Talk:Che (Spanish)

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It is che, no chi. Listen to Che ko Lobo Rory. Pomomaitei che py'aiteguive maymáva pehayhu ava ñe'ê.

In Guaraní, "che" is a first person pronoun; either as I or as my.

For example:
Che ru == mi padre == my father Poem Che ru, by Feliciano Acosta

che rógape == mi casa == my house Guarani - German - Spanish glossary

[edit] Old Spanish word ce?

Others, however, argue that the word che is derived from the old Spanish word ce (now in disuse).

What does (or did) ce mean? - jredmond 15:36, 23 Nov 2004 (UTC)

From Real Academia Española - Spain Royal Academy- CE : formerly used to call the attention or stop someone.

Ejrrjs 18:49, 23 Nov 2004 (UTC)

We should include that in the article, then; let me see if I can phrase it appropriately. - jredmond 19:24, 23 Nov 2004 (UTC)

I think this is the most likely root, by far. Argentina is one of the few places that continues to use antiquated Spanish courtly language in common conversation, evolved over time, of course. Over there we don't say "tu", we say "vos". This is especially more often the case in Buenos Aires than in the Andean regions, as is the case with "che"; simply put, as you get away from the city and the Spanish heritage, the population talks and looks more like that of surrounding countries. An evolution from "ce", a hardening of the word, really, would make sense, as Argentine Spanish has become Italianized over time, so that the soft-"y" "yo", in Buenos Aires is said more like "Sho". This article is waaay too reliant on correlation and conjecture. (Argentina Dan 00:27, 11 July 2007 (UTC))

[edit] les goddams

a phenomenon not unlike medieval French calling the English "les goddams" after the common exclamation uttered by the English. Is this a well-known slur in the English-speaking world? Does it help to understand the use of Che to refer to Argentinians? Otherwise, it does not belong here Ejrrjs 18:49, 23 Nov 2004 (UTC)

No, I just think it's better here than at Che Guevara, which is where I moved it from. Frankly, I could care less where it ends up, I just wanted it out of an obviously inappropriate place but it seemed a bit too good a morsel to delete outright. If you have a better suggestion, go for it. -- Jmabel | Talk 21:51, Nov 23, 2004 (UTC)

Obviously, "les goddamns" is not in current use either in France or English speaking countries. It is, however, a fairly well known fact to those familiar with British and French history. Those who are not familiar with this bit of history can easily infer it from the context. I'm going to restore it and make it clearer. Theanthrope 19:27, Dec 20, 2004 (UTC)

[edit] ¿Valencia?

Is che really used in Valencia? I've certainly never heard it. — Chameleon 14:18, 19 May 2005 (UTC)

Perhaps it is not that common but you can see, as a sample, this forum with an interchange in both Spanish and Valencià Ejrrjs | What? 18:02, 19 May 2005 (UTC)

Can you find more examples? — Chameleon 19:01, 19 May 2005 (UTC)

How many? :-) Ejrrjs | What? 19:14, 19 May 2005 (UTC)

Well, I don't think that the link clearly shows that Valencians use the term. — Chameleon 19:16, 19 May 2005 (UTC)

Are you asking me to develop an ethnologic study? Could I apply for a grant?

More stuff:

TEST PERA A VALORAR ELS TEUS CONEIXIMENTS DE VALENCIÀ

¡CHE QUE BÒ!

Charanga Che Que Bo

A forum "blavero" (sorry, couldn't get but the Google cache)

Now, I didn't have to spend too much effort, did I? Ejrrjs | What? 19:31, 19 May 2005 (UTC)

OK, I've found a dictionary definition at http://dcvb.iecat.net/; look up xe, the correct Catalan/Valencian form. There is a Spanish definition at http://www.diccionarios.com/; look up che. Both mention that it is used in Valencia. Great.

~~It's really not common though~~. The word that Valencians really say all the time is nano. — Chameleon 19:58, 19 May 2005 (UTC)

The DRAE agrees.

Regarding Valencian, I would say that xe is the normative form (there are no rights and wrongs in the dialect continuum). Some guys will object. Ejrrjs | What? 20:50, 19 May 2005 (UTC)

BTW, I've updated the article to reflect this interchange. Ejrrjs | What? 20:50, 19 May 2005 (UTC)

I've been questioning some Valencians, and it seems it's more common than I thought. — Chameleon 17:34, 3 Jun 2005 (UTC)

[edit] Brazil

It seems that tchê (same meaning) is used in Rio Grande do Sul Portuguese. I'll try to get some support on this before updating the article. Ejrrjs | What? 01:19, 17 August 2005 (UTC)

[edit] Possible older etymology

I have no idea how true this is, but is it possible that "che" or "ce" in Spanish is a Moorish relic? The arabic language uses the word "sheikh" شيخ to denote an elder. However it is and has been used as a "guy" equivalent when referring to a person directly. The dialectic variation of the meaning could match any of the meanings listed for "che" both in the article and talk pages. I have it on authority of a university Spanish professor that this is the case. However I have found no other sources and am out of contact with the professor. Can anyone check on this possible entymology of the word, or at least rule it out? —Preceding unsigned comment added by Angrynight (talk • contribs) 18 Feb 2006

[edit] Italian?

