Talk:Charlotte of Mecklenburg-Strelitz

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[edit] Charlotte, North Carolina

Was Charlotte, North Carolina also named after her? Michael Hardy 00:02, 8 Dec 2003 (UTC)

Yes. It's even the county seat of Mecklenburg County, North Carolina. RickK 00:06, 8 Dec 2003 (UTC)

[edit] 15th century through six lines?

What does "in the 15th century through six lines" mean? RickK 02:39, 5 Jan 2004 (UTC)

[edit] Racial stuff

What a shame, here we are at the start of the 21st century...and look at some of these messages. Given the great degree of intermarriage among European royalty, and the countless mistresses of various kings throughout European history, it is far from unreasonable that people fooled around with courtiers of partial non-white ancestry. Since powerful noblemen who had liasons with non-European (typically black) had the capital to ensure that their offspring would benefit from their connections to and membership within aristocracies (by the 18th century of an international and readily-intermarrying quality) (and they need not be courtiers; African slavery was known in Europe certainly by the 18th century, and I'm sure that quite men slept around with their slaves; Thomas Jefferson was no exception), then it isn't an outlandish assumption that some of these aristocrats had non-white ancestry. Get over it, Europe has never been "purely" white, and the royal families are not exempt from the tendency of humans to readily breed with the taboo "Other." By the way, one cannot look at a person and judge his or her alleged racial ancestry, so looking at portraits is really beside the point (see the entry below mine). Kemet 9 Dec 2005

The whole "Queen Charlotte was black" thing is total garbage. Look at Queen Charlotte's great-great-great-great-great grandparents: [1]):

They are, without exception, German, Danish, Swedish, Polish, or Dutch. There is no obvious connection from that list of even how she would be related to the Portuguese royal family. Any descendancy she would have from this supposed possibly black woman would have to be shared with the entirety of Europe's royals. john k 23:13, 8 Feb 2005 (UTC)

This is precisely the kind of thing historians would love to cover up. I guess it's just unphantomable that the British monarchy has African ancestry, isn't it. Look at the PBS site in the link provided in the article and plenty others. --Kvasir 03:46, 23 Apr 2005 (UTC)

Sigh. I suppose it's possible that she was the illegitimate love child of the Duchess of Mecklenburg-Strelitz and a black man. Or something. But, so far as I am aware, there is no evidence to support this. In her acknowledged ancestry, there is no obvious African connection that she would not share with just about every other European royalty. It's perfectly possible that all European royalty has a slight amount of black ancestry. But there is no particular evidence that this comes from Charlotte, save her alleged "mulatto" features. john k 05:21, 23 Apr 2005 (UTC)

It is actually quite certain that all European royalty has a slight amount of black ancestry. The studies on Most Recent Common Ancestor show that everyone has some ancestry in all parts of the planet. No need to cover up. Royals are as black as all the others. 217.140.193.123 09:44, 25 July 2005 (UTC)

The frontline commentary, BTW, is utterly unconvincing. Charlotte shares her descent from Margarita de Castro y Susa, who may not even have been black, with large numbers of European royalty who did not have black features. Furthermore, I am not convinced that this oft-repeated story is even true. Looking at the very comprehensive pedigree for Charlotte at genealogics, one has to go back a dozen generations just to get to a Portuguese infanta. Looking at that Portuguese infanta's ancestry going back 8 generations, I see no signs of "Margarita de Castro e Sousa." Describing the Sousas as "the black branch of the Portuguese royal family" seems even more dubious. So, if true, this supposed evidence is unconvincing, and it doesn't even seem to be true. john k 05:48, 23 Apr 2005 (UTC)

Ah, I've found out more. Margarita de Castro did exist, and Charlotte (along with pretty much all of the rest of the Protestant European nobility, including such noted mulattoes as George III) was descended from her in multiple ways. However, Margarita de Castro herself was not "black." She was distantly descended from an African mistress of the medieval King Alfonso III of Portugal. All of the intervening marriages seem to have been to proper Portuguese. So, yes, Queen Charlotte (and George III) had multiple descents from the African mistress of the 13th century King Alfonso III of Portugal. We don't even know if she was black! To speculate that whatever "African" appearance Queen Charlotte may have had was due to this very distant descent, when most of her ancestors were Germans, is highly dubious. john k 05:57, 23 Apr 2005 (UTC)

The research did not say she was a love child of the Duchess of Mecklenburg-Strelitz and a black man. The reseach says her ancestry came from Portugal and the African connection was shown as early as the 15th century, THREE centuries before her birth. Nevermind the racially motivated "negroid" appearance that had sparekd the researches. There had been independent researches done on this, what more evidence do you need? DNA? Why can't the researches regarding the Queen's ancestory even be mentioned? Obviously there had been reasons significant enough for the academic community to pay attention to the matter. Besides, an African ancestry doesn't mean she's "black". Another article I've found points to Moorish origin.
Personally it means nothing to me whether she is considered black or not, but the fact is, the researches did occurred and they were about the Queen, no doubt about that. I don't see why this can't even be part of the article. The current Queen acknowledged her African ancestory during her own coronation. If she's not afraid to say it, why are you? --Kvasir 06:13, 23 Apr 2005 (UTC)

No, the connection to Portugal is in the 15th century. The connection to Africa is through that Portuguese connection, in the 13th century. Most protestant royalty in Europe are descended from this same Portuguese connection, including George III. Why is this information more relevant to Charlotte's article than it is to George III's, or to that of Goethe's patron, Karl August of Saxe-Weimar, who were also descendants of Margarida. The basic issue is that this fact is of no particular relevance to Charlotte's article. The only reason it is mentioned is because there have been claims that Charlotte is "black." And this descendancy was dug up to prove it. But the fact that Charlotte can claim three descents from Margarida (not six, as the article claims), is pointless. According to a thread on alt.talk.royalty on the subject, she can claim about a hundred descents from Margarida's near contemporary, Christian I of Denmark. Why is any of this relevant? If you want to create an article on Margarida de Castro, and the fact that through her a great percentage of northern European royalty derive an African descent, that's fine. But it's utterly irrelevant to Charlotte's article, just as it would be irrelevant to George III's and to Karl August of Weimar's. john k 22:28, 23 Apr 2005 (UTC)

