Talk:Che Guevara/Archive 6

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This is an archive of past discussions. Do not edit the contents of this page. If you wish to start a new discussion or revive an old one, please do so on the current talk page.

This is Archive_6 covering approximately 30 May 2006 - 29 June 2006

Marxist

Che is repeatedly called a "Marxist" in the course of the article and elsewhere on Wikipedia. As far as I know, Che called himself "Communist", not "Marxist", and "Marxist" is therefore OR. Additionally, his authoritarian politics are more in line with quasi-fascists like Josef Stalin or Mao Zedong than Karl Marx, who influenced anarchist thought. Article should definitely be changed to say "Communist", but I have no doubt there will be opposition so I'm raising the idea here. --Switch 07:12, 30 May 2006 (UTC)

Addition to the dicussion: The topic to distinquish between Marxist and Comminist has been discussed before, this from the archives:[1] --Dakota ~ 17:10, 30 May 2006 (UTC)

In fact, Che continually described himself as a "Marxist", a "Marxist-Leninist" and, less frequently, "a communist", as can be observed in the following excerpts from a few of his speeches and writings:

Porque hay que recordar siempre que el marxista no es una máquina automática y
fanática dirigida, como un torpedo, mediante un servomecanismo hacia un
objetivo determinado. De este problema se ocupa expresamente Fidel en una de
sus intervenciones: «¿Quién ha dicho que el marxismo es la renuncia de los
sentimientos humanos, al compañerismo, al amor al compañero, al respeto al
compañero, a la consideración al compañero? ¿Quién ha dicho que el
marxismo es no tener alma, no tener sentimientos? Si precisamente fue el amor
al hombre lo que engendró el marxismo, fue el amor al hombre, a la humanidad, el
deseo de combatir la desdicha del proletariado, el deseo de combatir la
miseria, la injusticia, el calvario y toda la explotación sufrida por el proletariado, lo
que hace que de la mente de Carlos Marx surja el marxismo cuando precisamente
podía surgir el marxismo, cuando precisamente podía surgir una posibilidad
real y más que una posibilidad real, la necesidad histórica de la Revolución
social de la cual fue intérprete Carlos Marx. Pero, ¿qué lo hizo ser ese intérprete
sino el caudal de sentimientos humanos de hombres como él, como Engels, como
Lenin?»

Esta apreciación de Fidel es fundamental para el militante del nuevo partido,
recuérdenlo siempre, compañeros, grábenselo en la memoria como su arma
más eficaz contra todas las desviaciones. El marxista debe ser el mejor, el más
cabal, el más completo de los seres humanos pero, siempre, por sobre todas
las cosas, un ser humano; un militante de un partido que vive y vibra en contacto
con las masas; un orientador que plasma en directivas concretas los deseos a veces
oscuros de la masa; un trabajador incansable que entrega todo a su pueblo;
un trabajador sufrido que entrega sus horas de descanso, su tranquilidad
personal, su familia o su vida a la Revolución, pero nunca es ajeno al calor
del contacto humano. "Obras escogidas", pg 251 (Prólogo al libro El partido
marxista-leninista, publicado por la Dirección Nacional del Partido Unido de
la Revolución Socialista de Cuba, La Habana, 1963.)


========================================


Estos dos momentos difíciles de la revolución, que hemos analizado
someramente, se obvian cuando los partidos dirigentes marxistas-leninistas
son capaces de ver claro las implicaciones del momento y de movilizar las masas al
máximo, llevándolas por el camino justo de la resolución de las contradicciones
fundamentales. "Obras escogidas", pg 95 (Cuba Socialista, septiembre de 1963.)


========================================


El militante del Partido Unido de la Revolución es un marxista; debe conocer el marxismo
y debe aplicar consecuentemente, en su análisis, el materialismo dialéctico para poder
interpretar el mundo cabalmente.

...

Por eso el marxismo es solamente una guía par la acción. Se han descubierto las
grandes verdades fundamentales, y a partir de ellas, utilizando el materialismo
dialéctico como arma, se va interpretando la realidad en cada lugar del mundo. Por
eso ninguna construcción será igual; todas tendrán características peculiares, propias
a su formación.

"Obras escogidas", pg 270 (Discurso en la asamblea general de trabajadores de la Textilería
Ariguanabo, 24 de marzo de 1963)
 

========================================


Agradezco al señor Stevenson su referencia histórica a mi larga vida como
comunista y revolucionario que culmina en Cuba. Como siempre, las agencias
norteamericanas, no sólo en noticias, sino de espionaje, confunden las cosas. Mi
historia de revolucionario es corta y realmente empieza en el Granma y sigue
hasta este momento. No pertenecía al Partido Comunista hasta
ahora que estoy en Cuba y podemos proclamar todos ante esta Asamblea el
marxismo-leninismo que sigue como teoría de acción la Revolución cubana.
"Obras Escogidas", pg 405 (Tomado del folleto Ha sonado la hora postrera del colonialismo, 
Ministerio de Relaciones Exteriores)

========================================

I will be glad to provide many more examples, if someone considers those presented above to be insufficient.

Polaris999 03:13, 31 May 2006 (UTC)

Okay, I didn't know he had called himself a Marxist. Okay then, never mind. That's good enough for me. --Switch 07:42, 31 May 2006 (UTC)

"his authoritarian politics are more in line with quasi-fascists like Josef Stalin or Mao Zedong than Karl Marx, who influenced anarchist thought." Not only is this comment not backed up with fact, it's simply not true. 82.176.194.151 11:12, 2 August 2006 (UTC)

What's wrong with the new crit. intro?

If you don't like it, improve it, don't revert it! --71.141.100.105 08:33, 31 May 2006 (UTC)

Professional title, etc.