I was always under the impression that the argentines used it because Che meant "guy" in italian. I just looked it up and apperantly it doesnt particularly mean that but its a very common word and maybe is colloquially used to mean "guy". That would be a very easy and plausible explanation considering Argentina's prominent Italian backround. —The preceding unsigned comment was added by 65.9.143.23 (talk • contribs) 18 April 2006.

[edit] Che Donalds - McGuevara

What is duplicated is the "See also" header. And no, I don't think that Guevara's biography is a valid addendum wrt the meaning of the word che. User:Ejrrjs says What? 19:49, 4 May 2006 (UTC)

[edit] More on the word

This note was left on Talk:Che Guevara recently. It seemed more relevant here, so I've copied it over. - Jmabel | Talk 01:11, 9 August 2006 (UTC)

Just wanted to add that the term "che", which is identical in use and pronunciation as the catalan vocative "xé", has been tracked back to the medieval Spanish word, "ce" (pronounced "tse"), whose purpose was to address someone whose name was not known (in Lombardy, North Italy, there's a "ce" word as well, with similar meaning and pronunciation). This spanish term is assumed to derive from the latin "st" (as documented in Cicero and Terentius, among others). Sources for this explanation are Athos Espíndola ("Diccionario del Lunfardo", Buenos Aires, 2002) and Angel Rosenblat ("Filología" magazine, Buenos Aires, 1962). Sadly, I could not find online links to those resources. Other, less well accepted, ethymologies track this word back to the mapuche language (which is an aborigin population of Argentina), where the word "che" should mean "man" or "son", the very name of this people contains the word: mapu-che (which literally should mean "man", or "son", "of the earth").… --EmirCalabuch

[edit] Che is not used in Costa Rica

"Che" is not used in Costa Rica as a vocative* as the user Ejrrjs states. The word we use for that purpose is mae or maje. No one really uses "che" unless he is trying to fake the argentinan "accent".

Fine with me; that is not something I *stated* anyway. See Revision as of 14:42, 4 May 2005 (edit)

by Elpincha. Ask him to know why he stated that. User:Ejrrjs says What? 22:32, 17 September 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Che is also mapuche

Mapuche

Mapuche (Mapudungun; Che, "People" + Mapu, "of the Land") are the original Amerindian inhabitants of Central and Southern Chile and " There are many cognates or semi cognates between Indigenous South American languages.

El Jigue (that is Taino water demon) 11-12-06

Classical Spanish used the word "ce" (pronounced /tse/, very close, then, to current pronunciation of Valencian and Argentinian "che") with the same meaning that American "che". Also some Andalusian people (my own mother, for instance) use "se" with the same meaning (and Andalusian people were the predominant first settlers in Río de la Plata). The American "che" seems to have a very clear Spanish origin. —The preceding unsigned comment was added by 80.102.192.48 (talk • contribs) 1 January 2007.

[edit] Both?

From the discussion here, it looks to me like there's two original words:

Spanish ce, "hey"
Native South American che, "man"

When the cultures met, they ended up with one word with both meanings. Wouldn't be the first time that sort of thing has happened... my memory's failing me for another good example at the moment, though. -- Jake 22:14, 22 February 2007 (UTC)

As a Seattleite, I can tell you that Japanese hai! ("yes") and American hi! (greeting) tend to merge among Japanese Americans here, so that a distinctly Japanese hai! becomes a greeting. But I'm getting off topic. And unless we can find a citation for the merged etymology, it would be OR to suggest it. - Jmabel | Talk 00:51, 14 March 2007 (UTC)

But che doesn't mean man in Spanish. That is, you have three meanings for "X", one that is documented in Older Spanish and is still used in València and another one with a different meaning ("man") and a 3rd one with still another meaning ("my"). Could it be...a coincidence? We're not talking about Rumpelstinkin after all. User:Ejrrjs says What? 21:08, 14 March 2007 (UTC)

I am guessing that you mean Rumpelstiltskin? - Jmabel | Talk 23:07, 11 April 2007 (UTC)

Yup, which illustrates my point. User:Ejrrjs says What? 08:59, 12 April 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Comparable to 'buddy'?

Is it correct to add that the word in its use as a reference to an unnamed person is the same to the word "buddy" as used in Canada (and maybe some parts of the USA, although I am not sure about this as I only heard it since I moved to Canada from Britain)?

Also, maybe equivalent to "yer man" which is used in Britain, I think of Irish or specifically Ulster origin. It means literally Your man and is used when you refer to a third person, someone whose name you do not know/recall but which is known by the person you are speaking to. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 74.101.188.154 (talk) 11:23, 8 October 2007 (UTC)