Talk:Cheesesteak/Archive 1

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Archive This is an archive of past discussions. Do not edit the contents of this page. If you wish to start a new discussion or revive an old one, please do so on the current talk page.

Contents

The recent merge

Alkivar asked me about the merge. My reply:

The Cheesesteak article with the merge is a convenient size for any browser and connection speed. Having all the information on a single page is a convenience. In the case of two competitors it's worthwhile to read the two related paragraphs at a glance.

In doing the merge I found that approximately 1/3 of the material in the separate articles was redundant and repetitive.

People seeking information on a specific restaurant will find it via the redirects. Basically what we now have is like an article in a traditional encyclopedia: one article that covers an integral topic with several index entries (redirects) to enable subtopics to be found directly.

I can see absolutely no advantage to splitting this article out into separate articles. Dpbsmith (talk) 11:33, 26 Mar 2005 (UTC)

Comments moved from article

Moving this here from the bottom of the article. I didn't write it. — mendel ☎ 17:17, August 16, 2005 (UTC)

Tony Luke's outdoor sandwich shop on Oregon Avenue is a uniquely Philly experience. Cops and cabbies, dock workers and school marms, and lawyers in pin stripe suits mulling over their legal briefs queue up along the sidewalk, prepared to wait half a lunch hour for such tasty fare. Don't forget to try the "green sandwich", a robust combination of broccoli rabe (bitter broccoli) sauteed with carmelized onions, enraged by red pepper flakes (pepperoncini), and crowned with a slice of imported sharp provolone. This taste-bud popping melange is wrapped in an crisp Italian roll (such as only to be found in Philadelphia). Now that's a sandwich worth writing home about. Just ask my sister Veronica.

Is Veronica available? More seriously, there seems to be a lot of commentary like this inserted into this article rather regularly; maybe it's not such a good idea to have information on individual restaurants included? siafu 17:26, 16 August 2005 (UTC)

Let's cite sources

I take no position on the great controversy over "who put the cheese in the cheesesteak." But I am getting very tired of editors making changes to this page on their own personal authority and citing no sources, particularly with regard to competing claims of rival establishments.

An anon snipped this, giving no reason:

The sidewalk, roof, and tables around Geno's are decorated with hundreds of autographed and framed photos and memorabilia of celebrities who have patronized the venue. Since Geno's is opened 24 hours a day, the eating area on the adjacent sidewalk never needs to be locked up, and is open to the air.

These seem like perfectly reasonable things to say. If true, not outrageously promotional. Is Geno's rival open 24 hours? If not, that's a legitimately notable fact about Geno's.

This was also snipped:

Vento claims to have come up with the idea of adding cheese to the mix.

And the sentence "However that is not true..." was added to this paragraph.

Olivieri's initial creation may simply have been a steak sandwich, since the innovation of adding cheese, now standard, is claimed by rival Geno's Steaks. However that is not true. Pat's did in fact always include cheese. Vento has since admitted he made up that story.

Very interesting if properly referenced. But I'd like to know where and when Vento made that admission.

I'm very open to all this stuff being in the article. I don't live in Philadelphia and I'm not a Pat's or Geno's partisan. But we can just _say_ stuff in the article like this. (Yes, I know, the article already does have badly-sourced statements in it. We need to fix them.)

You can cite anything; a local newspaper article. Heck, you can cite what it says on a Pat's or Geno's menu, if those menus say anything. But you have to cite something.

For the time being I'm reverting these changes and indicating simply that the issue is disputed.

Dpbsmith (talk) 12:34, 16 September 2005 (UTC)

John Kerry

Shouldn't some mention be made of the media coverage of US presidential candidate John Kerry's comments on the cheesesteak (his perceptions of the appropriate cheese to be used)? Certainly has a bit of historical/political relevance, enough to mention here --Dpr 08:21, 2 October 2005 (UTC)

The article used to contain the following. It was removed in April, not by me.