The article begins with a few mistakes:

"... was an Argentine-born physician, Marxist revolutionary, politician, and leader of Cuban and internationalist guerrillas."

First, the words "Argentine", "Marxist" and "Cuban" have not reason to appear in caps.

Second, Ernesto Guevara was a doctor (dermatologist), not a physician.

Third, the word "guerrillas" could be changed for "revolutions".

--201.253.80.77 16:17, 12 June 2006 (UTC)

Hola, just concerning medical practitioner status, physician/doctor are the same as in "the physician, Dr. Foo" with one being the profession the other the title.[2]--Dakota ~ 17:05, 12 June 2006 (UTC)

Hello User: 201.253.80.77 -- I would like to thank you for your contribution here on the Talk (Discussion) page of the Che Guevara article. The question of exactly what medical diploma Ernesto received, and what his correct professional title was, is a puzzle I have been trying to find the answer to ever since I began working on this article. Some time ago one person posted a lengthy document on Wikipedia which he claimed was a copy of Ernesto's transcript in the UBA Medical School. I asked for help from anyone familiar with such transcripts to determine whether or not this document appears to be legitimate, but no comments were forthcoming. I am therefore wondering if you might take a look at it and, if possible, give us your opinion about it. You can see it by clicking here: User talk:Pablo-flores/Archive3#A confusing situation (re Che Guevara's medical records). Your help in clarifying this matter would be greatly appreciated. -- Best regards, Polaris999 20:23, 12 June 2006 (UTC)

As for the capitalization: In English, proper nouns and words derived from them are usually capitalized. --Stephan Schulz 05:20, 18 June 2006 (UTC)

The professional title of Ernesto Guevara was "médico" (in spanish). In english it is equivalent of the "medical doctor" title, also physician. —Preceding unsigned comment added by [[User:200.82.56.23|200.82.56.23]] ([[User talk:200.82.56.23|talk]] • [[Special:Contributions/200.82.56.23|contribs]])

Just to confirm Stephan Schulz here: in English, Argentine and Cuban must be capitalized; Marxist is usually capitalized, though it is less jarring to see it lowercased than these others, since there is some precedent for such transformation of people's names (sadistic and masochistic, quixotic). Still, I would guess that educated native speakers would run at least 20-1 in favor of always capitalizing Marxist, though maybe not the less politically-related Marxian/marxian (as in "A Marxian/marxian analysis"). - Jmabel | Talk 16:07, 27 July 2006 (UTC)

Switching pictures

I hope it won't offend anyone, but I substituted the Der Spiegel picture in the Legacy section for a picture of a poetry reading in front of a Che Guevara mural/painting at Colegio Cesar Chavez. There are four reasons I have done this: 1. As this is the English language website, most who visit this site are unfamiliar with the Der Spiegel publication, and therefore any significance of a Che cover will be lost on most visitors. Therefore, I think it is more relevant to have a picture from an institution that was in the United States. 2. Colegio Cesar Chavez was an activist institution that symbolically looked to Che Guevara, and in fact was almost named in his honor. And because Colegio was the first and only Chicano/Mexican-American college in the United States, it is quite notable in this context. It can in some ways be seen as an extension of Che's movement. 3. The picture in question has been released into the public domain, which I doubt the picture of Der Spiegel has been. My understanding is that Wikipedia prefers free pictures to fair use pictures. 4. I really believe that the picture from Colegio deserves to be on this page as I think it is of more historical pertinence than the Der Spiegel cover, but there just isn't enough room in that section for three pictures. -- Andrew Parodi 11:08, 13 June 2006 (UTC)

The idea is to discuss major changes in the article here on the Talk page before making them. Therefore I am reverting the article to the way it was before you re-did the "Legacy" section and we will await comments from other editors to see whether they support or oppose the changes you are proposing. Thank you. Polaris999 14:27, 13 June 2006 (UTC)

I am posting here a link to a page that shows the changes you are proposing to make to the "Legacy" section so that other editors can see and evaluate them without having to search through the History page to find them: Modifications of the "Legacy" section proposed by User:Andrew Parodi

Polaris999 15:16, 13 June 2006 (UTC)

NB: I have just discovered that a few minutes before you inserted the picture [[Image:Colegiopoetryreading.jpg]] into the "Legacy" section of the main "Che Guevara" article, you had inserted it into the article "Che Guevara in popular culture", i.e. 05:47, 13 June 2006 Andrew Parodi (adding Colegio Cesar Chavez picture). Even if the photo were a good one, which lamentably it is not, there would be no reason to include it in both the main "Che Guevara" article and the derivative ("child") article, "Che Guevara in popular culture". Consequently, there is no reason to give further consideration to your proposed modification of the "Legacy" section of the main "Che Guevara" article. Whether or not the inclusion of the photograph [[Image:Colegiopoetryreading.jpg]] in the "Che Guevara in Popular Culture" article is appropriate and/or desirable can be discussed between you and the editors who are working on that article on that article's Talk page. -- Polaris999 17:20, 13 June 2006 (UTC)

It's not the best picture, but it's more historically pertinent than the cover of a foreign magazine that most English speakers have never heard of. In regard to it already being on the "popular culture" page, many pictures on Wikipedia are shown on different pages.

For clarification, the reason the picture is in both places is because I found the "popular culture" article before I found the "legacy" section in this main article. If I had to choose, I'd refer for the picture to be in the legacy section of the main article, because Colegio Cesar Chavez really does not qualify as "popular culture."

