the Cornsilks Board. Also, using Wikipedia to libel Chad Smith violates WP:BLP and will not be tolerated here. Jeffrey Vernon Merkey 20:36, 10 July 2007 (UTC)


First you put "This user is suspected to be a "sock puppet of JohnC1" in my information and you have made changes to my profile page with that statement. I don't know what a "sock puppet" and I don't know who or what "JohnC1" is. But I do know one thing. I've read each and every guideline on wikipedia and according to them, you are putting false information and ommited information that has everything to with the Cherokee Freedmen situation. I have not violated any rule or guideline here and a believe harassment by a fellow user is a guideline on here. My edits can be verified with the twenty four links that I put on this page. (And for your information, many people call the tribe "Cherokee Nation Of Oklahoma"). ALL of MY edits that I, stormshadows00, made are completely cited and I don't know where you get off coming at me with "unsourced material", "he's a sockpuppet" and "libel Chad Smith". You've deleted almost all of the original article plus deleted information that actually happened. And to me, you're not being neutral or even about putting up the actual information.

And now you want to say I'm "JohnC1" or whoever he or she is and call me a "sockpuppet" in my profile? That's clear sign that you're foul about this. Stormshadows00 21:04, 10 July 2007 (UTC)

If Stormshadows00 could fix the citations a little, so that it is clear what the original source is, we will be able to see more easily if the source is a reliable one. But from what I can see, most of them are strong (Washington Times, Daily Pheonix, etc.). I think the relevant policies might be undue weight and what is sometimes called synthesis and therefore original research, but neither is so ergrerious that mass reversion is useful. I think we should leave Stormshadow00's material on, and vet it (slowly, as in discuss each major change), if anything. Best, Smmurphy(Talk) 22:25, 10 July 2007 (UTC)
This user may be Johnc1, we need an admin in here to checkuser this account. revert wars, and uncited attacks on Chad Smith make is pretty clear who this is, along with claims they do not know what a sockpuppet is but yet edit proficiently on Wikipedia. Jeffrey Vernon Merkey 22:58, 10 July 2007 (UTC)
Feel free to file a WP:RFCU. Also, please state which issues specifically you have. Best, Smmurphy(Talk) 23:08, 10 July 2007 (UTC)
"This user" has no idea who or what a "JohnC1" is! I don't appreciate you putting this "user may be JohnC1" on my information or on my messages. My name isn't "John", I don't have a "C" in my name, and last I checked it was "00" and not "1". As for me "editing proficiently", it's not that hard to do when you cut/paste the article, type words, and actually preview it. It's really not. I don't know where you get off coming with all of this but smearing my name on here just because I actually researched the case and put up factual information? That is beyond weak. I would like any user in this discussion other than you to go through what I typed, clicked the links, read the recent information, and see if there is any "uncited attacks" or anything that is even remotely close to what you're describing about my "uncited attacks". If there is, that person can change it. If not, it can remain. But this "JohnC1" business....come on. Anyone with common sense knows that I'm new to this. Stormshadows00 23:35, 10 July 2007 (UTC)

[edit] slow down with reversions

I reverted Jeffreys reversion, as I think a bit too much was removed (for instance, why did you take out the categories, you changed some facts oddly, you removed all reference to Mcloghlin's work, which had been there for some time, etc.). If something is a BLP issue, that, and only that, can be removed on sight, although even for that it would be nice to discuss it here. For the rest, please get a concensus before any major changes. Thanks, Smmurphy(Talk) 04:24, 11 July 2007 (UTC)

