Talk:Cheese-eating surrender monkeys

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This article was nominated for deletion on May 15th 2004. The result of the discussion was Keep.

This article was nominated for deletion on June 29, 2007. The result of the discussion was keep.

[edit] Original Talk: discussion

I always assumed the phrase referred primarily to the speedy collapse of French military resistance at the start of WWII. Vichy seems plausible but surely not Napoleon (not a man to surrender lightly) or colonial disengagement (too obscure). Harry R 15:52, 15 May 2004 (UTC)

I also wonder if it has anything to do with French failures at Crecy or Agincourt.

I was happy to leave it at Vichy and worry it is turning into a Franch bashing page. Equally, as ABBA taught us, My my, at Waterloo, Napoleon did surrender. Oh Yeah, and I have met my destiny in quite a similar way. Ahem. So that's okay. --Tagishsimon

Better now? Also, if the episode doesn't mention the Battle of France, the final sentence of that paragraph is also unfounded and should be struck. JMD (talk) 02:04, 30 January 2007 (UTC)

Is this page really necessary?

I mean, really, it's a stupid, throwaway joke from the Simpsons, and a cheap shot, too. And I discovered this page because it was linked from the front page of the site! When did it become cool to insult a whole nation by making an encyclopedia entry calling them monkeys, anyway? How long before you myopic, seemingly-retarded (and my fellow) Americans begin refering to African nations as "Starving genocide monkeys"? --Catblack 21:44, 15 May 2004 (UTC)

None of us will die for the lack of any of these pages. CESM had its fifteen minutes of fame - google for it to see how widespread it became - 10,200 hits. When did it become cool to insult a whole nation by making an encyclopedia entry calling them monkeys, anyway? It is not and you possibly miss the point entirely here. CESM happened. The encyclopedia is reporting that it happened, and putting it in context. It would be wrong to start a page which had no external reference - e.g. a page called Catblack misses the point; that would be to hijack the wikipedia for a POV attack with no basis. It is worlds apart from explaining the antecedents of a phrase with wipespread, though perhaps transitory, usage. Whoever put in on the front page presumably shares the view that it is well known enough to deserve an outing. --Tagishsimon

Catblack apparently doesn't mind insulting a whole nation by implying Americans are myopic and retarded. Also he/she/it doesn't realize that Wikipedia is international, not American, and Tagishsimon who started the page is apparently English, judging from his user page.

Or Scottish when the fancy takes me ;) --Tagishsimon

Catblack, we survive, no worry ;-) SweetLittleFluffyThing

I feel I must point out that this reference is, in fact, in error. The phrase in question comes from the episode “’Round Springfield” (2F32). The exact quote, in context, is as follows:

Bart: [walking into nurse’s room] Lunch Lady Doris? Why are you here?
Doris: Budget cuts. They've even got Groundskeeper Willie teaching French.

[cut to…]

Willie: Bonjourrrrrr, ya cheese-eating surrender monkeys!

The line in question refers to the students “learning” French from Willie, not the French themselves. It is not a criticism of the French. It is simply one of Groundskeeper Willie’s many oddly off-color statements. As a result, I find it incomprehensible that people in the U.S. and U.K. have used it as a rallying cry against the French. D.A.S., 22:11 EDT, 31 August 2006

I think you find it incomprehensible because you've gone too far with deconstructing the joke. Clearly the joke is at heart targeting the French, unless you really believe that there's some deep Vietnam reference in there (as why else would a Scotsman say it to some Americans?). As for Catblack's comments: it became much more than a cheap throwaway joke from the Simpsons, thanks to the run up to the Iraq war. Personally I just think it shows ignorance on the part of those who use it (and mean it) Bombot 10:12, 20 February 2007 (UTC)

It's a droll phrase. This being the case it is comprehensible to me that someone had the wit to pick it up & run with it. That the target of the phrase has been subverted is the least you'd expect when choosing vocabulary for a scabrous attack on a nation which has pissed you off (UK) / at which you're pissed (US). --Tagishsimon (talk)

[edit] VfD Debate 16th May 2004

Raised and removed by Catblack.

