Talk:Chen Shui-bian

From Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

This article is within the scope of WikiProject Biography. For more information, visit the project page.
Biography Portal
B This article has been rated as B-Class on the project's quality scale. [FAQ]
This article is supported by the Politics and government work group.
Chen Shui-bian is within the scope of WikiProject Taiwan, a project to improve all Taiwan-related articles. If you would like to help improve this and other Taiwan-related articles, please join the project. All interested editors are welcome.
B This article has been rated as B-Class on the quality scale.
Top This article has been rated as top-importance on the importance scale.
This article is within the scope of WikiProject Taiwanese politics, an attempt to build a comprehensive and detailed guide to the politics of Taiwan. If you would like to participate, please join the project
B This article has been rated as B-Class on the quality scale.
Top This article has been rated as Top-importance for this Project's importance scale.


Contents

[edit] Riots after 2004 election

There were indeed riots that included violence after the 2004 election that were led and encouraged by the "Pan Blue" factions. Here is but one source: riot: http://query.nytimes.com/gst/fullpage.html?res=9D04E7DF1138F932A25757C0A9629C8B63 Since it is stated as fact even by the New York Times, it should remain inside the article. There have been multiple attempts to censor this, and censoring it is no good. --Shrimpcrackers (talk) 13:17, 18 February 2008 (UTC)


News This page has been cited as a source by a media organization. The citation is in:

Maybe I'm misremembering things but....

I think it's important to mention that the street was originally named 'Long Live Chiang Kai-Shek Street' rather than merely Chiang Kai-Shek Street. This made the street renaming less controversial than it otherwise would have been. Also. he renamed a few other streets Shi-Min Jie for example.... -- Roadrunner

OK..my bad. I didn't think they would keep 'Long Live Chiang Kai-Shek Street' around for so long after his death. I really don't know this.
Jiang 05:41 19 Jun 2003 (UTC)
A Huaxia Economics article wrote that it was: Kuan-ch'ien Road (館前路) → Fu-ch'ien Road (府前路) → Chieh-shou Road (介壽路) → Ketagalan Avenue (凱達格蘭大道).
Despite the article's informal tone and bias, I believe the names are correct. Although it seems to have missed Chiang Kai-shek Street (?蔣介石路?) that Roadrunner spoke of.
--Menchi 07:06 19 Jun 2003 (UTC)
Ketagalan Avenue is an east-west road. Kuan-ch'ien Road now is a south-north road, so the same road name has been relocated. Likewise, Chungcheng Road (中正路) was in central Taipei, but it has been renamed and today's Chungcheng Road is in Shihlin, northern Taipei. As the external link is now broken, I have found a new one at http://www.huaxia.com/tw/tdyh/msj/00026411.html .--Jusjih 01:53, 21 February 2006 (UTC)

What's wrong with his hair? It looks fake.

The aboriginal names of Chen Shui-bian need to be explained rather than just listed on the page (Why has he been given them? When was he given them? Who gave them to him? etc.) --Lowellian 17:55, Mar 16, 2004 (UTC)

The Taipei Times article answers your questions. I think they should be removed because they were only given recently as a political gesture and are never used. They carry no prominence and add little informational value. --Jiang 05:21, 30 Mar 2004 (UTC)

I think leaving them is okay, as long as they're accurate and it's clear what they are. Even if they are a political gesture, it's still information. --Lowellian 19:41, Mar 30, 2004 (UTC)

It's information, but useless information. As an encyclopedia, we should only mention the important points, not obscure details. There's a lot more other things we can cover. Leaving them there might lead people to believe that they're actually significant when theyre not. --Jiang 21:14, 30 Mar 2004 (UTC)


Removed statement on the 3/29 interview with the Washington Post as this is a bit misleading. Chen didn't say that he planned to "make" Taiwan an independent, sovereign nation. His position and that of the DPP has always been that Taiwan is already an independent and sovereign nation.

His position has a whole lot of complex implications, which will take a paragraph or two to explain.

Remember that he is a lawyer.