During a campaign stop in Philadelphia on August 11, 2003, Democratic presidential candidate John Kerry requested a cheesesteak with Swiss cheese at Pat's Steaks (Cheesesteak bites Kerry). In political terms, this nontraditional choice was a serious miscalculation, as it could help reinforce images of Kerry as effete, aloof, and out of touch with the average American. The owner of Pat's Steaks convinced Kerry to change his order, but the incident nevertheless earned Kerry some ridicule in the press.

The feeling was that the article was about cheesesteaks, not politics. Nobody seemed to object at the time. The text above probably spends too much time explaining the event; it gives me the impression that the editor was trying to say something about Kerry, not something about cheesesteak.

I don't have very strong feelings one way or the other. I'm inclined to think that if the incident was not important enough to mention in John Kerry presidential campaign, 2004, which it isn't, it's not important enough to mention here. If it had been mentioned in John Kerry presidential campaign, 2004 it could have been mentioned briefly here and linked. If it's going to be mentioned at all, I think it could be mentioned briefly, e.g. "During the 2004 presidential campaign, Kerry subjected himself to ridicule by ordering a cheesesteak with Swiss cheese" together with a suitable source citation. Dpbsmith (talk) 18:13, 2 October 2005 (UTC)

I think I initially added mention of Kerry since it was the most credable source I knew of that Cheez Whiz was the chease product of choise for the conesseur. Since the claim seemed dubious, I thought (and still think) the mention of Kerry is appropriate in that it seems pretty unequivecable, despite the fact that the original Cheesesteak didn't have Whiz since it hadn't yet been invented. —BenFrantzDale 00:34, 3 October 2005 (UTC)
Everyone's logic is pretty sound, and it doesn't seem like a momentously important fact, but I'm going to add one or two sentences. If everyone really disagrees, take it back out. --Dpr 05:11, 3 October 2005 (UTC)
Is your link correct? I created an account at philly.com but when I click on http://www.philly.com/mld/philly/news/local/6528601.htm I get "the requested article was not found." I wanted to see the press's take on it. I'd be tempted to say that he "ill-advisedly" ordered it with Swiss cheese. The question I have is, what even put the idea of Swiss cheese into his head? I have to see what choices are offered for "steak bombs" locally (Boston area). And, what's so effete about Swiss cheese? I thought American and Swiss were the two default cheese options. It's not as if he'd ordered Brie... Dpbsmith (talk) 14:29, 3 October 2005 (UTC)
Archive.org's wayback machine to the rescue.... http://web.archive.org/web/20041010085705/http://www.philly.com/mld/philly/news/local/6528601.htm Dpbsmith (talk) 14:35, 3 October 2005 (UTC)
Dpbsmith--thanks for your assistance. Sorry about the link, I just cut and pasted what had been there. I hope you don't mind my changes--I'm just trying to make it a little less colloquial...I'm sure you didn't mean it to be POV but you never know what people will say--better to err on the side of caution. Is Swiss so effete? Well, everything is relative, my friend...the residents of the City of Brotherly love must certainly think it to be so...who knows...it's all about context. Thanks again --01:44, 4 October 2005 (UTC)
Your edit is fine with me. The important thing is that the emphasis should be "What cheeses are proper, as illustrated by the Kerry incident" rather than "How unmanly Kerry is, as illustrated by the cheesesteak incident." Cheers! Dpbsmith (talk) 12:30, 4 October 2005 (UTC)

Geno's politics

Should the Geno's section include a mention of the shop's political views? When I was there (buying a coke for a friend- we were really eating at Pat's) the whole Mumia Abu-Jamal issue seemed pretty prominent.. there was some display and all the employees were wearing shirts calling for tougher punishment for him. Being a young'n and non-native to Philly, I didn't know who he was, so I asked a friend and he explained and said it was something many people felt strongly about. 208.59.171.97 21:36, 10 January 2006 (UTC)