Template:VfD-Cheese-eating surrender monkeys

'Gained common currency' implies that many people used it, that it became a common phrase. I don't think that is really true - it might have been used in a few shows as a gag, but to say that it was in common use? I don't think so. Is there some alternative phrase that you'd be happy with? Mark Richards 19:53, 19 May 2004 (UTC)

Hey, I'd never heard this phrase before, and it kinda surprised me that there was a page for it. I got shouted down, but hey, that-sa democracy for ya. And I mean it, I'd never heard this phrase before, and I don't think a page is really necessary. But then, the experience of sending VFD-wards was educational to me as to how the wiki works. (Or wonks as the case may be.)

But really, is there going to be a page for every joke on the Daily show, for example? I want my Giany Mess-O-Potamia! --Catblack 01:38, 22 May 2004 (UTC)

If the joke has legs of its own, then yes, why not. Can you not tell the difference between a phrase that is picked up and used by many people to express a political opinion, and a phrase whch us not? You say you had never heard of the phrase before. Welcome to the encyclopedia ... it tends to be a collection of that sort of stuff. I'm unsure what information was missed out of the replies you got to a similar query on the 15th May, (above). Perhaps some sort of groundhog day thing going on? --Tagishsimon

[edit] Slogan?

Shouldn't this be prefixed with Slogan: ? {Ανάριον } 14:31, 1 Oct 2004 (UTC)

Why? Should the Ford Ka be prefixed with Car:, or the article on bananas be prefixed with Fruit: ? You could at least make a case for your (to me, bizarre) suggestion. --Tagishsimon

Err... I am confused. I could've sworn that slogans were prefixed with Slogan: in the Wikipedia, but I now can't find any... never mind it. {Ανάριον } 15:11, 1 Oct 2004 (UTC)

Besides which, albeit was used in a political context, I do not think it is a slogan, so much as an amusing insulting phrase. (well, amusig unless you are French, perhaps). --Tagishsimon

[edit] National Review

The line was first picked up and used predominantly by Republican American politicians and publications. They were led, according to The Guardian , by Jonah Goldberg, a columnist for the right-wing weekly National Review.

National Review is biweekly.

Noted. In the mean time, I believe that if the political characterization is going to be retained, then it would be appropriate to refer to The Guardian as a "left-wing daily". Ellsworth 21:48, 23 Apr 2005 (UTC)

Left-of-centre, maybe. --Tagishsimon (talk)

And that's the problem. Where the "center" is inherently depends on POV, which is why I propose to drop the references altogether. Which I will do now. Ellsworth 14:36, 25 Apr 2005 (UTC)

Good call. The Grauniad and National Review pages both adequately discuss the politics of each. --Tagishsimon (talk)

Let's see if it stands. Editors tend to get huffy about labelling or the lack thereof. Ellsworth 16:17, 25 Apr 2005 (UTC)

[edit] POV

The terminology is based on the complete collapse of French defenses in WWII, their defeat in Viet-Nam, and the frequent undermining of U.S. foreing policy initiatives. These include allying with genocidal Serbs, Chinese nationalists wanting to invade democratic and independent Taiwan, being one of the two largest recipients of oil for food bribes, undermining free trade in favor of big subsidies for French farmers and supporting Saddam Hussein.

Anyone else think this is more than just a little POV? Especially when it gets to "supporting Saddam Hussein". I mean, really, if we're going to play the "if you were against the war, you supported Saddam" game, we're going to get into a whole Mess-O-Potamia of our own. --MullHistSoc 10:52, 22 December 2005 (UTC)

It was User:Nickthaniel wot dunnit. I've reverted and left a note on his talk. --Tagishsimon (talk)

[edit] Origin?