Roadrunner 12:35, 21 May 2004 (UTC)

I tried to write a NPOV summary of his positions and their implications. Someone needs to proofread for NPOV as I completely detest Chen Shuibian and some of that might have leaked through.

My POV summary of "Interpretation of his actions" would read "Chen Shuibian is either evil or stupid, and in either case he is a very dangerous man."

Roadrunner 15:20, 21 May 2004 (UTC)

I think we have a vandal, but I'll offer one chance for an explanation. By what criterion is CSB a communist? Among all of the nasty things his political opponents accuse him of, being a communist is not one of them.

If you change the article again without any sort of explanation, I'll block your IP.

Roadrunner 03:44, 23 May 2004 (UTC)

Yep he's definitely a vandal. There's absolutely no communism/capitalism discussion in Taiwan politics. It's all about pro or anti-independence. Economically, the focus has been on opening more opportunity for Taiwanese business to establish bases in China, and both parties like promising pork barrels to win constituencies. Chen is definitely NOT a communist. Just because he's anti KMT doesnt mean he's a communist. Wareware 00:34, 24 May 2004 (UTC)

Absolutely. In fact being a anti-KMT makes him even more diffrent to the communist. He is certainly a patriot of Taiwan.--68.98.154.196 01:03, 12 December 2005 (UTC)From Taiwan


[edit] Scandals

Something needs to be done about this passage: "Another small party that backed Chen previously, Taiwan Solidarity Union, said Friday they would likely to support the upcoming recall measure. If the recall passed, it would be up to the voters to decide Chen's fate in an island-wide referendum.

Leaders of the Democratic Progressive Party met together on Friday to discuss the unfavorable charges."

Apart from the fact that this looks like it has been cut-and-pasted from elsewhere, which Friday is Friday? This doesn't belong in an encyclopedia! —Preceding unsigned comment added by 195.194.252.133 (talk) 13:13, 23 September 2007 (UTC)

[edit] notoriety for his forceful and "colorful" arguments?

Questionable characterization below:

While his client Huang Hsin-chieh...and seven co-defendants...were all found guilty, Chen gained notoriety for his forceful and colorful arguments. He has stated that it was during this period that he realized the unfairness of the political system in Taiwan and became politically active as a member of the Tangwai movement.

I fail to see how "forceful and colorful arguments" from a lawyer constitute or lead to "notoriety". And if they did, where did he "gain" this notoriety from, perhaps the judge sitting on the military court? Or supporters? In the interest of brevity and to avoid the need to further contextualize the claim, I am going to change this to "...Chen came to be known for..." A-giau 00:37, 27 Jul 2004 (UTC)

[edit] Affair with aide

Why couldn't I find anything about Chen's reported affair with pretty aide Hsiao Bikim? --Vladko 16:31, 10 July 2005 (UTC)

Because this has been ruled by the court as unprovable. Besides, it brought more benefit towards Hsiao for her celebrity status than to Chen, so it was more important to Hsiao than to Chen. However, you can read more about this on Hsiao's page. Bobbybuilder 03:02, 11 July 2005 (UTC)

[edit] Additions

This article doesn't seem to address: 1) Chen's use of Taiwanese language/dialect in speeches; 2) his status in regard to ethnic divisions/tensions in Taiwan. Badagnani 03:34, 26 June 2006 (UTC)

Taiwanese dialect, how different is it from the dialect spoken on Fujian? i can understand what he is saying so is it even Taiwanese? has the 'Taiwan seperatist' hajacking our identity for their own agenda? or is it an unfortunate conquences of mass media misinfomation as the world became more verse with Taiwan then Fujian, see it uniquely Taiwanese? Akinkhoo 14:47, 29 January 2007 (UTC)
I guess the media likes reporting on democratic countries. ;) Jumping cheese Cont@ct 01:47, 30 January 2007 (UTC)
Taiwanese dialect is different, read the article. I think they're similar in a way, because they sound the same, but they are a little different.--Jerrypp772000 02:32, 31 January 2007 (UTC)
Taiwanese dialect has some Japanese elements in it (legacy of the Japanese rule), the Min-nan dialect does not. Also, given the fact that Taiwan and Fujian has been ruled separately with communication and connection virtually cut off for more than 50 years (or 100, if includes the time under Japanese rule), it is natural that the local dialects of the two developed in different directions. Kc0616 1:01, 11 April 2007 (UTC)
That doesn't make any sense at all. People in every place may speak a little different, does that make everybody speaking a different "dialect"? And the mandarin (Guoyu) spoken by Taiwanese and mainland Chinese and Hongkongnese sound different -- are they different "dialect" of mandarin?24.11.175.146 (talk) 16:29, 28 April 2008 (UTC)

