Talk:Charlottesville, Virginia

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Charlottesville, Virginia was a good article nominee, but did not meet the good article criteria at the time. There are suggestions below for improving the article. Once these are addressed, the article can be renominated. Editors may also seek a reassessment of the decision if they believe there was a mistake.

Reviewed version: November 19, 2006

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Contents

[edit] Press Release?

The UVA stuff reads like a press release. Wikipedia's purpose is to serve as an encyclopedia, not an advertisement. I removed some of the POV language from the description.

[edit] Accuracy of Mosby and Lewis Birthplaces

  • The page on Meriwether Lewis claims he was born "in Albemarle County, Virginia (near Charlottesville)", not in Charlottesville.
  • The page on John S. Mosby claims he was born in Powhatan County.

Which pages are correct?

Lewis was born in Albemarle County, near Charlottesville. I rode my school bus everyday past the historical marker of Lewis' birthplace on the way to Meriwether Lewis Elementary School. Its quite close to the small town of Ivy.RebelAt 22:16, 6 December 2005 (UTC)

Any school child in Albemarle knows that both Lewis & Clark were born in Albemarle, Lewis near Ivy (I, too, rode my school bus past the historical marker) and Clark a stone's throw from the modern city borders. It confuses things that Charlottesville was, at the time, only a few square miles, and Albemarle was four times bigger. Charlottesville grew once it was named the county seat (replacing Scottsville), at the time that the overly-large Albemarle was subdivided.

Here's a picture and a map of the location of the historical marker, confirming the location of Lewis' birth. And here's the historical marker for Mosby, showing that he was born in Powhatan, but moved to Charlottesville at the age of 8.

[edit] McGuffey

What is meant by this statement:

Also, William McGuffey lived in Charlottesville while serving as a professor at the University, but no one really knows who William McGuffey was.

He is certainly well known enough in Charlottesville to have had a school named after him.


Went in and erased the second part of the above sentence. The article link from his name pretty much explains who exactly was our Mr. McGuffey.RebelAt 22:43, 28 December 2005 (UTC)

[edit] Rob Garland

A cheesy attempt at marketing by a local photogapher. Don't abuse the good will of Wikipedia. Shame, shame, shame on you.

[edit] Failed GA

As of November 19, 2006, I am sorry, but I must fail this article for the following reasons (although failure may not be limited to these reasons):

1. It is well written. In this respect:

(a) it has compelling prose, and is readily comprehensible to non-specialist readers; (b) it follows a logical structure, introducing the topic and then grouping together its coverage of related aspects; where appropriate, it contains a succinct lead section summarising the topic, and the remaining text is organised into a system of hierarchical sections (particularly for longer articles); (c) it follows the Wikipedia Manual of Style including the list guideline; (d) necessary technical terms or jargon are briefly explained in the article itself, or an active link is provided.

  • The history portion of the article contains very little background about Charlottesville itself; most of the information is about people who are claimed to have come from the city.
  • Although the writing is certainly comprehensible, I would not consider it compelling.
  • Manual of Style errors include some of the section headings. Also, there are too many external links.

2. It is factually accurate and verifiable. In this respect:

(a) it provides references to any and all sources used for its material; (b) the citation of its sources using an accepted form of inline citation is required (this criterion is disputed by editors on Physics and Mathematics pages who have proposed a subject-specific guideline on citation, as well as some other editors — see talk page); (c) sources should be selected in accordance with the guidelines for reliable sources; (d) it contains no elements of original research.

  • Much material has not been referenced and therefore cannot be verified; for example, "Edgar Allan Poe lived in the city..."

and "It is home to the Downtown Mall, one of the longest outdoor pedestrian malls in the nation..." Full references are required by Wikipedia.

Conclusion: I believe this article can become a Good Article with some work. More background about Charlottesville itself is definitely required, and more statements must be referenced. The only other issue is that the Manual of Style should be reviewed. Still, the article could use some more expansions, as some sections are stubs (Education). With a good bit of work, this article may be renominated. Dhastings 02:45, 20 November 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Removed

I removed the following:

Charlottesville has become way too pretentious. At one time it was a great hippy, intellectual community, now it is the land of the snobs and errogant. It is divided between the haves and have nots. The City overassessed the property values to bring in a larger tax base and drove the housing costs up. As a result the city is now fully gentrified. This has caused the crime rate to go up 11% in 2006, the housing market to be saturated, the homeless population to increase, traffic to be more than the infrastructure to manage and the wonderful rural landscape to be destroyed by devlopers. True Charlottesvillians are very upset, and fellow Wiki's need to know this. That's the truth.

That is considered vandalism right?