Murphy, you reverted materials into the article which contain libel and statements attributed to over four Cherokee Nation officials, the Chief of the Keetoowah's, and other people which claim these people have made racist statements, and other uncited allegations. None of these statements were cited. These changes are a libel article with dozens of WP:BLP violations. What a mess. Jeffrey Vernon Merkey 04:50, 11 July 2007 (UTC)
Wow. Just wow. You are really being extra now. First of all, go to the United Keetoowah Band website (www.unitedkeetoowahband.org) and look at Chief Wickliffe's message under "CHIEF'S MESSAGE" in the "Keetoowah News" section. Did he or did he not say what I said in the article about the Cherokee breaking a treaty? Exactly. You're 0 for 1. Those statements talking about Chief Smith and Cowan Watts...I believe actual quotes were used to make a statement like I did? Let's see, shall we? Number one. Washington Post link from article: "A lot of Cherokees don't know who the freedmen are," Smith said. Did he, growing up? "No.". That pretty much screams "Didn't know about the Freedmen" if the man actually said it. Number two: USA Today link: "I didn't hear of freedmen until this whole issue came up," she says. "I didn't hear of them or meet them.". And Darren Buzzard? Come on. Many of those "uncited" have his quotes in full. 0 for 4.
Where's the "libel"? "Libel" has to be false, right? And I noticed that you deleted that with many other things.
And "uncited"? Let's see. Washington Post, USA Today, Cherokee.org, Indianz.com, Muskogee Daily Phoenix, Associated Press via KTEN.com, Oklahoma State's Chronicles Of Oklahoma, Tulsa Library's government documents, House Of Representatives's official site, Washington Times via The Litchfield Group, DiverseEducation.com, OSCN.net for the court documents.....stop me when I come to something "unsourced"?
And I've seen you're going around the article putting up "citation needed" with your new revisions (which are the same old revisions again) and the funniest thing is that you put a "citation needed" next to the "Chief Smith wanted an election" and the link is in the article! Would you like a quote? "Smith says tribunal decision could be addressed by calling for a tribal constitutional convention to amend the current document or through referendum petition.". And that BTW, was from the Associate Press following Chief's Smith's statement after the reinstatement. You're doing all of this and not once have you actually read what you edited.
0 for 5. I think it's pretty much clear that with your edits, omitting information, deleting established facts, changing up facts, claims of "libel" when the information is sourced, this "JohnC1" mess, and overall attitude about this, you're not about showing the facts on this situation or even putting accurate information on the article at all. And going as far as to slander my name with those tags you left at my information page shows that you're being extra foul with this. And isn't crying "he's a sockpuppet" and editing my page not only foul, but is it "libel" when you have no shred of substantial tangible proof whatsoever? Exactly. Stormshadows00 07:58, 11 July 2007 (UTC)
Do not post libel here. I checked several of the citations and none of these attributed statements appear in them. If you continue to post such content, there is a strong possibility you will be blocked from editing on this site. Jeffrey Vernon Merkey 15:22, 11 July 2007 (UTC)

Guys, if you want to lob insults, do so somewhere else. The discussion page is to discuss content. I put back the bit about Watts and Smith not knowing about the Freedmen, but I clarified the Smith part, and I added a bit from the Freedmen perspective, so it is balanced. Let me know what you think. Best, Smmurphy(Talk) 15:41, 11 July 2007 (UTC)


I understand what you're saying, but I am discussing the content of the page too. Claims of "libel" when they're not there, citations being labeled as "unsourced" when they are, and changes made with 0 explanation is just crazy to me along with other things. But I agree. This is about content. The changes you made are good and I see nothing wrong with them. I did correct one thing and that was replaced "they" with she" on the Watts comment. I did make some edits to restore some information on there. You can go through it and see if there is some things that need to be clipped or changed, Smmurphy.. 1. The lead….per your request, I did merge the original text with my edit plus sent detailed information to their respective sections. They shouldn’t have been changed and reverted back to the original. 2. “The Issue”….like I stated before, there has never been a statement made or anything alluding to the bottom paragraph (like “based primarily upon demands by Cherokee Citizens of mixed African-Cherokee ancestry who disapprove of their fellow Freedmen”. I’ve seen nothing that back up that statements). The way both paragraphs are typed is pretty much painting the picture that vast majority want the Freedmen out and that, in tandem with the “Diversity” pictures, is not neutral or even accurate. The statement “The Cherokee Nation and majority of Cherokee Nation Citizens do not believe the Freedmen contributed to the success of the Cherokee Nation in modern times, and as such, voted to revoke their Citizenship in a recent tribal election. “....8,700 voters out of 250,000 members is not “majority”. The Cherokee Nation is not in unision about this and there are tribal council members who don’t agree with the administration’s choices. The entire “Issue” section has no purpose since the issue is clearly stated in the previous lead. I decided to change it. 3. The “Diversity” pictures....if they remain, the reasoning behind the pictures should be stated and not used as an ad for the Cherokee Nation. 4. The “History” section is redundant to the lead and other sections. The same information can be found in the lead and “Reinstatement And Loss Of Citizenship” section. I’ went ahead and changed it back. 5. “Feelings On The Controversy”....I’m restoring the two paragraphs to that. The issue of the treaty being broken and the issues of blood and race has been in forefront of the controversy and has everything to do with it. With Chief Wickliffe’s comments, I’m adding an additional link from Indianz.com to the article. The other comments had links associated with them.
As soon as I find the Allen vs. Cherokee Nation court documents, I’ll add them to the page so that others can see the actual descision. But for now, you can take a look at the changes and see what should be trimmed. Stormshadows00 01:56, 12 July 2007 (UTC)
I like your changes to the lead (and removal of Issue section), it seems better to be more complete, especially given the length of the article. I think leads are generally cited, so we'll have to add refs to it, but those should come mostly from refs already in the article. You removed a {{fact}} tag without referencing the statement; I think that statement and a couple others do still need references. I'll look at it more closely later (as will others, hopefully), but I like your edits. Best, Smmurphy(Talk) 02:45, 12 July 2007 (UTC)