I think it's significant that there was a mural of Che Guevara in Colegio Cesar Chavez, the only four-year Hispanic/Chicano in the nation. And I think it's significant that the founders of the college had considered naming the college "Colegio Che Guevara." I think it is at least worth mentioning in the article. And if you don't like the picture I put up, there is also this one: Image:Colegiopoetryreading2.jpg

Granted, they are not the best quality pictures, but they are over 20 years old at this point, and they capture an aspect of history, whereas the picture of the magazine captures, well, a magazine that most English speakers who visit this site have never heard of. Further, the mural on the wall of the Colegio building seems relatively in keeping with the other picture, which is of a mural (of sorts) of Che on the outside of a building. Lastly, as I mentioned, the image is a "free image", which I've heard is preferable to a "fair use" image. -- Andrew Parodi 19:24, 13 June 2006 (UTC)

Addendum: If neither of those two pictures are deemed appropriate, perhaps, just perhaps, this one would be. This is a page out of Colegio Cesar Chavez's student catalogue, and on the wall behind the men you can see the Che mural on the wall: Image:Bookletche.jpg. If it is decided that none of these pictures are appropriate, could we perhaps get a consensus that at least mentioning Colegio in the legacy section is appropriate? If you want the source that talks about the fact that Colegio Che Guevara was an early consideration for the name, that is mentioned in this book: Colegio Cesar Chavez, 1973-1983: A Chicano Struggle for Educational Self-Determination. -- Andrew Parodi 19:31, 13 June 2006 (UTC)

Ciao,Image:Bookletche.jpg appears to be from a spanish language book or magazine of antique vintage and I notice that the uploader perhaps mistakenly labeled it self made. Improperly licensed images are not permitted in articles. It needs to have the source and proper license and then it may be considered after a concensus of editors is made. --Dakota ~ 21:23, 13 June 2006 (UTC)

The picture is of a page of the student catalogue of the Colegio Cesar Chavez, which is in both English and Spanish. As I mention on the photo description, there is no copyright information in that booklet whatsoever, nor is any photographer mentioned by name; the only way to know what era that catalogue is from is that it contains a schedule for classes for the year 1978. The institution the catalogue advertises went out of business in 1983. Therefore, finding the right tag is quite difficult for me. What would you suggest? (I placed the "self-made" tag there as a temporary tag, until I learned what tag would be more appropriate. I figured that in the meantime the "self-made" designation worked in a way, because I'm the one who scanned the catalogue.) As to the catalogue's source, as noted on the Colegio Cesar Chavez page, the catalogue is stored in the Oregon State University's Multicultural Archives, where it is made available to people studying Colegio Cesar Chavez. [3] -- Andrew Parodi 01:51, 14 June 2006 (UTC)

Hola,this image which is low resolution contains no mention of Che Guevara or visible image of same and is labeled fair use which is more restrictive in it's use than free images. It is relevant to Colegio César Chávez and perhaps César Chávez but seems to lack rationale in this article.--Dakota ~ 02:41, 14 June 2006 (UTC)

The mural of Che Guevara is on the wall (right side) above the seated man. I have a higher resolution of the picture. I put the fair use tag on it because you said the other tag wasn't appropriate. However, I am still pretty certain that "fair use" isn't even necessary because I think the copyright has expired, as there is no copyright information in the book, no list of photographers, the college was a non-profit institution, and the institution closed over 20 years ago.

If the picture isn't acceptable, would anyone have any problem with me at least including a mention of Colegio Cesar Chavez in the legacy section? I think it's relevant that there was a mural of him in this school, the only Hispanic four-year college in the nation, and that they had considered naming the school after him. Thanks. -- Andrew Parodi 04:01, 14 June 2006 (UTC)

If the Colegio Cesar Chavez had been named for Che Guevara instead of for Cesar Chavez that information might have been relevant for inclusion in the "Legacy" section of the Che Guevara article. The fact that the possibility of naming the Colegio for Che Guevara was considered, but it was decided instead to name it for Cesar Chavez means that it is not. This is a featured article and as such it must meet certain standards; it is already considered by some editors to be too long — that is why several of its sections have been split off into separate ('child') articles as you must have noticed since you have edited one of them, i.e. Che Guevara in popular culture. If you wish, we can explore the possibility of putting a link to the Colegio Cesar Chavez article in the Legacy category of the "See Also" section of the Che Guevara article. Then you can put any photos that you wish into the Colegio Cesar Chavez article (that I notice you are currently working on) and their quality and copyright status will not be of any concern to editors here. Does this alternative interest you? -- Polaris999 04:38, 14 June 2006 (UTC)

Yes, the inclusion of at least a link would be interesting. Thanks. And for verification purposes, in case you're interested, here is a picture I just took of a page from the book Colegio Cesar Chavez, 1973-1983: A Chicano Struggle for Educational Self-Determination. Thanks. -- Andrew Parodi 04:58, 14 June 2006 (UTC)

Comments requested: On the basis of the foregoing discussion, User:Andrew Parodi and I would like to propose that a link to the Colegio Cesar Chavez article be added to the Legacy category of the "See Also" section of the main "Che Guevara" article and we request the opinions of other editors about this.
Thank you -- Polaris999 14:29, 14 June 2006 (UTC)

I too see no reason why the link to Colegio Cesar Chavez could not be added to the Legacy category of the "See Also section".--Dakota ~ 14:43, 14 June 2006 (UTC)

Since three wikipedians are in support and no objections have been expressed, I have added a link to the Colegio César Chávez article to the Legacy category of the "See Also" section of the main Che Guevara article. -- Polaris999 14:37, 15 June 2006 (UTC)

Isn't it a micky mouse one - it looks funny.lol 222.154.55.35 01:39, 18 June 2006 (UTC)

I thought the photo of Che Guevara beside Ghandi was a bit peculiar. Is it asserted that Guevara was a non-violent revolutionary? DonPMitchell 04:45, 18 June 2006 (UTC)