John, NOBODY IS SAYING SHE WAS BLACK. Read that carefully again, okay? NOBODY ... IS ... SAYING ... QUEEN ... CHARLOTTE ... WAS ... BLACK. You don't have the information in front of you, all the scholar's research, just parts of it online, so why are you so inclined to dismiss it out of hand? However ... A, it is fact that her ancestry has become of interest to scholars of the African diaspora in recent years. B, those studies have been given large play in the media, at least in America. C, her features were commented on during her life. D even one of her leading biographers noted this. Why is this a problem for you? It's just background, deep background. You seem like you're taking this so personally. The paragraph has been written in a very tightly focussed, very careful use of language. Leave it alone. Mowens35 21:00, 26 Apr 2005 (UTC)
It doesn't matter if the basis for the research was true, she was the one used to show African connection. Yes, other noble and royal houses of Europe could have the same African ancestry, so what? Would you have a problem dealing with that if it was true? The fact of the matter is, Charlotte was singled out in significant number of works. --Kvasir 02:03, 24 Apr 2005 (UTC)
Perhaps it should be mentioned, but we certainly shouldn't report falsely on it. We need to give the context for it. Basically, the fact is this: there's a few vague references, and some pictures, which make Queen Charlotte look like she might have some African blood. This caused people to look into her genealogy. They discovered that, like most of the rest of northern European royalty, she descends from a 15th century Portuguese lady named Margarita de Castro. This Portuguese lady descends in the maternal side from an illegitimate son of the 13th century King of Portugal Affonso III. The mother of this bastard apparently was of African origin. But was probably Arab or Berber - that is, not Subsaharan African. I don't see why this is a significant fact about Charlotte. Why shouldn't we add the same thing to George III, to Karl August of Weimar, to Christian IX of Denmark, and so on and so forth, if it's so notable? Christian IX of Denmark was the black king of Denmark! Goethe's patron, a negro! This is all silliness, and hasn't the slightest significance. If we are to deal with this we should perhaps mention that some people have suggested black blood for Queen Charlotte, but that genealogical research can only show a very slight amount of African blood which may not be black and which she shares with the rest of European royalty - that is to say, genealogical research actually debunks the idea that she was black, rather than strengthening it. john k 02:45, 24 Apr 2005 (UTC)
On the contrary, her apparent African (note that i've never specified Subsaharan or North African except when quoting other's works) ancestry debunks the infamous One-Drop Theory that had ruled America and European nations for centuries. Whether her ancestors were considered black, mixed or Moorish is unimportant. It is the notion that she and her decendants may have NON-EUROPEAN blood that policy makers and historians alike up in arms over, the POV typical of history written by those in charge, namely Europeans. This is truly the double standard that is at work here. I guess the One-Drop Theory doesn't apply when it comes to royalty who has a very remote non-European ancestry can be easily and should be disregarded; yet it is the perfect basis to segregate visible minority when it comes convenient. If they would apply the One Drop Theory to its strictest sense of the word just like you have, YES we'd have a black King of Demark. And you wouldn't have given this example if you didn't find this notion of a black Danish monarchy ridiculous and unacceptable. History had shown us that if Hitler were to apply his own racial policy to himself, he would be on his way to Auschwitz. The fact that he could impose his policies was that he had the power to. This shows the labels of black and white are totally decided upon by society, not by lineage. The difference between the Portugese/British royal houses and the rest of those in Europe is that the Portuguese and the British had acknowledged an African connection. Portugal used the African lineage to justify colonial expansion into Africa, and QEII claimed, during her coronation, the lineage as her basis for the monarchy to rule over the Commonwealth. Whether this was done solely to justify their means or not is not the point of this discussion. But the fact that they have admitted it makes it all the more official. The rest of them are possibly just hiding in their little closets.
Further more, this whole business of Charlotte's non-European lineage should be mentioned here in this article because it is the very researches dealt into Charlotte's genealogy that formed the basis of the current British royal house's claim of African lineage, as well as contemporary politics such as the abolition of slavery. I don't have a problem about this lineage not mentioned for most other European royal houses because it was, in fact, insignificant with respect to their country's historic context. --Kvasir 07:06, 24 Apr 2005 (UTC)

Sigh. Hitler did not have a Jewish grandfather. That's a myth. I'd add that German/Austrian one-quarter Jews who did not practice their religion were, in fact, not murdered, for the most part. Why should I take someone seriously who repeats that hoary old nonsense? Who believes in the one drop theory at this point, anyway? Every single European monarch today, as a descendant of Queen Victoria, is also descended from Margarida de Castro, and thus from Affonso III's possibly-African mistress. As to whether, say, the Danes have "admitted" their minuscule African ancestry, I have no idea - but the whole discussion is absurd. A study of the genealogy of these people is most remarkable because of how *little* of their ancestry is non-European. These people were incredibly inbred, and very little of their ancestry can be traced to anywhere but Europe. As to "black" and "white" being determined by society rather than lineage, sure. But there are other theories on this than the "one drop" theory. The Portuguese certainly never subscribed to this theory, nor did the Spanish - they had elaborate varieties of racial difference devised. I'm not certain about northern European societies, but I do know that a German with as little Jewish blood as Charlotte had "African" blood would have faced no trouble at all from the Nazis. Finally, again, the fact that Elizabeeth acknowledged African ancestry has little to do with Charlotte - she has the same African ancestry through George III, and through Christian IX of Denmark, and probably from various other sources as well. john k 21:07, 26 Apr 2005 (UTC)

