Talk:Chernyakhov culture
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Don't forget to add Chernyakhiv culture, Chernyakov culture, and Chernyakovo culture to the lead sentence, emphasizing what's important here. It's good to see all this well-tempered discussion start to bear fruit and defeat the "Russian Mafia's" anti-Ukrainian propaganda. —Michael Z. 2005-10-23 21:52 Z
- Please, I would rather prefer that you guys don't make this into a political issue. This is an archaeology article about a mixed ethnic culture existing long before either Russia or the Ukraine. I copy the discussion here, so that we won't have to do it again.--Wiglaf 06:56, 24 October 2005 (UTC)
In case anyone doesn't realize it, I was being sarcastic. —Michael Z. 2005-10-24 12:49 Z
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- Don't you have a better job, Michael, than following me everywhere and being sarcastic?--AndriyK 20:44, 24 October 2005 (UTC)
This is exactly the point, AndriyK! That people of all backgrounds who have other things to do have to follow your edits and clean up after you. Maybe the problem isn't with these people. --Irpen 20:54, 24 October 2005 (UTC)
- My contributions speak for themselves, Andriy. So do yours. I'll try to resist the urge in the future. —Michael Z. 2005-10-24 21:01 Z
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[edit] Renaming
Dear Andrew Alexander, I could not possibly care less about Russian vs Ukrainian names on Wikipedia. However, I do care about the fact that the names of the archaeology articles should correspond to current terminology. Please, read this.--Wiglaf 10:30, 23 October 2005 (UTC)
- Dear Wiglaf, as you probably remamber, I was also doing similar changes. It would be nice if you provide any reference concerning that "Chernyakhov" is indeed the current terminology. What I see on the page, even good experts in the field misspell it as "Chernyakovo", which has nothing to do both with Ukrainian and Russian spellings. It looks like any spelling is not common yet and the best choice is just to stick at the correct name of the village. Regards, --AndriyK 10:43, 23 October 2005 (UTC)
- I have seen several spelling versions of the name. However, all of them are transliterations of the Russian name, and I so chose the standard transliteration of cyrillic. It may be hard for you to accept, but the Russian form of the name is the conventional name used for this culture, and so it is the form that will be used.--Wiglaf 10:54, 23 October 2005 (UTC)
- Still, it would be nice to provide any referencies.--AndriyK 11:07, 23 October 2005 (UTC)
- Some English language sources use also Cherniakhiv.--AndriyK 11:10, 23 October 2005 (UTC)
- It may be reasonable to continue the discussion at the corresponding talk page?--AndriyK 11:16, 23 October 2005 (UTC)
- The English language source you cited is Ukrainian. At the moment, I am busy IRL, but I'll get back to you later tonight, with non-Ukrainian sources. Best,--Wiglaf 13:07, 23 October 2005 (UTC)
- The source I cited is Canadian, in fact. There are indded Ukrainian English-language sources, but I did not cite them. See you. --AndriyK 15:14, 23 October 2005 (UTC)
- I have seen several spelling versions of the name. However, all of them are transliterations of the Russian name, and I so chose the standard transliteration of cyrillic. It may be hard for you to accept, but the Russian form of the name is the conventional name used for this culture, and so it is the form that will be used.--Wiglaf 10:54, 23 October 2005 (UTC)
- Dear Wiglaf, thanks for your reply. I never thought that correcting to the right spelling of a geographical name could be considered propaganda. In fact I tried to reduce the amount of bias by providing both names. Chernyakhiv has not been renamed, it always was Cherniakhiv, at least all the old people in and around that village call it that name. It is how the name is now reading on the international maps. However, I don't want to be confrontational about it either. Simply thought that calling it solely a Russian name used by the Soviet propaganda machine seemed not in line with Wikipedia policies because of that. Best regards --Andrew Alexander 17:42, 23 October 2005 (UTC)
- Please, see my answer below.--Wiglaf 19:03, 23 October 2005 (UTC)
[edit] Chernyakhiv culture
I also tried to move the article according to the correct name of the site in Ukraine, but I've got the responce that "Chernyakhov culture" is the common English name for the term. I hardly believe it: in fact, some authors (even those considered to be very good experts in the field) misspell it even as "chernyakovo culture". Our opponents do not provide any refference confirming that "Chernyakhov culture" is widelly used. On the other hand, it would be nice if we could provide a reference to a map or a book using "Chernyakhiv". Otherewise we'll likely defeat. Regards, --AndriyK 10:37, 23 October 2005 (UTC)