The Der Spiegel article asserts that a synthesis has taken place between the followers of Gandhi and those of Guevara which has given rise to a new movement of "peaceful revolutionaries". -- Polaris999 06:45, 18 June 2006 (UTC)

Sorry for the late comment, but most English speakers will be no more familiar with Colegio Cesar Chavez (even though it was located in the U.S.) than they are with Der Spiegel. Probably most who are aware of one are also aware of the other. - Jmabel | Talk 16:12, 27 July 2006 (UTC)

The USA Today article

I was wondering if perhaps others agree that the USA Today article that is linked to in this article is useless: [4] It's not so much that I disagree or agree with the statements made (though I do agree and disagree with some statements), it's just that overall this seems to be a terribly written article. I know that goes without saying, as it is USA Today. But what I was wondering was if perhaps better quality articles could be linked to with regard to criticism of Che. I'm sure some of his critics have more substantial statements to make than what is mentioned in this article. I mean, the article seems to say that we should be thankful Che wasn't successful or else we wouldn't have iPods, and that if he had been successful than we'd all be raising donkeys. The tone of the article seems to me to be juvenile. Thanks. -- Andrew Parodi 09:33, 14 June 2006 (UTC)

The "Criticism" sub-section was contributed by some wikipedians who argued that the "Legacy" section of the article suffered from POV and that it was necessary that an "anti-Che" POV be presented to balance it. A consensus eventually developed that such "balance" was needed and the "Criticism" sub-section is the result. I believe that the particular editor who wrote the sentence including the reference to the USA Today article that you cite will be unable to respond to you because she has recently been permanently blocked from editing Wikipedia. I do not know whether some of the other people who collaborated with her in putting together that particular sub-section are still monitoring it and will wish to dialogue with you about the point you make (with which I personally tend to agree). While you are awaiting replies, my suggestion would be that, if you can find a better source than the USA Today article that says approximately the same thing, please bring it forward here on the Talk page so that others can see, evaluate and comment on the possibility of substituting it. -- Polaris999 14:17, 14 June 2006 (UTC)

Okay. I think the article touches on a good point. I think it's always unsettling to see political personalities turned into fashion icons by people who don't even know what they were about. But the article just isn't that good. Thanks. -- Andrew Parodi 01:21, 15 June 2006 (UTC)

Request for evaluation of proposed link for addition to External Links section

The following link was added to the "External Links" section (English category) a few hours ago by User:24.44.45.54 without prior discussion so I have transferred it over here to the Talk page so that wikipedians can comment as to whether or not it is appropriate for inclusion there.

• Che Guevara: Anatomy of a Myth video - interviews of people close to Che Guevara

If you support its inclusion, please comment also as to whether it should be placed in the "English" or "Spanish" category of "External Links".

Thank you -- Polaris999 14:24, 15 June 2006 (UTC)

Hi Polaris, I added the link. I was unsure whether it should be under "English" or "Spanish" because the page is in English, but the video is Spanish. Apparently, it is a video critique of Che (I don't understand Spanish, unfortunately). Since, articles are supposed to be NPOV, links can be to differing views, so I do think the link should be included, and would be of interest to some people. In any case, I don't think it should be removed or censored. Maybe the seperate English/Spanish links section is too restricting. Maybe "Other". 24.44.45.54 22:54, 17 June 2006 (UTC)

Hi 24.44.45.54 -- If it were to go into a category called "Other", don't you think that many people might interpret "Other" to mean a language other than English or Spanish? Since the video clip is totally in Spanish, perhaps it could go into the "Spanish" category with an explanation in the description of the link to the effect that the introductory page of text is in English but the video clip itself is in Spanish? -- Polaris999 01:03, 18 June 2006 (UTC)

Hi Polaris, You are probably right. The video is in Spanish. Frankly, it's kind of kooky the way they did that. English page, Spanish video. You would have thought that if someone is reading their page in English, they'd have a video dubbed in English available. I don't exactly know what the video is about, but it does look interesting. Have you watched it? I gather it's anti-Che, and you're pro-Che, so I appreciate your open-mindedness to allow a link to what you probably think is just propaganda. I usually try to look at all sides and try to make up my mind - which isn't always too easy. ;-) Anyway, will you move the link to the Spanish section, or should I? Thanks. P.S. What would you do with a web link to a page that is both English & Spanish!!

Hi 24.44.45.54 -- I am in a total quandary as to what to do with an external link to a page that is in both English & Spanish and that is why I asked for comments about how to handle it from other editors. I agree with you that it doesn't make sense that the intro page is in English and then the video clip 100% in Spanish without even providing English subtitles: One wonders exactly what audience the makers of this video were attempting to target with such a melange.

I was expecting that some Spanish-speaking wikipedians would view the videoclip and give their opinions about it so that I wouldn't have to give mine, but since no one has yet done so and you are eager to add the link, I will say that I have viewed and listened to it in its entirety and it is basically a group of senior citizens recalling their encounters with Che. The audio is not easy to listen to, but some of the video footage is interesting. It would be better to describe the individuals who speak on this video as "people who knew Che" rather than as "people who were close to Che" because in most cases they had only brief interactions with him. (There are some exceptions, such as Dariel Alarcón Ramírez aka "Benigno".) The same video footage is repeated over and over again in various sections which tends to make it quite boring after a while, On the positive side, it has the advantage that it presents real people expressing their views in their own words so that you don't have to wonder if they have been quoted correctly.