The List of neologisms on The Simpsons states that the phrase "originated in Britain in the 1980s but was popularized by Scottish character Groundskeeper Willie," but this article credits "The Simpsons" with creating it. Which is correct?

It would be very helpful for the article to explain where the "monkey" bit comes from. I recall hearing there was a specific historical episode this refers to but I can't for the life of me remember what it was. Any ideas? ElectricRay 16:00, 5 June 2006 (UTC)

Hartlepool#Monkey_business, I'd guess.

[edit] Merge with Simpsons Neologisms

Oppose as per SN talk page.--Anchoress 07:00, 23 May 2006 (UTC)

It's grown beyond this though and is used quite frequently, particularly here in the UK. I have added details of William Hague using it on the page. Michaelritchie200 09:30, 21 October 2006 (UTC)

It's also fairly common amongst European online gamers, specifically, online matches where French and British gamers clash and tempers begin to rage. Although I can't source it, obviously and thus I won't make a change by myself, I've been in several situations where CESM is commonly used, much to the confusion/anger of French gamers and sadistic enjoyment of my fellow englishmen, citing any battle from Agincourt, Crecy and Harfleur to Waterloo, The Battle of France and Vietnam [Yes, the French were there too . . .]. Gets VERY annoying after a while --JavaJawaUK 19:52, 16 April 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Images

Including an appropriate image would be nice. I recommend this one.

[edit] Origin Aspect

The origin part cited that it was due to the French collapse to German forces in world war two, myself and many of my associates took it to be due to the fact the French incessantly had their arses reamed by the British throughout history, long before WWII, long before Napoleon, long before Agincourt. I believe this should be reflected in the article, yet as I am not a regular, nor of the mindset to be posting this late at night, I urge one of the fine editors of this article to make the ammendments as they see fit. The WWII reference may specifically be due to the fact that it is the only instance in which the Americans were on the 'good guys' side in their history, as they supported Napoleon in many under-the-table ways during that war where again the French were reamed. Thus indicative that the original authors were most likely American and didn't have much grounds of history past the era of America's foundation as a country. Jachin 16:06, 25 September 2006 (UTC)

Do you have anything to back this up, or is it purely based on impressions you have about the origins? This sounds highly questionable to me. - BalthCat 02:53, 26 September 2006 (UTC)

Something found on the web. Just an American's refreshing opinion:

It really, really amused me when Americans call the French "surrender monkeys". Due to various factors (shorter history, larger size, more geographic isolation) the US does not exactly have an unvarnished tradition of beating great powers on the field of single combat.

- The US won the revolutionary war... with substantial French help.

- The US started the war of 1812 but its invasion was beaten back and a peace treaty was signed.

- The only really serious war that was actually fought on a lot of US territory since the country was created was the Civil War... against itself. So part of the US surrendered to itself.

- The US did grab big chunks of territory from Mexico and Spain, pretty easily because they were just plain nowhere near as strong.

- In WWI, the US stayed out until the absolute last minute. Some claim that they helped "turn the tide", but what that really means is that other countries slogged it out for a brutal four years of actual fighting, and then the US sent a smaller force which barely reached the front lines before an armistice was signed, and the threat of additional troops may or may not have contributed to the armistice.

- In WW2, the US stayed out until directly attacked. It was initially so unprepared that it suffered crushing defeats against Imperial Japan, a smaller nation with a much smaller economy, and even a smaller navy. It won after nearly four years, mostly by virtue of being bigger rather than any strategic brilliance. On the European front, Hitler was defeated by the Russians (who were given some equipment by the US/west after they'd already fought the Germans to a standstill, thus allowing/hastening their offensive), and the US sent troops to add a western front, hasten his downfall, and incidentally prevent the Soviets from seizing all of Europe.

- In the Korean war, the US protected South Korea, but was beaten back out of North Korea by the Chinese.