[edit] The so called Recall

To be honest, i found there is no any Neutral point of view in this article especially the "recall" part. In Taiwan the referendum law, yet this law passed by the pan-blue majority congress, does not apply to the case of removing The Taiwan President from office. For this the original author had already failed to mention and try to misguide reader of Wikipedia by not telling the whole truth. 2nd this motion is NOT recall but rather "impeachment", the goal of this motion is to impeach Mr. Chen via congress NOT by referendum through public vote because there is NO law in Taiwan at this moment allow to do so in order to remove Taiwan president from office. yet the original author failed to mention this again. Why i am not surprised at all.

In Taiwan, congress has right to impeach President if Presdient has anything violate the law just like US congress can but recall. So Please do not MISLEADING reader of Wikipedia. Neutral point of view ? i found this is quite a funny point. So far base on what evidence Mr. Chen has violated any Taiwan law that Taiwan congress can impeach him? Do we see the original author mention about any evidence?

Hello? Neutral point of view?! anyone? --[[User:] 06:51, 19 August 2006 (UTC)

That is your view; the actuality of your view has never been ruled on by the courts, and therefore remains undetermined. An assertion that the attempted recall is illegal is therefore not NPOV. --Nlu (talk) 07:00, 19 August 2006 (UTC)

Well. talking about "rule by the courts",Maybe Mr.(or Ms.) Nlu can show us, all reader of Wikipedia, where we can find the Taiwan law mention about to remove The Taiwan President through "recall" or referendum? NPOV? Hello? NPOV == Nlu's view?"' Hahahaha! Why i am not surprised at all [[User:] 07:11, 19 August 2006 (UTC)

I did not say that the law was constitutional; saying that it has not been ruled unconstitutional is not the same as saying that it is constitutional. --Nlu (talk) 07:24, 19 August 2006 (UTC)

I guess we are not living at same earth. Hahaha! If there is NO such law, why we have "constitutional" or "un-constitutional"? constitutional of what? un-constitutional of what? thin air? You need to have a law first then we can talk about if it is constitutional or un-constitutional. Again, Why i am not surprised at all. Mr.(or Ms.) Nlu, if you can do us, readers of Wikipedia, a big favor just show us the dame law about how to remove Taiwan president by "recall" or referendum, i will be very happy to apply. NPOV should base on facts and truth not imagination, Wikipedia is NOT a place for doing propaganda, for the name sake of Wikipedia. --[[User:] 07:37, 19 August 2006 (UTC)

Read the President Election and Recall law of the Republic of China . Chapter 4 , Section 70.
The congress can recall the president via purpose by 1/4 of its members , and pass by 2/3 its members.
Once the recall act passed in the Congress , the case will transfer to Centeral Election Committe to host a vote decide by people to let the president go or not. 163.28.81.2 03:29, 18 October 2006 (UTC)

[edit] About the Mayor of Taipei

In this portion, the original author also failed to mention at end of Chen's first term as mayor of taipei, he has more than 80% approval rate that is never seen in the history of Taipei especially for the people-elected mayor. Ethnic concentration as well as more pro-pan-blue voters in city of Taipei had decided to choose a new mayor from pan-blue, the current Mayor Ma, instead of the one with high approval rate. When talking about this part of history, I suggest this part of fact should not be left out.