The reason I mentioned One Drop Theory was because of your example of a black Danish King. You wouldn't have mentioned it if you didn't apply the theory in order to arrive to the label "black". Again, I have never said Charlotte was black, nor did I say Hitler was part-Jewish. I used him as an example because Hitler didn't know the identity of his paternal grandfather and as such, under his own racial policies, he could not have established himself as a German. --Kvasir 22:17, 26 Apr 2005 (UTC)
His paternal grandfather was Johann Hiedler - this was legally recognized. At any rate, the people whose work you are advancing have referred to Charlotte as a "black" queen of England, that is all I was saying. 23:00, 26 Apr 2005 (UTC)

And who's up in arms over anything? No historians or, god forbid, policy-makers, who, so far as I am aware, have little interest in the ancestry of Charlotte of Mecklenburg-Strelitz, have disputed the fact that you can trace descents of Charlotte to the possibly-African mistress of Affonso III of Portugal. What is under dispute is whether this fact is of any significance at all, and whether there is any reason to attach this fact to especially to Charlotte, when it could just as easily be attached to George III, or Christian IX of Denmark, or Karl August of Weimar, or whoever. john k 21:09, 26 Apr 2005 (UTC)

I'll add that this particular line of ancestry was not exposed by original research into Charlotte, so far as I am aware. The genealogy of Europe's royalty has been very extensively researched, and almost certainly this particular line of descent was fully known by genealogists long before anyone became interested in whether or not Charlotte was black. And, once again, if the ancestry is, in fact, non-black North African (as is overwhelmingly likely), this is all the less interesting - North Africans were not normally considered racially distinct from Europeans - certainly not in the Iberian peninsula, which was full of Moors and Jews. All of the southern European royalties almost certainly have some small amount of Jewish/Moorish descent through Ferdinand of Aragon. john k 21:13, 26 Apr 2005 (UTC)

John, NOBODY IS SAYING SHE WAS BLACK. Read that carefully again, okay? NOBODY ... IS ... SAYING ... QUEEN ... CHARLOTTE ... WAS ... BLACK. I actually wrote about this research for the New York Times and spent a lot of time working on its verification from a wide number of scholars, not one of whom was skeptical. You don't have the information in front of you, all the scholar's research, just parts of it online, so why are you so inclined to dismiss it out of hand? However ... A, it is fact that her ancestry has become of interest to scholars of the African diaspora in recent years. B, those studies have been given large play in the media, at least in America. C, her supposedly "negroid" features were commented on during her life. D even one of her leading biographers noted this. Why is this a problem for you? It's just background, deep background. You seem like you're taking this so personally. The paragraph has been written in a very tightly focussed, very careful use of language, leaving the research open to interpretation. Leave it alone. Also, as you will note, your own initial argument of "garbage" re the research has been tempered over the last few days to the point of you're saying that maybe it should be noted. Mowens35 21:00, 26 Apr 2005 (UTC)

I don't necessarily have a problem with it being mentioned. I have a problem with it being mentioned in a misleading manner, as, for instance, the Frontline article does. It has probably been mentioned enough as to deserve a place in the article. But there's no reason to treat it as though it is a particularly sensible claim. Margarida de Castro was not "apparently mixed-race," (and she certainly was not a member of "the black branch of the Portuguese royal house" as Frontline says) so far as I am aware - she was a Portuguese noblewoman who had a negligible amount of (apparently Moorish) African blood dating back a couple of centuries. The argument that Charlotte's descent from her has any connection to the claim that she looked "mulatto" is utterly specious - whether or not Charlotte looked mulatto, it is incredibly unlikely that this has anything to do with her very distant descent from a thirteenth century moorish woman, which she shared with numerous people who nobody has every said looked like mulattoes. Were even her brothers, sisters, or parents ever described as looking mulatto? Has anybody even bothered to see? My basic problem with this is that it's always presented as though this (genuine) genealogical descent actually bears some relation to the fact that people said Charlotte looked mulatto. It simply does not - there is absolutely no connection between these two (true) facts, and the main reason that people have juxtaposed these two things is to suggest that the contemporary observations have been proven correct by "scientific" research into Charlotte's genealogy. john k 21:26, 26 Apr 2005 (UTC)

John, it's mentioned, it's mentioned properly in the article, with pros and cons. We can do nothing more. On the subject of Charlotte's siblings, I do not know, but if you're interested, I could scan a circa 1875 photograph of a family distantly connected to me. The husband was mixed race: white, Indian, and black, but looked rather like Abraham Lincoln. His wife was entirely white, pure Blythe Danner in appearance, though more careworn. Their grown sons all look largely black. Two of the daughters do as well, while two other daughters are very white in appearance. All the women married mixed-race men. The two grandchildren pictured -- who are cocktail of Indian, white, and black, in varying complexities -- look like the Sherwin-Williams Dutch boy. They both slipped into white society when grown and successfully so. Whether their own children and grandchildren remained blonde types is unknown. Mowens35 21:37, 26 Apr 2005 (UTC)

Well, I certainly wasn't denying that this kind of thing can happen. i was just noting that nobody seems to say anything one way or the other about her close relatives, and that the whole thing seems to be cherry-picking. It's also rather anglocentric - it's not as though Charlotte came out of a wild area where we know nothing of her other family members, and yet there seems to be no interest in whether she looked like a typical member of the family, or not. At any rate, I have no particular problem with some mention of this. I do think that it's pretty disproportionate at this point. john k 23:00, 26 Apr 2005 (UTC)

Of course it's anglocentric. All we've got to go on are English observers of her. Her siblings, on the other hand, we know nothing about, largely, because they didn't become queens or rulers of one of the most important countries on the planet. And if they were written about, we'd be hardpressed to find to books on a local library shelf to back it up, unless some Wiki's got borrowing privileges at the Mecklenburg County Library in Germany. Or somebody's willing to track down paintings of all her family (go right ahead if you'd like and we can change the article accordingly). As for disproportionate, that is why I moved the block of text to the end of the entry. It broke the rhythm and took up too much space at the beginning of the article. I think it is appropriately placed. Mowens35 23:09, 26 Apr 2005 (UTC)