- Since then, US military history has been pretty simple. The US has only fought ground wars against vastly inferior militaries. It defeats them in straight on battle, but tends to lose guerilla wars. Of the three major wars it's fought since Korea - Vietnam, Iraq I, Iraq II - Vietnam will be abandoned to guerillas, Iraq I stopped short of taking Baghdad because of fear of chaos, guerillas, etc., and Iraq II is such a quagmire of guerillas that it's basically inevitable that the US will pull out without having defeated them, and leave a low-level war in progress in the country.

- Then there's Afghanistan, not really a major ground war for the US since it basically won by bribing the locals into overthrowing the regime, and helping them with airstrikes. US troops fought one major battle at the Shah-i-kot, which if you know about that battle was actually sort of humiliating. The US was trying to surround and capture a large force of Al Qaeda troops holed up in a mountain valley, and use some Afghan allies as the main assault force in order to make them look good. Both goals utterly failed. The US didn't suffer a lot of casualties, but the battle should (and may) go down in history in military circles as a spectacular example of what not to do. US troops have been involved in the postwar occupation... in which their old enemy the Taliban has gained new strength, and the Afghan central government still controls little outside of Kabul.

It seems to be a popular misconception in the US that America has an unusually glorious military history, when in fact it's one of the less distinguished of the great powers, including in the 20th century itself. The US has the *largest military* today by far, but that's not quite the same thing. —The preceding unsigned comment was added by Onaryc (talk • contribs) 14:10, 22 December 2006 (UTC).

I find it perplexing how the then-third world countries of Haiti and Vietnam could defeat a major european power like the French. Did any other Western European countries have similar experiences with their colonies? Maybe these things contributed to the French image of military weakness? -Taco325i 18:22, 23 January 2007 (UTC)

About Taco325i's comment above, I'll just say that I don't find it perplexing how 50,000 French troops were defeated in Vietnam whereas ten times as many US troops (with B52's and napalm) were defeated in Vietnam too. What I do find perplexing is that the myth of French cowardice and/or military weakness goes on. When thousands of US soldiers die, it's courage, when thousands of french soldiers die (like in 1939) it's military incompetence. When the British soldiers run away from german troops in 1940, running back to England, nobody makes jokes about the British being cowards. The French, instead, are the butt of "surrender" jokes in the US, even though they fought as long and as hard, and killed as many German soldiers... and although France was the only nation that shared a border with Germany and declared war on Germany in 1939, at a time when there was no eastern front, no Russian army to kill 80% of the German troops like they did in 1944... It can be argued that Normandy invasion stories make more spectacular scenes for war movies, and that Hollywood have always been more competent in making war epics than post-war French or Russian cinema. It could also be argued that US TV viewers will find it more acceptable and reassuring that if the French would not participate in the Iraq war, it's because they are cowardly or weak rather than right about their reasons for not going, even though it turned out that they were actually right. The problem is, the jokes (and the "coward" stereotypes) still go on in the States. And, one might add, so does the appalling ignorance of historical facts. Onaryc 11:14, 30 April 2007 (UTC)

It's not surprising that nobody makes jokes about the British being cowards because when it came to fighting for their homeland they did not surrender in mere 40 days (and didn't surrender at all) unlike the French, even though a large part of France was still free from German troops at the time of the surrender. As for the argument that the defeat of British Expeditionary Force somehow mitigates the French surrender, it's a very lame excuse put up by people who are either void of any kind of logic or trying to mislead average uninformed Joes. First, like I said, the British weren't fighting for their homeland there, so they were much less motivated to fight than the French should have been; second, they had to obey the order of the retarded French top brass, third and most important, there were very few of them compared to the total number of combatants. Only a loony can think that 10 divisions of BEF should stop 153 German & Italian divisions when millions of French soldiers were throwing their rifles away (1,900,000 POWs most of whom were French). The only thing BEF could do is to aid the French AND they did it. Therefore the presence of BEF on the battlefield does not in any way excuses the French military, but actually makes them even more pathetic. As for "80% of the German troops killed by Russians" I would very much like to see the source of that, but I'm sure you won't provide it because the number was clearly taken out of your head.B-2Admirer (talk) 17:17, 23 February 2008 (UTC)