How good Mayor Ma is doing after replaced Mr. Chen as mayor of taipei? You can check out the link of Mayor Ma embedded in this article. And just a friendly reminder, don't be surprised to see many Mr. Ma's "scandal" in that link had been removed. Another sign to show you when reading this kind of controversial article at wikipedia used your best judgement and checkout more information before you jump into conclusion. There are peoples out there their main jobs are creating propaganda to promote or dis-credit a person. [[User:] 19:42, 19 August 2006 (UTC)

    • "Ethnic concentration as well as more pro-pan-blue voters in city of Taipei had decided to choose a new mayor from pan-blue"?? I suggest you keep your good opinion to yourself and leave the encyclopaedia to someone who can tell facts from opinions. By the way, sign after you leave a message. Machie 01:57, 11 September 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Ceding of powers?

Did he cede some powers to the Prime Minister following the recent protests? I can't find anything about this in the article. Badagnani 04:24, 8 November 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Need Chen Shui-bian Picture

We need to get a Chen Shui-bian photograph. I think the Republic of China government provides a picture and it is fair use. Please get that old picture back up. -Nationalist 06:30, 3 January 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Protection

Please stop the edit warring on whether to refer to his birth place as "Taiwan" or as "Taiwan Province, Republic of China." This really needs a community consensus, and the current edit war is not productive. Please talk this through. --Nlu (talk) 05:58, 10 January 2007 (UTC)

Taiwan Province, Republic of China is the correct factual way. After all, there is no such country as Taiwan. The country is the Republic of China. I see no reason why Taiwan Province, Republic of China is not okay. -Nationalist 07:34, 10 January 2007 (UTC)
It's extremely political. It's better to be vague regarding the political status than taking a stance. Jumping cheese Cont@ct 10:01, 10 January 2007 (UTC)
Republic of China(ROC) does have a Taiwan province,which covers most of ROC, but whats the point of that? Vinson —Preceding unsigned comment added by 24.87.12.213 (talk) 03:05, 4 October 2007 (UTC)

Why should we be vague? Why not recognize that his birth place is Taiwan Province, Republic of China. That is the real fact. It is indisputable. The government on Taiwan is called the Republic of China. Ask Chen Shui-bian himself. He is President of the Republic of China! Just having Taiwan makes it sound like Taiwan is an independent nation, which is not true. The ROC governs it. -Nationalist 03:26, 11 January 2007 (UTC)

"Taiwan Province" throws it off. Jumping cheese Cont@ct 04:37, 11 January 2007 (UTC)

I have no strong opinion on this -- but obviously you guys do. May I propose, "Tainan County, the Republic of China" as the alternative? --Nlu (talk) 05:18, 11 January 2007 (UTC)

See Talk:Taiwan and Talk:Republic of China. There's enough archives of discussions on the the proper name of "Taiwan" to keep you busy for days. The consensus (not really, still some complaints) is basically Taiwan for the island and ROC for the government that administers Taiwan. So...Taiwan is sometimes referred to as "Republic of China (Taiwan)" to appease both sides. People usually know what Taiwan is, but not ROC. Jumping cheese Cont@ct 05:58, 11 January 2007 (UTC)
By having the paranthesis next (Taiwan), after Republic of China. It makes it as though ROC = Taiwan. This is not true. I like Nlu's plan. But I do not like Republic of China (Taiwan). -Nationalist 01:09, 13 January 2007 (UTC)
It's like ROC a.k.a. Taiwan. People might not know what ROC is, but the name Taiwan is well recognized. Jumping cheese Cont@ct 05:06, 13 January 2007 (UTC)
Again you are equalling ROC to Taiwan. That is not true. AKA is also known as. which is equals. But it ROC does not equal Taiwan. Republic of China on Taiwan is a better way to put it. -Nationalist 06:03, 13 January 2007 (UTC)
as much as i believe taiwan is not a state, i don't see why ROC(Taiwan)cannot be used. ROC = Taiwan is phyiscally true since it is the only area under ROC control. and it make it easier to indentify on the map. removing taiwan doesn't make sense as ROC is not a place; while using taiwan province kinda lead to confusion as to whether ROC control more than 1 province or something (which i find even more offensive and ugly for both sides) Akinkhoo 14:03, 16 January 2007 (UTC)
ROC is known as Taiwan, and Chen is born in Taiwan no matter what. Some of you are saying Taiwan isn't a country, it is governed by the ROC, it's like saying South Korea isn't a country, but is governed by the ROK. Taiwan Province, ROC would only make it really confusing. I think the best would be simply Taiwan, or ROC (Taiwan).--Jerrypp772000 20:43, 17 January 2007 (UTC)