Well, the first question is: can you find a verifiable source that you can cite, other than your own personal observations? Has any newspaper (the Yale campus newspaper would be fine) mentioned it? If you can't find a source, then you shouldn't put it in, period.
My personal opinion is that it's mildly interesting, and if you can cite a source, well, as long as the article is going to describe individual cheesesteak eateries, if the management of Geno's has its employees wear shirts with a political message, that's just as germane to Geno's as the decor or the origin of their name.
On the other hand it has nothing to do with cheesesteak.
I say if you can cite a source, Wikipedia:Be bold and go for it... but I can't promise other editors might not take it out. Dpbsmith (talk) 23:50, 10 January 2006 (UTC)
Actually I went ahead and put this in:
In Philadelphia, in the cause celebré of Mumia Abu-Jamal, convicted for the murder of police officer Daniel Faulkner, Joe Vento weighs in on the side of Faulkner's family. The family hopes to prevent Abu-Jamal from being freed or retried, and to secure his execution. Toward this end, Geno's has sponsored fundraising events such as the 2000 First Annual Justice For Daniel Faulkner Block Party and an annual Daniel Faulkner Memorial Motorcycle Run.
If people think this is too much, I could put most of it in the Daniel Faulkner article and put a short mention and a link here.
Dpbsmith (talk) 00:13, 11 January 2006 (UTC)

Late Night Cheesesteaks

Is there anything mentioned about how late both Pats and Genos are open? I personally dont know their hours, but I have gone various times at two or three in the morning and there has literally been a 45 minute wait. It is definitly something worth mentioning possibly in the "Famous Philadelphia cheesesteak eateries" section right before the Pats section. --Msc44 00:19, 19 January 2006 (UTC) I did some research, Pats and Genos are both open 24 hours a day. --Msc44 01:15, 19 January 2006 (UTC)

That picture

Yuck!

Msc44, I appreciate your efforts, really I do, really. And this picture is, well, bigger than the old one, and the fact that the wrapper says "Pat's Steaks" on it gives it the mark of authenticity...

...but, this new one looks like... ummm... words fail me. Or actually they don't, but I better not say. Can't you try again... and at least get a more attractive background than a grease-spotted wrapper? And without a glob of cheezy drool oozing over the lower lip of the sandwich?

Maybe if you tell them you're going to take a picture they would be flattered enough to take some care in the presentation, and give you a spotlessly clean wrapper to be placed under it just before the photo is taken?

Our picture of a Nick Tahou garbage plate looks yummy by comparison. Dpbsmith (talk) 21:42, 21 January 2006 (UTC)

Haha. I really don't know how good you can make a photo of a cheesesteak look, and if you want to press your luck trying to talk to the staff at Pat's about what the picture is for, be my guest, as they aren't too friendly.
Possibly a horizontal shot with the steak in the foreground at the bottom of the frame, and a blurred Geno's in the background. I'll give more shots a try next time I get down there. --Msc44 22:03, 21 January 2006 (UTC)
OK, I photoshopped it a bit. If you don't see the change empty your browser's cache, reload page, perform [1] etc. etc. Dpbsmith (talk) 03:58, 22 January 2006 (UTC)

Jim's Steaks/Steve's Prince of Steaks/Tony Luke's

Not being familiar with Philadelphia, I can't judge. I believe Pat's Steaks and Geno's Steaks have a special superstar (or tourist-trap) status to them.

Would an unbiassed Philadelphian observer naturally mention Jim's Steaks, Steve's Prince of Steaks, and Tony Luke's as being the obvious next runners-up? Or are these just good cheesesteak places that happen to be in Wikipedia through the personal efforts of individual devotees?