P. S. I didn't come here to promote the "surrender monkey" stereotype, but I have no reason to keep quiet when a person like Onaryc puts up some blatantly illogical arguments to excuse his beloved French. The phase "part of the US surrendered to itself" can only be characterized as an oxymoron. Well, like I said I don't promote any stereotypes, but this has nothing to do with the fact that the French have not nearly put up a real fight during the French Campaign of WWII. Also they contributed next to nothing to the Victory over Hitler, but that doesn't stop them from teaching their children that "France liberated itself", although it's pretty obvious that if it wasn't for the US and British troops France would be "liberating itself" to this day if not from Nazis then from the Soviets.B-2Admirer (talk) 08:55, 24 February 2008 (UTC)

P. P. S. Onaryc's statement "ten times as many US troops (with B52's and napalm) were defeated in Vietnam" is another sample of his twisted logic. Can he name a single US base that was overrun by VC/NVA? Can he name a single battle the US military lost in Vietnam? Well, the US undoubtedly lost the hearts and minds of the population (not just Vietnamese, but also American), but that's hardly a military defeat. The French military were fighting to keep Vietnam a part of France, then their base was captured, and they walked out of it stripped of their weapons with their hands lifted up. Shortly afterwards Vietnam became independent. Have they been defeated? Certainly yes. The US were fighting along with the state of South Vietnam to defend its borders from the communist North Vietnam. They were successful in fending off every offensive launched at them, but the majority of the US public grew disillusioned of the war and wanted the withdrawal of the US troops. It would not matter if the US were a USSR-like totalitarian state, in which case the state of South Vietnam would still exist today, but the States were (and still are) a democratic country, so every politician who had any hopes of being elected had to promise he'd do anything to ensure a quick withdrawal of the US troops from Vietnam. Richard Nixon became the president and he did as he promised to - ordered the withdrawal of the US troops from Vietnam. Several years later NVA easily conquered South Vietnam abandoned by their mighty ally. Have the US been defeated? Of course not. They withdraw from the war, which caused the defeat of South Vietnam. B-2Admirer (talk) 09:43, 24 February 2008 (UTC)

[edit] Suggesting merger & redirection

to http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/French_people

68.113.160.226 23:34, 22 November 2006 (UTC)

(ps just kidding)

[edit] whats with all the connections with Rupert Murdoch?

There's all these ties of Rupert Murdoch owning Fox News and the Simpsons, which he does. But it's repeated and used irrelevantly, to the point of redundancy. I don't know what the big deal is, the Simpsons in a few episodes featured clips of an animated Fox News anchor discussing happenings in the episode while running ridiculous tickers such as "Do Democrats cause cancer?", obviously satirizing Fox News' alleged bias.--Exander 08:45, 30 December 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Moved from Article to Talk

I moved this:

I would like to say that it's a legitimate phrase and has a right to be here, why the questioning whether a phrase from a cartoon should be on wikipedia? I for one am glad it's on here cos I was chatting to some transatlantic buddies about their finding the phrase 'yanks' offensive, and I offered 'burger-eating invasion monkeys' as an example of a genuinely offensive (but hilarious) phrase. I had to search to find the right expression. Before reading this page though I always thought it was from something before the Simpsons...

from article to here. Avalon 02:23, 14 January 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Monkey reference

The monkey part of the phrase stems from when residents of middlesborough put a monkey on trial and subsequently hanged it; assuming that it was a frenchman. This was during the hundred years war (I think) and francophobia was at an all time high, the people of middlesborough had never seen a frenchman or monkey before and so assumed they were the same.

Sigh. It was Hartlepool in the Napoleonic wars. —The preceding unsigned comment was added by 82.18.73.199 (talk) 23:19, 8 March 2007 (UTC).