If someone were serious about researching Charlotte's ancestry, it is certainly not difficult to find out about her family. Obviously, it is not as easy as finding stuff about Charlotte, but one would guess that there are records in Strelitz and elsewhere about the family, and that a diligent researcher could discover quite a lot. Portraits almost certainly exist, as well - her brother was, after all, a major prince of the Holy Roman Empire. This is not an issue with contributors to wiki, but an issue about the seriousness of these people (not on wiki) who are supposedly researching Charlotte's ancestry. I agree that the bit is better placed at the bottom. john k 23:50, 26 Apr 2005 (UTC)

It is apparent that racist sentiments seem to find there way into the simplist of arguments.. Queen charlotte wasnt the only African queen in british history. There have been at least two others. Her ancestry goes back to portugal(pre dark age spain), which before the roman empire conquered it was inhabited by African Moslems with the interest of trade and education. whether or not she was a "black" is unknown. but a poem was written for her coronation that higly suggest her ethnicity:
Descended from the warlike Vandal race,
She still preserves that title in her face.
Tho' shone their triumphs o'er Numidia's plain,
And and Alusian fields their name retain;
They but subdued the southern world with arms,
She conquers still with her triumphant charms,
O! born for rule, - to whose victorious brow
The greatest monarch of the north must bow.
This may be referring to African Moslems or maybe even further back to her african warrior roots(haha). speculation encourages research and investigation thus furthering the learningn experience. Alot of thigns have been covered up by those who want to "hide" the truth about our world. All life orginates from Africa. There have been three "black" popes, three "black" roman emperors, "black" saints, knights, peers, etc. stan 10:17, 13 Sept 2005

Or, it may be referring to the Vandals, a Germanic tribe which was believed at the time to have originated from the Mecklenburg area, and to have later conquered Africa. Now, it's possible that the poet was playing around with the fact that, by many accounts, Charlotte looked kind of black, and were making a joke based on the Vandal connection to north Africa. But the Vandals did not look Black. They were a German tribe, and presumably were blond and fair. So there is no reason to assume that this is what is meant at all, unless one is already looking for it. And, I will repeat - the Vandals were believed in the 18th century to have originated in northern Germany, around the Baltic Sea (i.e., exactly where Charlotte was from). I would add that African Muslims did not live in Portugal before the Roman Empire, what with Islam not existing until after the fall of the Roman Empire. Beyond this, I have addressed all these points before. I have strong objections to pretending that anybody who is a native of Africa, and not of European descent, is "black." This simply is not true of north Africans, who, whatever the origins of Homo sapiens in Africa, are more closely related to Europeans than they are to Subsaharan Africans. So there have been no black popes, and no black Roman emperors. There have of course been black saints, knights, and peers (Valerie Amos is the last, for instance). I have even stronger objections to the idea that any kind of Black origins have been demonstrated for Charlotte that are beyond those held by every other European of her time. A couple of descents from a single 13th century woman who was probably a Moor is not a demonstration that somebody is Black. If this is what makes Charlotte black, then every European monarch is black. Presumably, every white person in the world is black by this standard. The basic fact is that the only thing the "Queen Charlotte was black" advocates have dug up is a) a tenuous descent from someone who was probably a north African, which she shares with the rest of royal Europe; and b) some vague resemblances found in her portrait to supposedly Black features, and a few contemporary writings which are claimed dubiously to allude to her supposed blackness. This is simply not good enough in the fact of a well known family tree which deos not include any black people in it. john k 19:28, 13 September 2005 (UTC)

To Kemet: the possibility that Charlotte was descended from an 18th century mulatto is not sufficient to claim that she was. Possibility does not equate with probability, and the claim that she had black ancestry regards a 13th century ancestor, as has been repeated throughout this section. Telling people to "get over it" doesn't encourage them to do so, and an assumption, as you put it, is exactly what your hypothesis is (i.e. not a proven fact). If Charlotte had a black ancestor, then she had a black ancestor (and she did, as all humans on the planet do), and this doesn't change the fact that Charlotte was white, despite the alleged "African" who was probably a Moor (i.e. not black), if she really is the ancestor of Charlotte. The denial that Charlotte was "black" is not based on the notion that Europeans are "purely white", but on the assertion that the claim that she was descended from a 13th century "African" mistress is dubious, and that even if this notion were true, and that this woman was "black", that Charlotte still couldn't be called "black" because none of her recent ancestors or close relatives were. Why is the challenge to nonsensical Afrocentric history a shame? The true shame is that some black scholars must disparage Europe and it's traditions with accusations of universal racism. To "Stan", no pope or Roman emperor was black, as this would be quite significant, and not easily missed or forgotten or "covered up" (the last possibility being strongly discredited by the fact that the partial black ancestry of such notables as Alexander Pushkin, George Bridgetower and Joseph Boulogne have not been "covered up"). There were African popes and emperors, but they were non-black Africans from the north. Mediterranean Africans are racially and ethnically identical to West Asians and Europeans. The history of black people in Europe is minor, and is exaggerated by some scholars. --Jugbo
Clearly, you missed my point, and I will not paraphrase what is patently clear in what I wrote. Some advice: READ before you respond, and don't extrapolate authors' opinions from your faulty understandings. Re-read what preceded my entry, and what I wrote. Kemet
I see on the history page that my above formerly insensitive post has caused a stir, and I apologize for the lapse in maturity (especially to Kemet for the name-calling). However, do not ever delete another person's words. If they are rude and inflammatory, then address the issue by posting yourself, rather than deleting it and pretending it never happened (or go directly to the offender). To erase another's comments is to lie about what has happened, even though it is recorded on the history page. Suppression of free speech is worse than any bias. --Jugbo 18:55, 27 December 2005 (UTC)


Hi, I've rewritten the lead section of this article to include other biographical attributes. I moved the section at the top that talks at length about her race (which is totally new material to me, but very interesting nonetheless) just to maintain proportion. It would also be great if we could get some sources on how important this was during her life, such as those caricatures or any literary references, so we can reevaluate this if need be. Was she aware of this ancestry? Stuff like that. --Marysunshine 21:56, 21 April 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Royal descent

After a long recent discussion of Charlotte's geneology I realized that no notable ancestor had been listed but a 15th century relative of uncertain connection. A woman of no notable descent marrying into the House of Stuart? I searched for a Royal ancestry of her own and found Gustav Vasa to serve as her closest Royal relative. I added a short paragraph explaining the descent.