Aidepikiwym 19:30, 13 January 2007 (UTC)

No, its not vandalism, per se. Its non sourced POV, which makes its removal a proper action. ~ (The Rebel At) ~ 22:16, 13 January 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Deletion of City Seal

Anyone know why this was deleted? Fair use doctrine is pretty wide across all of Wikipedia for such usage and virtually every town, city, county, and state, articles make exactly the same uses. ~ (The Rebel At) ~ 22:18, 13 January 2007 (UTC) ___________________________________________________________________________

Changed 'King George III of England'. England and Scotland became one country in 1707 (by mutual consent) so King George III was King of the United Kingdom. Just as Elizabeth II is not 'Queen of England' as some people are so fond of saying. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 81.132.44.1 (talk) 13:01, 4 October 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Re-ordered the sections.

The order of the sections was:

  • Geography and history
  • Attractions & culture
  • Notable people of Charlottesville
  • Sports
  • Media
  • Transportation
    • Rail transportation
  • Demographics
  • Education
  • Sister cities
  • References
  • External links

I changed it to:

  • Geography and history
  • Attractions & culture
  • Sports
  • Transportation
    • Rail transportation
  • Media
  • Education
  • Demographics
  • Notable people of Charlottesville
  • Sister cities
  • References
  • External links

In my previous edit, I made a new Transportation section by expanding the transportation info that was in the Intro. Also I made the long Rail section a subsection of Transportation.

I re-ordered the sections to de-emphasize the "Notable people" section. See the "Failed GA" critique above: "most of the information is about people who are claimed to have come from the city."

I grouped Media with Education. The order is still sort of random, but less random than before. —Preceding unsigned comment added by Colfer2 (talk • contribs) 05:40, 2 November 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Notable Blogs

The blogs listed under Media are: "cvillenews.com by Waldo Jaquith, theHook.net by the Hook weekly and cVillain.com by the community members." I undid this addition: ", a media property of local boutique investment bank, DeParis Redinger LLC(link), with content created solely by the community."

A user commented about my undo on my User Talk page. The comment said:

The last line of the local media blogs states each blog/url with the content owner: readthehook-hook, cvillenews-waldo, how is cVillain-DeParis Redinger any different?

WaldoJ responded:

Better not to credit me at all, IMHO, than go down the road of crediting each owner of each named blog. Honestly, I'm not sure that any of us ought to be listed at all. I can't see why any of these three blogs should be listed in an entry about something as broad as the entire city.--WaldoJ 18:43, 9 November 2007 (UTC)

Any other opinions? The addition did not seem notable to me. I visited the linked Deparis website http://www.depred.com and Googled also to an article about its acquisition of the cVillain blog: http://www.c-ville.com/index.php?cat=141404064420311&ShowArticle_ID=11432910074040841 as well as a press release. Still didn't seem notable to me, more promotional. "Waldo Charlottesville" has a lot deeper Google results.

And are these really the top 3 blogs? I won't comment on quality, just notability. Waldo, don't you know a site that ranks them?

Opinions? For now, I will add CvilleBlogs.com, it lists all 3 in question + many more. - Colfer2 19:28, 9 November 2007 (UTC)

There really is no fair, objective ranking. For instance, while my site comes out on top in a PageRank comparison, one really can't measure the impact of a site locally using PageRank. My site likewise comes out on top with regard to incoming links but, again, that isn't a fair metric given the paucity of strictly local websites inclined to link to other strictly local websites. How long a site has existed likewise favors my site but also isn't a reasonable metric. (C-Ville Weekly has existed far longer than The Hook, but I can't see that one has a greater impact than the other.)
Linking to Charlottesville Blogs seems like a reasonable solution, although even that's not fair of me to say, since I run that site, too. I wish I could provide some feedback other than what's not fair, but that's all I've got. :)--WaldoJ 23:30, 12 November 2007 (UTC)

I reverted the addition a blog called outskirts.com because it did not have much activity on it and Googling showed not much popularity. Not notable. Colfer2 (talk) 23:38, 3 January 2008 (UTC)

[edit] Musicians

What is a good new band policy? Once this section was totally out of hand with unknown bands mixed with well known bands in no particular order. So we alphabetized it and removed any musicians without their own Wikipedia pages. Simple enough criteria. What now? Sons of Bill is pretty notable, they've been reviewed a lot, etc., but have no Wikipedia page yet. I deleted the addition of their link on Charlottesville, Virginia with this comment:

Removed new musician without a wikipedia page. Make a new wikipage, if it does not get deleted after a week, link to it here. Otherwise it gets totally out of hand. Or argue it in discussion.

Will that work? Wait to see if obscure band's new page gets deleted??????? Colfer2 (talk) 05:58, 8 January 2008 (UTC)

Somebody from a musictoday.com IP (24.75.69.134) added Don Barnes of 38 Special. Any support for that? -Colfer2 (talk) 15:32, 18 April 2008 (UTC)

I've never heard of either the guy or the band, FWIW. I see that the band was big when I was a wee lad, though, so that may be why.--WaldoJ (talk) 20:01, 18 April 2008 (UTC)

[edit] Break Out Notable People?