I added a couple fact tags, but I stopped. Basically, when an article is contended, you can assume that most statements might be challenged, and its always better to add a citation than remove such a tag. More importantly, I removed a couple sentences with racist statements, as they don't really need to be repeated. Saying that the letter contained racist statements (or perhaps saying that so-and-so said that the letter contained racist statements) is enough, and I don't think it is generally necessary to repeat stuff like that. Smmurphy(Talk) 03:35, 12 July 2007 (UTC)


I was debating on whether to delete the statements or not. It works without the quote so that's cool. As far as the fact tags go, one or two tags were on things that already had a citation for it. But I'm working on them right now. Some of the links do talk about the Cherokee Freedmen's history and I added a link about Stick Ross but, but I'll find individual links. That covers the first fact citation. The court decision for Allen vs. Cherokee Nation does state that the Freedmen were members for 110 years prior to the 1983 removal. I put the court document in the section. Second citation....I'm going to change it to "The freedmen descendants protested the vote" and put up links to the protest demonstrations in Oklahoma. The original statement was made by David Cornsilk, but I feel this change is better. A previous editor put the information about the third citation, but I'll do some searching and see what I can find.
I changed the lead again back to the original and removed the changes that I previously removed and explained above. The change you made to the lead was placed in the Freedmen section, but you can move it to another location if that doesn't work for you. The editor above states "The Freedmen did not contribute nor were involved in the 1975 struggle of the Cherokee Nation to attain Federal recognition when it was reorganized by Congressional Act in 1975" but the Cherokee Nation's own supreme court said "If this Court is to engage in a retrospective review of what the framer's thought, it should also focus on what those people knew, or must have known, about the citizenship status of the Cherokee Freedmen. The individuals who drafted the 1975 Constitution were well-educated and some were attorneys. They were familiar with Cherokee Nation legal history. When they included a direct reference to the Dawes Commission Rolls in the 1975 Constitution, they knew the Cherokee Freedmen were included in that document. These individuals were also familiar with Cherokee history under the 1839 Constitution, the Cherokee Nation's treaties and agreements, and the allotment process. The authors could not have been unaware of the citizenship status of Cherokee Freedmen. At that point in time, the Cherokee Freedmen had been legal citizens of the Cherokee Nation for 110 years". That edit along with others should have not been made because it wasn't factual and I changed that as well. You can go through it and do some proofreading of the new changes. Stormshadows00 22:53, 12 July 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Removal of Images

Please do not remove the images again without valid discussion or place uncited statements which are libel into our project. Thanks. Jeffrey Vernon Merkey 19:48, 12 July 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Section heading capitalization

Just a note, per WP:HEAD, generally only the first word in a section is capitalized. I'll get around to checking things out more in depth later, keep up the good work. Best, Smmurphy(Talk) 00:59, 13 July 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Lead