The addition has been reverted within a number of hours with the apparent concern that it is "irrelevant"? Along with a curious comment on an "African Queen" that I haven't been able to place. So why is listing the notable lineage of a member of Royalty, a Queen consort and ancestor of several monarchs irrelevant?

And as for listing a similar paragraph prooving descent from Gustav Vasa for all of his descentants. You seem to exaggerate. When attempting to add geneological information to an article , I am merely trying to connect the person to the closest ancestor which has his/her own article in the Wikipedia. Further descent can thus be traced by reading on said ancestor. I don't think this to so "irrelevant" or an attempt to turn Wikipedia to a geneological archive listing people with nothing to comment them but their descent.

The only other way to list such information would be to create articles on her parents. Who I doubt would ever grow beyond stub status even if created. Any other ideas on how to inform on geneology other than singling out a 13th century concumbine instead of her relatively close connections. User:Dimadick

Dimadick, I removed the Vasa descent because it was patently bizarre. I suggest that you instead do some research and beef up the info re her parents and why she was chosen to be G3's bride (they were cousins after all, so the choice is not THAT surprising). That's much more interesting and relevant that the Vasa descent, which I'm certain isn't why she was asked to marry the man she did. Mowens35 23:27, 27 Apr 2005 (UTC)

Dimadick, do you mean House of Stuart, or rather House of Hanover?? conventionally we do not say that G3 belonged to house of Stuart, though he descended from it. 217.140.193.123 07:49, 26 Jun 2005 (UTC)

And, please do not see the ancestry so purely black or white. Charlotte certainly had lots of notable ancestors, close. such as reigning princes of principalities, duchies etc. It was only the lack of any king as close ancestor that makes her relatively non-royal. She certainly was not the close descendant of any commoner, nor of any "lower noble". 217.140.193.123 07:49, 26 Jun 2005 (UTC)


Hi,

The article goes on about Charlotte's relatively non-royal ancestory, and says that she was more of the aristocracy than of royalty. This is not strictly correct, because although her father and his forbears held the title of "Duke" of Mecklienburg-Strelitz, they were RULING dukes, not dukes of the peerage as in the UK. They were thus royalty and not merely of the nobility. The dukes of Mecklienburg-Strelitz were of course nominally under the suzereinty of the Holy Roman Emperor until 1806, but then so was every other German royal, including the Elector of Hanover, who incidentally was Charlotte's husband.

The ancestry of a Royal Consort, excepting her recent ancestry affecting the factors causing her marriage, is not relevant or significant. Her far-distant royal, noble, and common ancestors will not affect the course of history and so are a matter of idle curiosity only. An exception is if her far-distant ancestry results, in her lifetime or perhaps centuries later, in the merging of realms and titles (by the operation of chance elevating cadet lines to senior lines) into the Crown she married. And the only portions of the ancestry of the KING whom she marries that matter are portions that cause him to BE King and portions that might reshape his desdendants' realms. Should this page on Charlotte document who she WAS and how she LIVED or should it try compute a pedigree-based ranking for her?64.131.188.104 (talk) 10:38, 7 June 2008 (UTC)Christopher L. Simpson

Every consort of a British monarch between George I (1714-27) and Victoria (1837-1901) came from a similar family, and the record in the 1900's has been downhill from there. Queen Mary plumbed the depths; her father was the product of a morganatic marriage.

Why is Queen Ma(r)y to be held responsible for the circumstances surrounding her parents' marriage? That was her fault?64.131.188.104 (talk) 09:59, 7 June 2008 (UTC)Christopher L. Simpson

I suggest John reads this article since he needs the knowledge: http://www.africawithin.com/moors/moors_and_arabs.htm July 9, 2006

[edit] QUEEN CHARLOTTE/ A SISTA?

The attitudes expressed on this page are discraceful, the pure viseral reaction that queen charlotte is black is surprising in our modern age,I an taste the hate through the page.it is simple enough to do a dna test on charlottes remains if its really that important,if princess charlotte embraces her african heritage, then that should certainly conidered very forward thinking and admirable, (that in fact is the same definition used by the U.S. census beauru uses today) for a woman of that age,many people who u see today and think are "pure black" are not ,i myself have relatives who by appearance alone would definitly be considered caucasian. the "white race is nothing but a variation of the "black race" and this is a fact.whats the big deal what r u afraid of? there are many blacks in my family who look like charlotte,with african and caucasian features it dosent mean anything it dosent mean shes impure,or less royal just because queen victoria was part black,thats a rediculous way of thinking, as for the berbers not being black ,they most certainly were mostly of black african hertage 80% just like all africans,including egyptians,the fact remains that i look more middle eastern than anyone from scandanavia,(when i was deployed in iraq i had more iraqis ask if i was iraqi or kuwati than anything else), always have always will,amd i am black,but like i said if its that important do a dna test on charlotte,lets see if she a sister.

Come on, no one is expressing hatred, really! People are just irritated by what is so clearly an abuse of the known facts. But let me ask you a question - if you discovered that 400 or 500 years before your birth you had a Chinese anscestor would that make you Chinese and would you therefore "embrace your Chinese heritage". Let's keep some perspective please! - JL Jan 2008

There's no proof that *she* even knew this, and the link seems tenuous at best. Sure, keep it on the page, but perhaps omit it from the lead paragraph.