Taiwan is governed as Taiwan Province, Republic of China. I think we can put Tainan County, Taiwan, Republic of China. That is a good compromise. ROC (Taiwan) only equates ROC to Taiwan, but that is not true-Nationalist 02:36, 18 January 2007 (UTC)

Again, ROC is commonly known as Taiwan. Let's give you another example, Ireland. The Republic of Ireland is known as Ireland, even though it doesn't govern the whole island. Saying Taiwan isn't a country is like saying China isn't a country, which is just ridiculous.--Jerrypp772000 21:12, 18 January 2007 (UTC)

The Republic of China also administers parts of Fuchien Province. Fuchien is not considered as Taiwan. Therefore, saying Taiwan wouldn't work. Fuchien is not part of Taiwan. The Constitution of Ireland says Ireland in it. So that's fine. But look at the ROC Constitution. It says ROC Republic of China, NOT TAIWAN. There is NO Republic of Taiwan. It is the REPUBLIC OF CHINA. -Nationalist 01:45, 19 January 2007 (UTC)

This is like how China is typically called China, not the People's Republic of China. Jumping cheese Cont@ct 05:12, 19 January 2007 (UTC)
I am NOT trying to push a view that Taiwan is part of the People's Republic of China. No Definitely NOT. I am a staunch supporter of Taiwan and the Republic of China. I just want to reflect on the true facts. Even though the ROC is nowadays commonly known as Taiwan, it is still appropriate to make it known that Taiwan is part of the Republic of China and that the actual name of the country is ROC. Now, since ROC will be linked to the Wiki article, people will read it and understand that there is The Republic of China, based on Taiwan, and the Communist mainland People's Republic of China. If we just have Taiwan Taiwan and more Taiwan, it doesn't change anyone's mind. We need to clarify to Wiki readers about the two China's. -Nationalist 05:35, 19 January 2007 (UTC)

http://www.gio.gov.tw/taiwan-website/5-gp/president.htm Says "President of the Republic of China (Taiwan)." Just write it like that. --Borgarde 07:47, 27 January 2007 (UTC)

Yeah, that would be fine, and it also says in the article President of the Republic of China that it is also commonly called President of Taiwan outside of the ROC.--Jerrypp772000 19:52, 27 January 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Edit Request

{{Editprotected}}

The template Template:Infobox Mayor has been merged into Template:Infobox Officeholder. This is the last page that needs to be updated. Could you please update the infobox at the top of the page with the following code and then remove the outdated Infobox Mayor code from the top of this section. VerruckteDan 18:17, 3 February 2007 (UTC)

{{Infobox President
| name                = Chen Shui-bian
| image               =
| caption             =
| order               = [[President of the Republic of China]]
| term_start          = [[20 May]], [[2000]]
| term_end            =
| vicepresident       = [[Annette Lu]]
| predecessor         = [[Lee Teng-hui]]
| successor           =
| order2              = [[Mayor of Taipei|Mayor]] of [[Taipei]]
| term_start2         = [[25 December]], [[1994]]
| term_end2           = [[25 December]], [[1998]]
| predecessor2        = [[Huang Ta-chou]]
| successor2          = [[Ma Ying-jeou]]
| birth_date          = [[12 October]], [[1950]]
| birth_place         = [[Guantian]], [[Tainan County|Tainan]], [[Taiwan]]
| death_date          =
| death_place         =
| constituency        =
| party               = [[Democratic Progressive Party]]
| spouse              = [[Wu Shu-chen]]
| profession          =
| religion            =
| signature           =
| footnotes           =
}}
Y Done, let me know if there are any other issues. ---J.S (T/C/WRE) 02:43, 4 February 2007 (UTC)
Thanks, it looks good. VerruckteDan 10:32, 4 February 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Picture of the president

Hi, i am quite new on this kind of stuff, but why there isn't a photo of Chen Sui bian on the template article? i think it would be nice to see at least how does his face looks like =) --HappyApple 09:09, 18 February 2007 (UTC).