- AndriyK, I don't think that the translated Encyclopedia of Ukraine counts as an authority of what is the most conventional name in the English language. And for both of you I provide a few references. Here is a Swedish book using the name: Kaliff, Anders: Gothic Connections. Contacts between eastern Scandinavia and the southern Baltic coast 1000 BC – 500 AD. 2001. Here are a few sites mentioning the culture: Newsletter of the Early Slavic Studies Association Volume 12 Number 2 October 1999,THE CHORA OF OLBIA PONTICA: THE MAIN PROBLEMS1 S.D. KRYZHITSKII, The Making of the Slavs, Valentyn Stetsyuk, Research of Prehistoric Ethnogenetic Processes in Eastern Europe, Book 2, Lviv 2003, Chapter 7. Slavic Peoples, Annales du 14e Congrès de l'Association Internationale pour l'Histoire du Verre : Venezia Milano 1998. As you can see, there is no problem finding this name on the Internet, in this form. Just because it is the conventional name. If you feel uncomfortable with the culture having a Russian form, I am deeply sorry, but that is not what the naming is about. A Wikipedia article is to have the most conventional name in the English language for the simple reason that it is an encyclopedia.--Wiglaf 19:01, 23 October 2005 (UTC)
- Wiglaf, the name of the culture is the name of the village. In fact almost any reference to that culture mentions the village in Ukraine. The village name in English is Chernyakhiv. It is how the culture is now called and will continuted to be called in Ukraine as well as in some sources outside of Ukraine. Providing two names - old Soviet one and new Ukrainian on that Wikipedia page seems least biased. I hope for your fair and balanced review of that subject. Thanks --Andrew Alexander 19:13, 23 October 2005 (UTC)
- You are misunderstanding the derivational relationship between the village name and the culture. Yes, the culture was named after the village, but the name of the culture now exists in the English language independently of the village from which it took its name. This is English language Wikipedia, where we use conventional English names where possible. The Ukrainian name is only relevant as etymology.--Wiglaf 19:47, 23 October 2005 (UTC)
- Dear Wiglaf, sorry if it sounded like I would like to change the name of the culture. I only wanted to bring to your attention the fact that historians in Ukraine (and some outside) now call that culture the actual name of the village it was found at. To avoid confusion and possible bias there was a suggestion to list both names. We need to acknowledge the fact that the culture belongs to the history of Ukraine. It is just as much a national treasure as it is an international history item. I know Ukrainians will not agree to call their treasure a misplaced Russian name. The culture artifacts are stored in Ukrainian museums and researched by Ukrainian archeologists. Andrew Alexander 20:13, 23 October 2005 (UTC)
- You are misunderstanding the derivational relationship between the village name and the culture. Yes, the culture was named after the village, but the name of the culture now exists in the English language independently of the village from which it took its name. This is English language Wikipedia, where we use conventional English names where possible. The Ukrainian name is only relevant as etymology.--Wiglaf 19:47, 23 October 2005 (UTC)
- Wiglaf, the name of the culture is the name of the village. In fact almost any reference to that culture mentions the village in Ukraine. The village name in English is Chernyakhiv. It is how the culture is now called and will continuted to be called in Ukraine as well as in some sources outside of Ukraine. Providing two names - old Soviet one and new Ukrainian on that Wikipedia page seems least biased. I hope for your fair and balanced review of that subject. Thanks --Andrew Alexander 19:13, 23 October 2005 (UTC)
Now I see, the spelling "Chernyakhov" is indded more common in the academic community that other ones. --AndriyK 19:43, 23 October 2005 (UTC)
[edit] Names
I don't really care whether the article name uses Chernyakhiv, Chernyakhov, Chernjakhovo, Tchernjachow, etc. I understand the argument for Chernyakhiv and on the whole support it (in title and article). But please check the talk pages and get, if not agreement, then an absence of objections. Jacob Haller 19:55, 15 February 2007 (UTC)
[edit] Most common English spellings
The most common seem to be 'Chernyakov' or 'Chernyakhov' and thus this article is alright. I rarely see 'Chernyakhiv' used.DR. Martin Hesselius 18:54, 5 May 2007 (UTC)