Why don't you go ahead and add it into the Spanish sub-section of "External Links" whenever you have the chance -- Polaris999 05:43, 18 June 2006 (UTC)

Che Guevara's house (again)

The Municipality of Rosario has just put up a sign indicating the location of Guevara's house (previously there wasn't any indication, then the current owners refused to let a plaque be placed directly on the house). I took a picture. The Municipality also sponsored a celebration of Guevara's 78th birthday with the presence of friends and the Cuban Ambassador (see poster). Just in case this is useful. —Pablo D. Flores (Talk) 19:27, 15 June 2006 (UTC)

Many thanks for bringing this to our attention. That is a very cool sign. I am going to try to figure out how to insert a link to it from somewhere within the main CG article. -- Polaris999 21:24, 15 June 2006 (UTC)

Comments invited

I am transferring this discussion from my Talk page to the Talk page of the Che Guevara article so that other wikipedians will be more likely to see it and can participate if they wish to do so ...

Background:

This discussion is focussed on the third sentence of the second paragraph of the "Criticism" sub-section of the main Che Guevara article. For many weeks that sentence had been as follows:

They assert that Che Guevara was responsible for the torture and execution of thousands of people in Cuban prisons, and the murder of many more peasants in the regions controlled or visited by his guerrilla forces.[61]

In two postings on 15 June 2006 , specifically. at 20:41, 15 June 2006 and at 20:43, 15 June 2006, User:12.98.133.245 modified the aforementioned sentence without prior discussion on this Talk page to read as follows:

They assert that Che Guevara was responsible for the torture and execution of thousands of people in Cuban prisons and labor camps, which targeted gays, dissidents, and AIDS patients [2], and for the murder of many more peasants in the regions controlled or visited by his guerrilla forces.[61]

As soon as I saw this modification I reverted it with the following explanation:

21:34, 15 June 2006 Polaris999 (rv because absurd -- Guevara died in 1967, AIDS wasn't even discovered until December 1981: See AIDS )

User:12.98.133.245 then began a discussion on my Talk page, as follows:

== Che ==

Hey, I noticed that you rv'd my edit about Guevara's persecution of "gays, dissidents, and AIDS victims", made under my IP address. I just wanted to let you know that that was not intended as vandalism. In fact, it is nearly verbatim from the [link that accompanied it http://www.slate.com/id/2107100/]. However, you definitely have a valid point, and this is perplexing. What do you make of it? JianLi 05:06, 16 June 2006 (UTC)

I make of it that www.slate.com is not a reliable source. I hope that you will raise the matter with them, and I would be very interested to hear their response. -- Polaris999 05:13, 16 June 2006 (UTC)

Slate (magazine) is owned by the Washington Post. And the San Francisco Chronicle makes a similar point: "This camp was the precursor to the systematic confinement of dissidents, homosexuals, AIDS patients, Catholics, Jehovah's Witnesses and Afro-Cuban priests." [5] JianLi 05:18, 16 June 2006 (UTC)

Ah, it seems that they are referring to Guanahacabibes in Pinar del Rio province which Guevara set up as a disciplinary center for officials working in the Ministry of Industries while he was the Minister. The violations in question had to do with things such as extreme administrative negligence, accepting bribes, etc. Definitely nothing at all to do with AIDS (which would have been impossible since, as we discussed above, AIDS was not discovered until 14 years after his death) or questions of sexuality or religious beliefs. What did happen was that after Guevara left Cuba, the Guanahacabibes camp was transferred away from the Ministry of Industries and taken over by some other state entity and what happened there subsequently I do not know. But surely Guevara can not be held responsible for any abuses that may have occurred in that place after he had resigned all of his government posts, renounced his Cuban citizenship, and left Cuba!

Since we are discussing this matter, I would like to invite your attention to the hypothetical question of how Guevara, as a doctor, might have responded to the AIDS epidemic had he lived long enough to become aware of it. Perhaps you have seen or read The Motorcycle Diaries? If so, you will know that he chose the specialty of Dermatology because he had a particular concern for the suffering of leprosy patients, and that the whole point of the trip related in The Motorcycle Diaries was to get to the San Pablo Leper Colony in Perú in order to do volunteer work there. If you saw the film, you will also have seen how he rebelled against the administrators of the Leprosarium because of the way they treated the lepers as if they were a sub-class of humanity, how he refused to wear the "mandatory" gloves when shaking hands with or treating the patients and thereby aroused the ire of the administrators, etc. Based on these facts, and on his strong sense of solidarity with all those who were suffering or oppressed for whatever reason, I personally believe that he would have been at the forefront of those in the medical community who are fighting for compassionate and comprehensive treatment for all individuals who have AIDS or are HIV-positive.

Well, I have told you my opinion about this, and now I would very much like to hear yours. -- Polaris999 06:21, 16 June 2006 (UTC)

(Note: I am signing this transfer here -- Polaris999 09:43, 16 June 2006 (UTC) )

I don't know what to make of the AIDS issue, since I am merely going off of these sources. I have in fact seen the movie, but do you not think that it might have had a skewed POV? (think of who wrote the book) In any case, my desire to edit this page stems from conversations I've had with a former Cuban exile whose relatives were executed in the labor camps run by Guevara. To say the least, she was frustrated by the idealistic image of Guevara predominant in American culture. JianLi 15:34, 16 June 2006 (UTC)

What is your own opinion of the extent of Guevara's involvement in labor camps and summary executions? I know that you have a great admiration for Guevara, based on how active you are in editing this article, but perhaps that makes it harder to look at the "less savory aspects of Guevara's life." My concern is that in the midst of his popularity, certain aspects of his life, which are necessary for the full historic truth, will be downplayed.JianLi 15:52, 16 June 2006 (UTC)

Re Guanahacabibes, it was basically a type of "boot camp" for wayward bureaucrats and I consider it to be of no particular significance. It would be interesting to see a study showing what percentage of the individuals who went through the program there actually changed their errant ways once they were released but I am not aware that one was ever done. As for La Cabaña, I consider it most regrettable that Guevara was given that assignment, and equally regrettable that he accepted it. I deem it extremely perplexing that this was the only "job opportunity" that could be found for the comandante who had just won the decisive battle of the insurrectionary war. I suppose that as a military officer he could not refuse the assignment, but I certainly wish he had. -- Polaris999 07:27, 17 June 2006 (UTC)