Copyright issues...had a pic, but it got deleted. =( Jumping cheese Cont@ct 11:18, 18 February 2007 (UTC)

[edit] nth "term" president

As discussed in the Talk:Lee_Teng-hui page, when saying in English that someone is the nth president, you are counting the number of people who have held the office, not the number of terms of office. Saying, for example, that Chen is the 10th and 11th president makes no sense in English. He can't be both because if he were, he would only be the 10th president. The president who followed him would be the 11th president no matter how long or for how many terms Chen served.

Apparently the convention in Taiwan for numbering presidents is to use the number of terms, but this is an English-language Wiki, so we must say things that make sense in English. So we cannot say Chen was the 10th and 11th President. We have to say that he served the 10th and 11th terms. Readin (talk) 22:59, 13 January 2008 (UTC)

Which makes less sense than the former proposal. Which is why the majority of officeholders don't have numbers anymore. Therequiembellishere (talk) 22:57, 18 January 2008 (UTC)
What was the former proposal?Readin (talk) 23:05, 18 January 2008 (UTC)
The one your arguing against, "nth". Therequiembellishere (talk) 23:11, 18 January 2008 (UTC)
I'm ok with "nth" if it's followed by the word "term" if terms are what are being counted.Readin (talk) 23:16, 18 January 2008 (UTC)
That's exactly the problem, The 5th President makes a higher amount of sense than 5th term President. However, due to to confusions with people who hold the office more than once, disputed officeholders, multiple officeholders, innumerable officeholders, people who contest the officeholder and acting, provisional, caretaking, interim and regent officeholders (and mixes of these) the numbers have been removed because they clutter the infobox and cause confusion, especially when the number itself is confused because of the above examples. Chen fits the bill for more than one of these so it would be best to strike these from the box altogether. Therequiembellishere (talk) —Preceding comment was added at 23:23, 18 January 2008 (UTC)
Removing them altogether is ok with me too. I don't see that saying someone is the nth president is anything more than trivia unless the person is very early in the list. Knowing that George Washington was the 1st president is important. Knowing that Lincoln was the 16th president is just trivia. Readin (talk) 01:36, 19 January 2008 (UTC)

Exactly. Am I allowed to remove them now? Therequiembellishere (talk) 01:38, 19 January 2008 (UTC)

I won't stop you or revert the edit, but I can't promise that no one else like (User:Joseph_Solis_in_Australia or Iamwisesun) will revert it. Readin (talk) 01:52, 19 January 2008 (UTC)

Alright, thank you. I'll send them here, I guess. Therequiembellishere (talk) 02:17, 19 January 2008 (UTC)

[edit] Ethnic Origin

What ethnic group Mr. Chen belongs to? Is he an Han Chinese or native Taiwanese? 35.11.39.19 (talk) 21:08, 25 March 2008 (UTC)

[edit] Controversy

Taiwanese Prosecutors on May 20, 2008 named Chen suspect in a $ 450,000 fraud case, after he lost presidential immunity. Specifically, the investigation was for his role in the handling of a special presidential fund used to pursue Taiwan's foreign diplomacy. The Supreme Prosecutor's Office stated that: "We have formally started the investigation of the special expenses case concerning former president Chen.The office has assigned ... a seven-member investigative unit to take charge of the case."news.bbc.co.uk, Taiwan ex-leader faces graft caseap.google.com, Taiwan investigating ex-President Chen Shui-bian --Florentino floro (talk) 11:45, 20 May 2008 (UTC)