Perhaps it's time to establish a separate entry for notable people from C'ville? (To pick a city at random, List of people from Seattle, Washington performs the same function for Seattle.) There really have been a substantial number of notables from here over the centuries, and the list is getting a bit unwieldy. Any support/objections?--WaldoJ (talk) 21:11, 23 April 2008 (UTC)

Support... ;) Queerbubbles | Leave me Some Love 21:15, 23 April 2008 (UTC)
At its present size, I definitely support. Create a small paragraph highlighting perhaps three or four of the really famous folks, like Jefferson for example, and just paste the link to the new article above it.~ (The Rebel At) ~ 22:12, 23 April 2008 (UTC)
Funny thing. This page already exists, it's just that nobody (apparently) knows about it. Since the matter was settled before I ever brought it up, I'll add the appropriate category tag to all of the pages listed directly on the Charlottesville entry, remove all of the names from this entry, and then add a link to the category.--WaldoJ (talk) 02:01, 24 April 2008 (UTC)
Way to do some legwork there, babe. Wooty on not making a redundant page.  :) Queerbubbles | Leave me Some Love 11:05, 24 April 2008 (UTC)
I'm actually mixed. Since its really a category page, versus an article page, there's a limit on what information is available. One cannot differentiate by profession or why these individuals are notable without following up on the individual's personal page. The category serves the purpose on the most basic and barest level. I think an actual article would be an improvement.~ (The Rebel At) ~ 12:40, 24 April 2008 (UTC)
Since my interest was simply in getting all of that stuff off the article page, all I can offer is a hearty handshake and a clap on the back. :) But I do agree that the category page does have the shortcomings that you describe. --WaldoJ (talk) 12:58, 24 April 2008 (UTC)
Yeah, categories aren't really used in place of content in Wikipedia, so the removal of text may have been a bit hasty, but then again WP:BOLD, so I'm glad you took action on that preening list of names. As for categories, usually there is a sub-article, summarized in the main article, apart from any categories. "People from Charlottesville" would not be a sub-article, but, say "Charlottesville musicians", or "Charlottesville bigwigs we like to name drop on" would be. The best way is the integrate the names into the article in real sentences and paragraphs, rather than a list. You mentioned Seattle, and that's what Seattle#Culture looks like, with a sub-article too, Arts in Seattle. Also, mention of "Wikipedia" itself (now in the "See also") is to be avoided, as I understand it. -Colfer2 (talk) 15:32, 24 April 2008 (UTC)
D'oh. Well, thank god for WP:BOLD. :) I've just retitled that "See also" link, but it's just goofy. The fact that I can't think of good text (or find decent examples) tells me that I might be doing something I shouldn't be.--WaldoJ (talk) 16:56, 24 April 2008 (UTC)
I think it looks just fine... but then again, people dont normally ask me. So, yeah.  :P Queerbubbles | Leave me Some Love 17:15, 24 April 2008 (UTC)
Until someone wants to write all those name-y people into a narrative paragraph, I think the article is fine like it is. We have an interesting music scene, from UVa & Tuesday Evening to endless student glee clubs to CHS's award-winning bands to various takes on hillbilly (serious & less so), rock, r&b, music resource center, hiphop, jazz, brazilian, etc. I'm feeling too lazy to write it up now. :) With refs! -Colfer2 (talk) 17:32, 24 April 2008 (UTC)
I don't think its really required (short of making a perfect article) to put all the names into a long narrative paragraph, at least not initially. Like one of my good faith promises (that seem to die to a busy schedule), I'll certainly try to create an article (as well a blurb on the main page) sometime in the next two weeks or so unless someone beats me to it.~ (The Rebel At) ~ 12:54, 29 April 2008 (UTC)
I went back, copied the list from the main page and dropped it into its own article as a list, here. I also added a small paragraph under demographics with the above link. Please feel free to edit the paragraph, I don't feel its as good as it could be. The list, though, at least sorts names by type of importance and allows for blurbs on who the folks are if their names do not make such as readily apparent.~ (The Rebel At) ~ 14:31, 1 May 2008 (UTC)

[edit] Nicknames

As someone who grew up in Charlottesville, I'm familiar with "C'ville" and "Hoo-ville (more a sports nickname)," but I'm completely unfamiliar with the nickname "The Hook." I'm aware of the free newszine, The Hook, and their website states that the city earned it due to the propensity of UVa students getting C's on their report cards. A google search only reveals the assertion connected to the newszine The Hook (referencing why it chose that name). Can anyone shed any light on this nickname? I simply find it odd that I could spend the first 18 years of my life, plus yearly visits home to the folks, without ever hearing of it. Is there some sort of UVa institutional traditional nickname?~ (The Rebel At) ~ 19:37, 28 May 2008 (UTC)

It was more common in the 1950s I think and has a dual meaning, the second being people who move to Cville and get stuck. These days it's probably said about as often as "Frisco" is for San Fran, that is, not much. -Colfer2 (talk) 19:57, 28 May 2008 (UTC)