The quote is "He founded Cuba's "labor camp" system—the system that was eventually employed to incarcerate gays, dissidents, and AIDS victims." (italics mine). Slate's point isn't that Che killed AIDS victims (which is impossible), but he established a system that later killed AIDS patients. Kyle J Moore 18:34, 18 June 2006 (UTC)

Ahh, very nice Kyle. I can't believe I was stupid enough to not have seen that; now that I have, it explains the supposed "impossibility."JianLi 21:34, 18 June 2006 (UTC)

Important: Concerning the modified text you inserted into the "Criticism" sub-section, i.e.:

(cur) (last) 15:43, 16 June 2006 JianLi (→Criticism)

(cur) (last) 15:42, 16 June 2006 JianLi (→Criticism)

(cur) (last) 15:41, 16 June 2006 JianLi (→Criticism)

(cur) (last) 15:18, 16 June 2006 JianLi (I added the stuff from the sources, without the AIDS part)

you need to fill in all of the information required as per WP:CITE in the source notes you added (currently numbered 61, 62 and 64), and you also need to add the three sources you used to the "Websites" sub-section of the "References" section. Please do this urgently -- remember that because this is a featured article full citations are required to meet the standards set by the Wikipedia Community for such articles in order for your contributions to remain in the article.

Viz: "Wikipedia articles often include inline citations, and in the case of Featured Articles (formally "Brilliant Prose" articles) and Featured Articles Candidates, inline citations are considered mandatory. A full citation should then be added to the References section at the end of the article. ", excerpted from WP:IC. -- Polaris999 04:56, 17 June 2006 (UTC)

As the missing required information detailed above has not been provided, I am transferring the edits in question (highlighted in red below) to this page; please include full citations and references as described above if re-adding them. Also, with regard to the second, please bear in mind that one sentence paragraphs are not allowed (see WP:MOS) so this text must be modified in some way to make it into two sentences, or incorporated into one of the other paragraphs in the section.

They assert that Che Guevara was responsible for the torture and execution of thousands of people in Cuban prisons and labor camps, which targeted gays and dissidents^[1][2], and for the murder of many more peasants in the regions controlled or visited by his guerrilla forces.^[3]

In 2005, after Carlos Santana wore a Che shirt to the Academy Awards Ceremony, Cuban-born musician Paquito D'Rivera wrote an open letter castigating Santana for supporting "The Butcher of the Cabaña," the name of a prison where Guevara oversaw the execution of many dissidents, including D'Rivera's own cousin.^[4]

Polaris999 00:10, 18 June 2006 (UTC)

Thanks for the heads-up. I have now re-added them with full citations, in addition to adding the websites to the references:websites section. On a related subject, I can't help but noticing that many of the other websites cited aren't in the references:websites section, such as the various BBC articles. Should those be added to the references? JianLi 22:39, 18 June 2006 (UTC)

Thank you for adding the full citations and references. The "Criticism" section is looking better now. However, have you noticed that during the course of all of the recent editing of it someone (I didn't notice when it happened) has "orphaned" the comment about some critics thinking CG wasn't a doctor? Perhaps next time you are editing the section you might figure out how to merge that single sentence into another paragraph? That would be a great help if you would be willing to do it. Re the BBC websites that you point out are cited as sources but not included in the References section, definitely that situation needs to be corrected -- I'm not sure who added those links, so I'll try to fix them myself ASAP. Thank you for alerting me to them -- Polaris999 23:19, 18 June 2006 (UTC)

Timeline

Why can't I see the timeline? It's just a line for me. If I open directly the template, I see the same. NCurse _work 07:54, 18 June 2006 (UTC)

That is very puzzling. Can you see other Wikipedia timelines? -- Polaris999 08:08, 18 June 2006 (UTC)

Yes, it is. I can see the others. Can't understand why... :) NCurse _work 08:50, 18 June 2006 (UTC)

I made a minor modification to the template. If you have a chance to try viewing the timeline again, I would appreciate very much hearing the results. Thank you -- Polaris999 09:14, 18 June 2006 (UTC)

Great! Now it works. Thank you. :) NCurse _work 09:36, 18 June 2006 (UTC)

That is good news. Many thanks to you, NCurse _work, for bringing this problem to our attention! --Polaris999 16:59, 18 June 2006 (UTC)

Expression "Rough"

I'm a lifelong hiker and outdoorsman, and I've never heard this expression, to travel "rough". Is this British usage? Esbullin

I do not know in which country the usage originated, but I assume it is derived from the idiom "to rough it". The following is from The Free Dictionary

"Idiom:

rough it

To live without the usual comforts and conveniences: roughed it in a small hunting shack."

-- Polaris999 18:20, 18 June 2006 (UTC)

I think it is a bit British (also "to sleep rough", meaning to lie down wherever there is a space available, usually outdoors). I'm afraid I've bounced back and forth enough that if I learned a phrase past age 17 or so, I'm sometimes not sure which side of the Atlantic it comes from. - Jmabel | Talk 16:51, 27 July 2006 (UTC)

Single most important addition to this article

We need documentation on the statement attributed in this article to Guevara that had the nuclear missiles of the Cuban Missile Crisis been under Cuban rather than Soviet control, they (presumably meaning he and Castro) would have fired them against major US cities. No other aspect of this man's life is as important. If it is accurate, and he seriously favored the direct murder of millions in an act that would certainly have triggered all-out nuclear holocaust and the death of billions and a collapse of civilization, it is safe to say that history will eventually see him for what he must have been: a dangerous, malevolent lunatic. If it is not accurate, the debate will go on... I will be trying to ferret out sources on this, but my time and energy is severely limited due to illness. I urge others to find reliable references and link to or quote from them on this Talk page so we can craft a definitive paragraph on this point for the article. Thx. JDG 14:35, 18 June 2006 (UTC)