Ignoring and arguing the fact that Queen Charlotte had partial black ancestry is no different then what many westerners have covered up for years. The facts are that black Africans were royal kings and queens before being kidnapped into slavery and westerners made it a point to cover up their heritage and traditions by cutting off the noses of many royal sculptors in places like Egypt, stealing and destroying African artifacts (including books) and stripping us from our religions (forcing us in Christianity) because they did not understand black African beliefs and therefore felt intimidated. I find it disgraceful and disrespectful that many of you would rather agree that Queen Charlotte is any other race (like German, Spanish, etc) then partial black. As if black, is some time of disease of less worth. from JADE in July of 2006

No one is suggesting blackness is an "impurity" - this is inflammatory talk. People are just trying to get as close to the facts as possible - and the fact is this: Any talk of the Queen having a N African ancestor going back centuries before her birth is pure speculation. To pretend otherwise is absurd. We can consider the matter, and perhaps it's true, but to assert she is a "black Briton" on the basis of pure speculation about a long, long distant ancestor is clearly motivated by sheer political correctness. This must obvious to anyone surely?? —Preceding unsigned comment added by 82.20.32.201 (talk) 16:54, 1 January 2008 (UTC)

[edit] African

The assumption that African equals black is nonsense.Also,having a darker complexion than Northern Europeans (such as the Germans)equates being Black? "mulatto like features",even though Queen Charlotte was not a mulatto in any sense (half black half white) I wonder if [Victoria Adams] of The Spice girls is now to be considered "Black" or how about the English super model[Alice Dodd?]

Answer: Well, complexion is not the sole factor that is being considered here. Queen Charlotte appears to be quite fair skinned, on the contrary. Additional physical characteristics, such as hair texture, lip formation and the level of prognathism in an individual come heavily into play in determining whether he/she truly has a "mulatto-like" appearance. Also of note, it is very common nowadays to see white women sporting darker complexions. For whatever reason, fake tans and the like are in. Keep that in mind when referring to modern celebrity figures, such as Dodd or Adams. With that stated, I wouldn't put much stock into a few scant descriptions pertaining to Queen Charlotte's infamous face. Mere words alone don't hold a lot of weight. Only several months back Cruise-haters ludicrously described his newborn daugher Suri as the offspring of an Asian man due to her slightly almond shaped eyes. People will always have their unique observations. In short, obtaining the proper evidence (e.g., DNA samples) regarding the late Queen Charlotte's genealogy is the only way to unlock this mystery in question. Otherwise, it's just speculation.

The Moors: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Moors

The Berber Moors who did the conquest of Iberia (Portugal): http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Berber

Another links with historical paintings of African Moors: The racial fuss surrounding the "Moors" in medieval Europe http://www.angelfire.com/md/8/moors.html


And lastly:

Genealogist,Leo van de Pas

http://archiver.rootsweb.com/th/read/GEN-MEDIEVAL/2004-09/1096208509

His credentials wil be found on his home page: http://www.genealogics.org/index.php


Get over it she was a Black woman. [Nita 2:51am June 23, 2006]

Why don't you "Queen-Charlotte-was-black" crowd formulate an intelligent argument rather than simply ranting and making assertions? You know she wasn't black, you just wish she had been, because you can't deal with history the way it happened so you attempt to mitigate your resentments and anxieties with such absurd claims. Why don't you people "get over it"? --Jugbo 00:56, 30 July 2006 (UTC)
because she WAS of african descent, see [2]. --Snottily 23:08, 19 August 2007 (UTC)

Oh dear, another assertion! Some people really have contempt for truth and I find that disturbing. Even in Stalin's USSR they would have been embarrassed to come out with this one. The truth is we don't know if she had a N African anscestor (going back centuries!) or not - but let's assume for a moment she did. Does that make her black??? Does a pint of beer with one drop of whisky in it become whisky????? By the same token a black Briton who has a white anscestor going back centuries must be white! —Preceding unsigned comment added by 82.20.32.201 (talk) 16:42, 1 January 2008 (UTC)

What of Charlotte's contemporaries who constantly remarked about her "Negroid" features? Charlotte had Black African ancestry. That much is clear. Whether one considers her "Black" or not is another issue; that is a fairly subjective designation. The article doesn't ever state that she was Black, although it is quite clear that had she lived in the American South in the 1950's, she would have been riding in the back of the bus ;). deeceevoice (talk) 11:48, 28 March 2008 (UTC)

I don't know if they constantly remarked or not, I have heard of one or two descriptions of her as appearing "mulatto" but not "negroid". Do you have any references for me to read some of these descriptions? But even if they did remark on this perhaps she just happened to have features that had a passing resemblance to stereotypical "negroid" features like Mick Jagger or Victoria Beckham. A passing resemblance to something doesn't necessarily mean anything and is certainly not enough to assert "Charlotte had Black African ancestry. That much is clear". More importantly if you read carefully the above section, no one (who has seriously researched her ancestry) is even suggesting she had a negroid ancester, the speculated "black" ancestor was a North African. As for the subjective designation - well if anyone is seriously going to call someone "black" based on one literally centuries distant ancestor (which she may well have had) the word becomes meaningless. On that basis - if it's true that all people on the planet have black ancestry - we might as well all start calling ourselves black and be done with it! —Preceding unsigned comment added by 195.92.40.49 (talk) 20:04, 28 March 2008 (UTC)

[edit] Copyright Issues

It appears to me that much of the paragraph discussing Charlotte's Moorish ancestry is copied almost word-for-word from the Frontline article. Note especially the passage around the words "quadroons" and "octoroons". I haven't edited it but surely this passage is in violation of copyright. Mangoe 18:53, 11 May 2006 (UTC)

Do you have a link to the Frontline article? I can't seem to find it.

I'm in favour of removing that entire paragraph, personally -- it doesn't add much to the page.--Marysunshine 22:25, 11 May 2006 (UTC)

Removed copyvio content from PBS Frontline.--Marysunshine 21:15, 12 May 2006 (UTC)

I've added citations as requested in the article regarding her ancestry. BCorr|Брайен 21:44, 4 September 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Mulatto Features?

what exactly are they, and which ones did Queen Charlotte supposedly have? [3] [4] Colorfulharp233 18:31, 10 July 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Death

Why does her reign as queen consort extend past the date of her death? AdamBiswanger1 20:03, 21 July 2006 (UTC)

...was the queen consort of George III of the United Kingdom (1738-1820).
The date refers to the reign of George III. --Kvasir 01:40, 22 July 2006 (UTC)
In fact, it does not. It refers to the lifespan of George III. He only became king in 1760. john k 02:07, 22 July 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Gannibal connection

On the subject of Queen Charlotte's supposed "blackness," the claim currently in the article that her mother's biological father may have been Abram Petrovich Gannibal seems rather more plausible than the previous argument that some 13th century ancestor is the cause.