Due Jim's Steaks/Steve's Prince of Steaks/Tony Luke's have a generally-recognized special status that justifies their inclusion in the article? Opinions for now, there's no reason for haste in taking any action at all on these. Dpbsmith (talk) 20:17, 2 February 2006 (UTC)

Yeah they are more well known than your average neighborhood steak shop. I have no problem with them being mentioned. Jim's is always mentioned right after Pats and Genos and Tony Luke's is probably the most well known overall sandwich shop in Philly and are pretty well known for their stizzies. There is probably one or two more that fall into this just below Pat's and Genos category. Shops such as D'Allesandros in Roxbourough which has won numerous Best of Philly awards. Bottomline is that in my opinion they are notable enough to keep--Looper5920 22:40, 2 February 2006 (UTC)

Agree with looper. Though the three don’t have the same level of notoriety as their Passyunk Ave cousins, their stature and importance in the "Cheesesteak Industry" in Philly is just as prominent. --Boothy443 | trácht ar 05:28, 3 February 2006 (UTC)
OK. Dpbsmith (talk) 14:34, 3 February 2006 (UTC)

My two cents: Not trying to start any arguments here, but I live in Philly and I also lived in Northeast Philly for years and never heard anybody mention Steve's Prince of Steaks in any special way. Certainly nobody would drive out of their way to go there, like somebody in South Philly might travel a dozen blocks to eat at Tony Luke's which is highly regarded citywide. I don't know where that Steve's stuff comes from, but it smells like covert advertising to me. Also, Geno's and Pat's are certainly the most famous steak places, and should certainly be in the article, but almost every Philadelphian I know considers them inferior steaks. The reason usually cited is the meat is low grade; too fatty and gristly. There's crowds there but they're in South Philly, which is both densely populated and tends to roll up the sidewalks at dusk. Pat's/Geno's are open 24 hours--where else are you going to eat down there at 3am after bars let out? Of course there's going to be a crowd, it's either there, a diner, or dumpster diving! Their reputation is definitely 50% tourist fed. If I suggested to someone born and raised here who doesn't live within a few blocks of them that we go down to Geno's or Pat's they'd laugh in my face. As for Best of Philly awarded places, nobody reads Philadelphia magazine except rich suburbanites and penthouse-dwelling Center City executives. Best of Philly carries zero credibility among 99% of the population of this city; in fact, many couldn't even tell you a single winner unless they'd happened to walk into the place and seen it displayed triumphantly on the wall. As for Kerry, it's not that swiss is derided as unmanly in Philly, it's simply not a conventional cheese on a cheesesteak. Sure it's delicious, but ordering a cheesesteak with it marks you as a rube. That's what the media hoo-ha was about, that he was in South Philly doing the "man of the people" thing that all politicians do and made such an obvious blunder. Why is swiss not offered? It just isn't. No reason, people are just used to wiz, american, or provolone on their steaks. And the poster above who mentioned the sandwich being called just a "cheesesteak" is right on. They're only called "Philly cheesesteaks" as a marketing hook outside the Philly area or in the frozen foods section of supermarket shelves. Nobody who is actually from Philly calls it a "Philly cheesesteak." When you start seeing pizza parlors advertising "Philly cheesesteak" that's how you know you've passed out of the suburbs, and they probably offer swiss on it too. You need some commentary from a Philadelphian, there you go.

Comparison table

What are the sources for the comparison table, as required by the verifiability policy ("we only publish material that is verifiable with reference to reliable, published sources")?

I hate to remove this and will leave it up while we discuss it, but isn't this original research? Dpbsmith (talk) 10:55, 10 February 2006 (UTC)

  • I would argue that the entire section needs to be deleted. At first I was about to say we need to keep it but the more I think about it the more I realize that it should go. It adds nothing new to the article. We know Pat's and Geno's are rivals. The differneces between the two cannot be confined to a table. Honestly, cheese under, cheese over, does your taste buds know the location of the cheese once it hits your mouth? Especially at 3Am in the morning? Also, I would argue that Steve's does not belong in the table with them since we kicked Dad's steaks out earlier today. Bottomline...I say get rid of it. Not because it is original research but because it adds nothing to the article.--Looper5920 11:27, 10 February 2006 (UTC)
    • Oh, I think it adds something to the article. But I don't see how it stands up to the verifiability policy. Dpbsmith (talk) 15:08, 10 February 2006 (UTC)