How is Jon Lee Anderson quoting the Daily Worker less than adequate documentation? - Jmabel | Talk 16:53, 27 July 2006 (UTC) I see this topic was re-opened below - Jmabel | Talk 18:36, 27 July 2006 (UTC)

Sentence with poor context

The following sentence appears in the Bolivia section: "In September, however, the Army managed to eliminate two guerrilla groups, reportedly killing one of the leaders". It isn't very clear what this means or how relevant it is. Who were these groups? Twittenham 16:23, 18 June 2006 (UTC)

Hello Twittenham. I have been waiting for some other editor to reply to your query but many of them are away from wikipedia now that summer has arrived. I just want to tell you that I think that your point is very well taken and that I will address it soon if no one else does. -- Polaris999 14:43, 5 July 2006 (UTC)

Reverted edit

I reverted an edit [6] by Ismoot adding that the operation capturing Che was a CIA and Special Forces Op. I left a msg on his user talk explaining that I did it b/c the edit didn't meet WP:V.--Kchase02 T 20:57, 18 June 2006 (UTC)

Hello Kchase02. I appreciate your diligence in applying the standards of WP:V to this article which tends to have many problems in that area.

As you have probably noticed, the role of the U.S. Army in the operation against Guevara's guerrillas is touched upon in the "Bolivia" section of this article, i.e.

He had expected to deal only with the country's military government and its poorly trained and equipped army. However, after the U.S. government learned of his location, CIA and other operatives were sent into Bolivia to aid the anti-insurrection effort. The Bolivian Army was being trained, and probably directly assisted, by U.S. Army Special Forces advisors, including a recently organized elite battalion of Rangers trained in jungle warfare.

Although the wikipedian who wrote that paragraph did not provide a source, I am able to do so. The document I would like to reference is entitled Memorandum of Understanding Concerning the Activation, Organization and Training of the 2d Ranger Battalion – Bolivian Army, and it can be found at Memorandum.

On the basis of this document and other materials I have studied, I believe that it would be more accurate to describe the operation in question as User:Ismoot did, i.e. "a CIA/ U.S. Army Special Forces-organized military operation" and therefore I would like to incorporate this change into the second paragraph of the lead section as he suggested. But, before doing so, I want to ask you whether you consider that the source I have cited is adequate to justify such an inclusion? -- Polaris999 02:43, 19 June 2006 (UTC)

Sort of a postscript here: I would like to mention another source. Henry Butterfield Ryan, in his book "The Fall of Che Guevara" has an entire chapter about the role of the U.S. Special Forces entitled "The Green Berets". It begins with the words:

"Bolivia is the best thing we ever did", said Major Ralph "Pappy" Shelton, leader of a Green Beret Mobile Training Team (MTT), the Pentagon's traveling groups that helped train friendly armed forces, mostly in the arts of counterinsurgency.

The "Green Berets" chapter covers pages 82-102 of the op.cit. -- Polaris999 03:32, 19 June 2006 (UTC)

Thanks for your diligent and conscientious responses, Polaris. Your sources look excellent and I now have no objection to referencing a joint U.S. Army Special Forces/CIA operation. I must admit that I didn't notice the reference to the Army in the Bolivia section. Thank you as well for pointing that out to me. Since you are a frequent editor of that article, I'll defer to your judgment about where best to place these references. I will contact Ismoot and update him. Thanks again.--Kchase02 T 03:54, 19 June 2006 (UTC)

Some time later, Guevara became a member of Fidel Castro's paramilitary 26th of July Movement, which seized power in Cuba in 1959. The use of Paramilitary in this sentence is incorrect in my opinion because the defintion of Paramilitary is [of, relating to, or being a group of civilians organized in a military fashion, especially to operate in place of or assist regular troops.] Seeing as the July 26th movement was not assisting regular troops, rather fighting them it would seem prudent to change that the word Paramilitary to Revolutionary.--Che777

Size

This article is 80 kilobytes long. Some parts could probably be trimmed off and placed in seperate parts. 64.111.128.11 23:47, 18 June 2006 (UTC)

Che Stadium

Isn't there a stadium named after Guevara?

"Che Stadium"?

72.82.195.2 01:32, 19 June 2006 (UTC)

Hola, in New York City, NY US there is Che Stadium.--Dakota ~ 19:18, 20 June 2006 (UTC)

Ouch... RadioKirk (u|t|c) 20:50, 20 June 2006 (UTC) ;)

I hope that was a very bad pun on your part.

72.68.171.50 23:01, 21 June 2006 (UTC)

It was quite a bad pun, very out of place but perhaps you were just kidding.--222.98.9.39 06:51, 26 June 2006 (UTC)

This link is for those not from the U.S. who may not have gotten the joke. -- Jmabel | Talk 16:56, 27 July 2006 (UTC)

The origin of this joke may possibly lie in the article on The Rutles (A British Beatles parody from the late 1970's). Britmax 21:10, 2 August 2006 (UTC)

Hagiography

At least, from my vantage point.

That's what this article seems like to me.

Do you think it would be possible to either substantially expand the criticism portion, or-at the very least-move it further up in the article?