Pleas bring specific issues you have with the lead to the talk page, rather than reverting. Most of the material is cited, and citations are being brought into a standard form. Constructive criticism is appreciated. Best, Smmurphy(Talk) 13:27, 13 July 2007 (UTC)

The same applies to you. I want you to stop reverting without discussion either directly or via other accounts. Jeffrey Vernon Merkey 17:15, 13 July 2007 (UTC)


[edit] Being Cherokee

The article says that "descendants of the Cherokee Freedmen are Cherokee and were allowed to register to become enrolled citizens of the Cherokee Nation." The issue that I have with the current phrasing is that there is more than one way to understand "being" Cherokee. You can "be" a legal citizen of the Nation. You can "be" a Cherokee by blood. You can "be" a Cherokee by culture. The court ruling, which never uses the phrase "are Cherokee" or "is Cherokee" anywhere in it, says that descendants of Cherokee Freedmen are legally citizens of the Nation. It does not say a single word about which continent their great-great-great-great-grandparents were born on, what their race (a socially constructed concept anyway) is, or whether anyone is Cherokee by culture. It merely says that they are properly citizens of the Nation. I'd like to lose the ambiguous (and IMO, POV) language in favor of emphasizing what the court ruling actually says. WhatamIdoing 14:31, 14 September 2007 (UTC)

Sorry about the long response, but here is how I see it. Citing the court ruling probably isn't the best way to do it. How do secondary sources interpret the ruling? Our language should reflect the interpretation by reliable and authoritative secondary sources. The paragraph in Ray about this is on page 4 (6 of the pdf itself) of the working paper:
On March 7, 2006, the Judicial Appeals Tribunal of the Cherokee Nation issued its long-awaited opinion in the case of Lucy Allen. In a 2-1 decision, the supreme court of the second-largest Indian nation in the country ruled that descendants of freed slaves of the Cherokee (“Freedmen”) were entitled to citizenship. Cherokee Freedmen were African-descended people who had been owned by Cherokees until their emancipation by the Nation in 1863. Under the terms of the Treaty of 1866 reconciling the Cherokees with the United States, the tribe agreed to adopt the Freedmen as citizens and amended its Constitution accordingly. Many Freedmen and their descendants, though not all, were listed on the Final Rolls of the Dawes Commission which were, and are, the exclusive means by which to establish Cherokee Nation citizenship.
So at least based on that source (authoritative on basis of scholarly and published in law journal) I'd say that the ruling decided only on citizenship in Cherokee Nation, which makes sense to me. If we like, we can include mention that "historically, Cherokee people viewed their self identity as a political rather than racial distinction," which is a referenced line from the Cherokee article and from the Cherokee section of the Native American identity in the United States article. Doing so, however, is synthesis-esque original research unless we have an example of someone else making that connection. Ray makes this jump at page 63 of the working paper (65 of the pdf) in the paragraph that reads:
While kinship ties are typically obtained by birth within a tribal community, they can also be created through adoption. While the clan system still operated as the primary unit of society, Cherokee “[c]lans frequently adopted prisoners of war to supplement their own numbers and to replace kinsmen who had died or been killed.” White men in the late 1700s who associated themselves with Cherokee towns were occasionally adopted by clans but usually not. In the nineteenth century, as the clan system was overtaken by the model of citizenship, “American men who married Cherokee women could then seek legal rights in the Cherokee Nation without participating in the traditional ritual of adoption.” When the Cherokees adopted the Freedmen and their descendents into the Nation by the Treaty of 1866 and constitutional amendments of 1866, and later extended citizenship to intermarried whites, Shawnee, and Delaware, they did so against a background of Cherokee adoption practices which, while never extensive or a challenge to the primacy of ancestry, were nonetheless sufficiently common to have engendered their own rituals.
So I think that if we want to make that jump, we have to do so in a separate sentence that is clear why we might consider those politically granted citizenship as Cherokee. Most of the discussion, at least as framed by Ray, belongs more in the history section than the current issues section, unless we can find current activists using this argument in particular. I know that Marilyn Vann makes this jump, so if you look at her materials, you might be able to find something that fits into the current issues discussion better. But even then, its an argument Vann makes, not a universally accepted fact, and should be presented in that way. Best, Smmurphy(Talk) 15:25, 14 September 2007 (UTC)