That's the one!84.64.104.173 09:34, 15 June 2007 (UTC)

Espèce d'idiots! Groundskeeper Willie is referring to the pupils as monkeys. The cheese-eating surrender is a dig at the French but the monkeys are the pre-teen students. Deconstructing, calling the French cheese-eating surrender kids doen't make sense. So, the current usage of this cultural reference misses the orginal context and should be cheese-eating surrender losers, for example.
Sleigh (talk) 15:14, 22 May 2008 (UTC)

[edit] Fair use rationale for Image:Nypost surrender monkeys.jpg

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[edit] The revert of Tagishsimon

A change was reverted:

"It is seen by some to be very ironic due to the crucial role the French played in the American Revolutionary War."

I think this reversion was a little unjust, so thought the line needed a little explanation. Read Anti-French sentiment in the United States and American Revolutionary War. The latter cites Tombs (2006), saying that the French spent 1.3 billion livres, which was a major factor in the [[French Revolution". British Commons Journals of 1778 state the alliance of Spain and France with America as being the major reason for wanting to end the war ("...still involved in the War with Three powerful nations in Europe, without one Single Ally", Veneris 15 die Martii, p. 896). I have spoken to many people who realise the irony of the statement also, so I think the line should be reinstated. Otherwise the article has bias.

I'd welcome other views. Please give reason if you disagree, otherwise I'll revert it back in a day or so. Thanks, Proberts2003 18:22, 26 June 2007 (UTC)

We're talking about the sentence "It is seen by some to be very ironic due to the crucial role the French played in the American War of Independence." The question I asked myself is "by whom is it seen in this way as ironical". The page over the years has seen many conjectures on the reason/meaning of the French part of the saying. So mainly, I pulled it because it is an assertion for which I must doubt that there is any objective basis. Further, it was added to the lead paragraph. That means it should be one of the most important things about the phrase. Even were the assertion to be provable - such as by citing the MORI poll in which people 'fessed up to thinking about the war of independence when presented with the phrase - the sentence would have been better added to some subsidiary paragraph. Happy to discuss further, if you want. --Tagishsimon (talk)

[edit] Scotland and France

Sorry, I'm not quite sold on the idea that the Scots have a particular love for the French. The article sites the Auld Alliance of 1295??? How about the Battle of the Boyne when Scots and Scots-Irishmen fought against the Franco-Irish? Not to mention the antagonism between the UK in general and France over the past couple centuries.

I'm not sold on the whole sentence & so have removed it. This article is a bit of a magnet for people who think they know the significance and connotations of the word French in the phrase. We could do with more cited references, and much less speculation and conjecture. --Tagishsimon (talk)

[edit] +1 for deletion

this entry is un-encyclopedic. Izaakb 16:56, 13 August 2007 (UTC)

[edit] alongside most of the world?

Quote "France opposed many U.S. positions and actions, in particular, alongside most of the world, the 2003 invasion of Iraq". Why alongside most of the world? Quite possibly true, but what's the source/evidence?--Kotniski 08:09, 17 August 2007 (UTC)

Yeah I think it would be relevant to precise and maybe to "update" this issue (opposition in actions etc..)SiftingJeff 21:45, 24 August 2007 (UTC)

[edit] usage in Britain

I really doubt that any politician in the UK would ever use this phrase in anything other than an ironic manner. Unusual Cheese 11:16, 27 August 2007 (UTC)

It says "Conservative", so politican isn't really valid anyway 195.157.52.65 12:21, 7 November 2007 (UTC)

I've amended it to "right wing". We have the (still uncited but eminently believable) Nigel Farage quote. I can imagine the phrases use by an idiot politico who thinks he is amongst friends. --Tagishsimon (talk) 12:31, 7 November 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Coincidence?

Naval ensign of the Kingdom of France. Really.

204.52.215.107 (talk) 21:01, 5 May 2008 (UTC)

You know, I was thinking the same thing... I think someone just made a mistake. Geosultan4 (talk) 01:18, 6 May 2008 (UTC)