That being said, is there any actual evidence of this? Elizabeth Albertine, Charlotte's mother, was born in August 1713, when Gannibal was 17. Would it have been physically possible for Gannibal to impregnate Elizabeth Albertine's mother in December 1712, or thereabouts? Is there any actual evidence that they were lovers? Or is this some kind of lame post hoc justification for the "Charlotte was black" speculation? I want a real source for this - as far as I can tell, the only mention of Gannibal on the web as a possible ancestor of Charlotte derives from wikipedia. john k 18:30, 30 September 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Charlotte of Mecklenburg-Strelitz's ancestry

Through Princess Elizabeth Albertine of Saxe-Hildburghausen, Charlotte of Mecklenburg-Strelitz is presented as having a distant Black ancestor, because Elizabeth Albertine was descendant of Margarita de Castro e Sousa, and Margarita is presented as being descendant of King Afonso III of Portugal and an African mistress of him (by that meaning Black). This would not be a problem but for the fact that it is not true! Afonso III of Portugal had descendants from Matilda II of Boulogne, Beatrix of Castile, Maria Peres de Enxara and Madragana (Mor Afonso), as well as up to 7 children other from unknown mother(s). The one that is repeatedly refered to as African is Madragana ( called Maior Afonso or Mor Afonso after bearing two children to the King: Martim Afonso Chichorro and Urraca Afonso). She was not African. People abusively assume that because she was the daughther of the Governor of the city of Faro (in the Algarve), then a region dominated by the Moors (who were North Africans, which is quite different from saying just Africans...). The fact is that Afonso III of Portugal captured the city and its governor Aloandro Ben Bekar, not a Moor, but a Mozarab (Iberian Christians living under Muslim domination), gave up his daugther to the King. You might find suprising that a Moorish town (even if the majority of the population was Christian, the political power was Moorish) was governed by a Christian, but you might do well to remember that the Moors always had Christian or Jews in high level positions, and Aloandro Ben Bekar (or Aloandro Ben Bakr) was from an old lineage of Mozarabs who had even taken control of the city away from the Muslims for certain periods in the past (people like Yahia Ben Bakr and Bakr Ben Yahia). So, they were definitively not Africans, not even Moors, but native Iberians! So, Elizabeth Albertine, Princess of Saxe-Hildburghausen, is not descendent of an African woman. Mind you, it would not be a problem if she was! Be she wasn't. If you want to know the direct line of descent here goes:

  • King Afonso III of Portugal and Madragana (Mor Afonso) (daugther of Aloandro Ben Bekar) had...
  • Martim Afonso Chichorro, who, with Inês Lourenço de Valadares, had...
  • Martim Afonso Chichorro II, who, with Aldonça Anes de Briteiros, had...
  • Vasco Martins de Sousa Chichorro, who, with Estefânia Garcia, had...
  • Afonso Vasques de Sousa, who, with Leonor Lopes de Sousa, had...
  • Mécia de Sousa, who, with Fernando de Castro, had...
  • Margarita de Castro e Sousa, who, with Jean de Neufchâtel, had...
  • Fernando de Neufchatel, who, with Claudia de Vergy, had...
  • Antonieta de Neufchatel, who, with Filipe, Count of Salm and Wildrheingrave of Dhaun, had...
  • Margarida, Wild-rheingravina of Dhaun, who, with Eberard XII, Count of Erbach , had...
  • Georg III, Count of Erbach, who, with Maria de Barby e Mühlingen, had...
  • Jorge Alberto I, Count of Erbach, who, with Isabel Doroteia, Countess of Hohenlohe-Schillingsfürst , had...
  • Jorge Luis I, Count of Erbach, who, with Amália Catarina, Countess of Waldeck-Eisenberg , had...
  • Sophia Albertine, Countess of Erbach, who, with Ernst Frederick I, Duke of Saxe-Hildburghausen, had...
  • Elizabeth Albertine, Princess of Saxe-Hildburghausen.

Et voilá! If you want to find out more about Elizabeth Albertine ancestors (and there's much more data available!) check her out in this Portuguese genealogical site. Best regards. The Ogre 18:55, 12 December 2006 (UTC)

Thank you for providing some much-needed factual information to this discussion, and to the article. However, the point you make above, "Afonso III of Portugal captured the city and its governor Aloandro Ben Bekar, not a Moor, but a Mozarab (Iberian Christians living under Muslim domination), gave up his daugther to the King" is not sourced in the article. Moreover, you deleted someone else's citation, inserted to support a contrary assertion, on the grounds that it is POV. In fact, although sources have to be reliable, they do not necessarily have to be neutral, so long as their POV is not concealed -- and the relevant citation is openly Afrocentric in focus. Therefore, I am re-inserting that citation, and adding a request for citation to your "Mozareb" comment. I am not doing so because I disagree with your conclusion (I do not believe that the evidence presented so far supports Charlotte's alleged black ancestry through Madragana), but because it simply isn't fair to delete someone else's cite for content with which you disagree, especially while adding an unreferenced allegation of your own. I urge you to add a reliable cite for the Mozareb information (preferably in English), so that this article can be stabilized with sourced, hopefully, accurate information. Lethiere 04:49, 15 February 2007 (UTC)
It is now sourced. The Ogre (talk) 20:59, 5 February 2008 (UTC)

[edit] Queen Charlotte: Sephardic Jewish Ancestry?