72.68.171.50 23:26, 21 June 2006 (UTC)

If you have more information to include, you're welcome to do so. I don't see it as a puff piece, so I think the topical order is fine as it stands. —Down10 ^TACO 07:23, 22 July 2006 (UTC)

AIDS

"Cuba's labor camp system was eventually used to jail "gays, dissidents, and AIDS victims."" Its quite certain than Guevara himself didn't jail any AIDS victim.... Ericd 18:54, 26 June 2006 (UTC)

Exactly as you say, he most certainly did not. He also did not send any "dissidents, gays, or religious believers" there. The text in the "Criticism" section needs to be revised to make this clear -- would you perhaps be interested in undertaking this? (As you have probably seen elsewhere on this page, I have already dialogued at length about this matter, but it seems my point has not gotten through so I have given up trying to explain it.) -- Polaris999 13:09, 27 June 2006 (UTC)

Sentence removed because incorrect source was given

At 04:41, 18 June 2006, User:4.154.72.112 added the following sentence to the "Criticism" section:

Other commentators such as former radical radical David Horowitz derided Guevara's status among affluent Western youth as a symbol of adolescent rebellion by calling him "Jim Morrison with an assault rifle." ^[5]

The source given for the above statement is, first, not presented in the standard WP format as per WP:CITE; second, when I went to the amazon.com site to which it links and searched inside the book by David Horowitz presented there, the name "Morrison" did not appear on any page of the book, therefore the cited work cannot be the source for the statement in question (see WP:V).

While it is possible that Horowitz made such a statement, the correct source must be cited if it is to be included in the CG article, and this information must be provided both in a source note in the format used throughout this article (i.e., <ref></ref>) and in the appropriate section of the "References" section. -- Polaris999 06:31, 28 June 2006 (UTC)

Sorry, I obviously misremembered. If I find the exact source I'll resubmit. [[User:The Sanity Inspector|The Sanity Inspector}}

Good luck on finding it -- I thought it made a good wrap-up sentence there at the end of the "Criticism" section which is why I tried to find the necessary information to complete the source note and reference in order to keep it there. Am hoping you will have more success in sourcing it than I did so that it can be restored ... -- Polaris999 21:53, 3 July 2006 (UTC)

Follow-up: Perhaps this is a clue you can use in attempting to track down the quote. Having already searched exhaustively and unsuccessfully for any page combining the names "David Horowitz", "Che Guevara" and "Jim Morrison", and then for the statement itself, I decided to proceed on the hypothesis that someone other than David Horowitz might have made the comment in question. After several minutes of googling, this led me to the following:

In a 1987 article in Spin, Scott Cohen, in an imaginary meeting with Che in a cafe to discuss the revolution in America, compares Che to Jim Morrison (as to Fidel Castro's Jerry Garcia).

Do you think this attribution may be correct? If you ever happen to have access to the 1987 issues of Spin, perhaps you would want to look for the Scott Cohen article and see if he did indeed say it. BTW, the above sentence comes from a webpage [7] that has more than one error on it and cannot be considered a reliable source. -- Polaris999 02:13, 4 July 2006 (UTC)

Acta de Nacimiento de Ernesto Guevara de la Serna (Birth Certificate)

I think that makes it clear, doesn't it? "Al expresado niño se le ha puesto el nombre de Ernesto" (no middle name). BTW, and just in case: a Wikipedia article cannot serve as the source/reference for another Wikipedia article. You can take info from one WP to another, or between articles in the same WP, but that information can only be as good as its original sources. Ideally, every fact that is not widely known and uncontroversial should be sourced. —Pablo D. Flores (Talk) 19:11, 29 June 2006 (UTC)

I certainly do hope that it makes it clear and puts an end to the confusion once and for all. I am appending below a transcription to help people read the relevant section of the document more easily ... Polaris999 19:57, 29 June 2006 (UTC)

The pertinent excerpts from his official Birth Certificate, shown above, read as follows:

el día quince de junio de mil novecientos veintiocho a las diez y siete horas
Ante mí, Jefe encargado del Registro del Estado Civil, se presentó Don Ernesto Rafael Guevara domiciliado en calle Entre Ríos cuatrocientos ochenta de veintiocho años de edad de estado casado de nacionalidad argentina de profesión hacendado vecino de esta ciudad declarando
Que en su domicilio el día catorce del corriente mes de junio a las tres y cinco horas nació un niño de color blanco que es hijo legítimo suyo y de su esposa Doña Celia de la Serna y Llosa, de veintidos años de edad, argentina.
Que es nieto por línea paterna de Don Roberto Guevara y de Doña Ana Lynch y, por línea materna, de Don Juan Martín de la Serna y de Doña Edelmira Llosa y que al expresado niño se le ha puesto el nombre de Ernesto
Todo lo cual presenciaron como testigos Don Raúl Lynch de veintidos años de edad de estado soltero, de nacionalidad argentina, de profesión Marino domiciliado en esta ciudad y Don José Beltran de treinta años de edad, de estado soltero, de nacionalidad brasileña de profesión chofer.

(Signatures of Ernesto Guevara Lynch, the two witnesses, and the Jefe del Registro del Estado Civil appear at the bottom of the document.)

NB: The above Birth Certificate is on display in the Che Guevara Museum in Alta Gracia, Argentina q.v.: Che Guevara Museum and Room of Museum where his Birth Certificate is displayed as is described on that Museum's website in the following words:

"Sala Nº3 En esta sala, la cual fuera su dormitorio, se pueden observar fotografías y documentos relacionados con los primeros años de vida de Ernesto, tales como el Acta de Nacimiento de Rosario, el 14 de junio de 1928, fotografías de su paso por Misiones, o documentación autenticada de las escuelas a las que asistió."

And here is one additional piece of confirmatory evidence — the name that the Cuban Consejo de Estado inscribed on his coffin (which rests in the Che Guevara Mausoleum in Santa Clara) is Ernesto Guevara de la Serna, viz:Coffin of Che Guevara

Polaris999 19:59, 29 June 2006 (UTC)