The above info presents the idea that she came partially from Portuguese royalty. Therefore, what about the possibility of her having Sephardic Jewish ancestry? There were MANY Sephardic Jews in Spain/Portugal (hundreds of thousands of them), but many of them were driven out of the Spanish and Portuguese Inquisitions (those that did not want to be expelled would face the death penalty, or they could convert to Catholicism and become "New Christians," or "marranos"/"conversos"). However, before they were expelled from both countries (from Spain in 1492; Portugal in 1497) these Jews often intermarried to some extent with the royalty and upper-classes of those countries, and thus lingered on in those countries a bit even after the vast bulk had been expelled. So possibly Charlotte of Mecklenburg-Strelitz had some Sephardic Jewish ancestry since she supposedly had some roots in Portuguese royalty? Please note that these Sephardic Jews are different from the Eastern European Ashkenazi Jews. Perhaps her Sephardic Jewish ancestry is what gave her the "mulatto look" with so-called "negroid features" that she was variously described as having. --172.144.52.244 06:05, 31 March 2007 (UTC)

Yes, Aloandro Ben Bekar was partially of Sephardic origin, so Charlotte of Mecklenburg-Strelitz also had that in her genealogy. Notice however that, contrary to what you said, it was not often that jews "intermarried to some extent with the royalty and upper-classes of those countries, and thus some lingered on in those countries a bit even after the vast bulk had been expelled (many remain even today)". And her Sephardic ancestry was very minute and distant - more then 20 generations removed. That would not provoke any impact at all. Furthermore, since when Sepahrdic Jews have a "mulatto look" with so-called "negroid features"? The Ogre 14:03, 31 March 2007 (UTC)
I removed the ridiculous and completely unsourced statement that all Sephardic Jews, Moors, Arabs, Berbers, etc., were white, or Caucasian. All of these groups contain ethnicities within them who are considered Black African, or who have significant/substantial Black African admixture. I also removed the text that linked "Vandal" to the article on the Vandals, because it is quite clear from the context of the article by Valdes y Codom that he's using it to bolster his argument that Charlotte had Black ancestry. I confess am not familiar with the use of "Vandal" to refer to anything different from the commonly understood meaning -- but, clearly, there must be another.
So, removed is:
Valdes y Cocom goes on to state that, along with descriptions of a "mulatto face", the Queen's features had also been described as Vandalic, as exemplified by a poem written for the occasion of her marriage:
"Descended from the warlike Vandal race,
She still preserves that title in her face."[1] deeceevoice (talk) 11:45, 28 March 2008 (UTC)
deeceevoice (talk) 11:45, 28 March 2008 (UTC)

[edit] If Charlotte IS African then why aren't her cousins, descendants, and more of her ancestors African?

For my question, it is not necessary to know whether it is true or false that Charlotte had African ancestry, a biracial appearance, or whether if she did have African ancestors they would be called "Black" or "South-of-Saharan" ancestors by some people. If being descended from this pivotal ancestor makes Charlotte to a certain degree African, then isn't it true that everyone else who was the same number of generations down from that pivotal ancestor must have been at least as or more African as Charlotte? Wouldn't one (or both) of her parents have to be at least as African as she was (noting that if one parent wasn't African at all the other parent would have to be TWICE as African as Charlotte)? Doesn't it follow that all of her children had to be AT LEAST half as African as she was? How can Charlotte be x% African and her granddaughter Victoria NOT be at least (x/4)% African? So why does this question (whether it be true or false) of African ancestry (not ancient African ancestry that I believe everyone must have, but recent medieval-time African ancestry) pertain ONLY to Charlotte and not to all of her ancestors in the line between her and the pivotal African ancestor, nor to her cousins from that ancestor, nor to her descendants? I mean, why is this question FOCUSED onto Charlotte and not onto any of her other relatives?64.131.188.104 (talk) 09:59, 7 June 2008 (UTC)Christopher L. Simpson

[edit] Ancestor Counts

"While her 58 closest ancestors (rather than 62, four of her great-great-great-grandparents are counted twice) ..." This sentence does not make sense. One has 32 great-great-great grandparents, not 62, and if the writer really meant great-great-great-great grandparents, there would be 64. Allowing for four duplicates, there are still two left unaccounted. Mapjc 06:25, 25 October 2007 (UTC)

Two parents plus four grandparents plus eight great-grandparents plus sixteen great-great-grandparents plus thirty-two great-great-great-grandparents comes to the sixty-two closest ancestors. Counting great-great-great-grandparents doesn't account for the closest ancestors, everyone before them must be counted as well. Charles 11:33, 25 October 2007 (UTC)

An easy way to compute it (rather than add) is to note that such a number (including the person) would be of the form "11111..." in binary notation. Such a number is always one less than a power of two. 64 - 1 is 63. Since the person in question is not considered their own ancestor, that reduces it from 63 to 62.64.131.188.104 (talk) 08:17, 7 June 2008 (UTC)Christopher L. Simpson

[edit] Portrait

Mulato features??

Several Portrait of Charlotte of Mecklenburg-Strelitz
Several Portrait of Charlotte of Mecklenburg-Strelitz

Where...? The Ogre (talk) 22:55, 5 February 2008 (UTC)

There are other portraits of Charlotte. I've included two on my website Here: www.riclanders.com

There's also a strange cartoon that shows her and her husband and about five other woman. Her features are draw clearly as a black woman's while everyone else is clearly white.

I find the cartoon astonishing and would include it here if there were instuctions on how to post images somehre.

ricland —Preceding unsigned comment added by Ricland (talk • contribs) 02:18, 5 April 2008 (UTC)

To post images: on the left hand side of the page under the search box there is 'toolbox'. Click on upload file. You will want to choose "It is from somewhere else" and in the licensing dropdown select "Author died more than 100 years ago". Be sure to include as much information as possible about where the image came from. William Avery (talk) 08:51, 5 April 2008 (UTC)

[edit] Palace denial

There's a scan of a letter from Buckingham Palace here: http://onedroprule.org/about1568.html showing that they deny issuing an "apologia" defending the Queen's position as Head of the Commonwealth. DrKiernan (talk) 10:56, 18 April 2008 (UTC)