Talk:Charles Peirce

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[edit] Archives

[edit] Article Length

This article is not necessarily "too long". Just that it should be shorter. There is some good in this article, and some good in the additions by readers, but, all-in-all, not much on Peirce's metaphysics, epistemology, or his view of theology. Here is a pretty good quote from Charles Sanders Peirce himself, on "belief": "The essence of beilef is the establishment of a habit, and different beliefs are distinguished by the different modes of action to which they give rise. If beliefs do not differ in this respect, if they appease the same doubt by producing the same rule of action, then no mere differences in the manner of consciousness of them can make them different beliefs, any more than playing a tune in different keys is playing different tunes. Imaginary distinctions are often drawn between beliefs which differ only in their mode of expression ..." [C.S. Peirce, "How to Make Our Ideas Clear", From: Popular Science Monthly, Volume 12, (January, 1878), pp. 286-302; quoted on page 144, in: White, Morton. (1955). The Mentor Philosophers. The Age of Analysis: Twentieth Century Philosophers. New York: Mentor Books, New American Library; q.v. ].Scott R. Harrington (talk) 05:28, 13 June 2008 (UTC)

This article is huge. Would it not be possible to break out, say, Pierce's more strictly mathematical contributions? Inter-article links are so effective that IMHO little would be lost in those instances where someone had to switch back and forth a few times because of connections between the mathematics and the philosophy. DCDuring 21:11, 6 September 2007 (UTC)

It's a little long, but see data above about comparable thinkers. It has already been through several spin-off phases, and may be due for another. His maths and logic are tightly integrated, though, so care is needed. Saralee Arrowood Viognier 21:36, 6 September 2007 (UTC)

If I didn't think care was needed, I might have taken a run at it myself on the better-to-ask-forgiveness-than-permission principle (which seems especially appropriate with easy undo). I just don't know what the cleavage surfaces are in the edifice. There is nothing that says article length should be proportionate to influence. I am not interested in limiting the total size of Peirce-related articles, just the maximum size of the articles in the Peirce group of articles -- and anything else I might want to browse or edit. DCDuring 00:02, 7 September 2007 (UTC)

Odd as it may seem, many people care more about doing the best job possible with a complex and difficult subject than they do about such incidentals as the byte count. Any one who reviews the history of the article over the last couple of years can see that the recurrent episodes of "shoot-first-ask-questions-later" have not done it much justice, not to mention all the human effort that got wasted bye the bye. Now, these concerns have been noted before by all hands on deck and I'm sure that most folks can see a lot of different areas for improvement — some of that work might squeeze out some bytes, but other types of work invariably tend to add more bytes. There are cycles to it, if you're in for the long haul. At any rate, since the article has been frozen with no progress whatever for many moons, I don't see much of a rush about it. I'm sure that those who are familiar with the subject are just itching to get back to work on it. Francisca Wartenberg 01:10, 7 September 2007 (UTC)

It is the definition of "best job" that is at issue -- to whatever limited extent we actually disagree in emphasis. I am counting on high-quality content. Many other articles I look at on WP are terrible; this one is very good, if a little dense for the likely audience -- and to get a FA rating. I just thought that we could also make users have a good experience in reading it and editors have a less tedious time editing it. DCDuring 02:05, 7 September 2007 (UTC)

The current state of the article is due to several factors, both benign and adverse. The more positive influences are due to the fact that several editors with several decades of combined experience in Peirce studies from different angles of approach were once collaborating on the article. Let's pass over the negative for now. All of the desirabilities that you mention have been discussed and addressed time and again, but it's an ongoing process, and the more time that folks spend repeating the obvious on the discussion page the less time they have to do the work required. There's a comment in one of the boxes upstairs that mentions how stubby some of the stub sections are — well, that's precisely because many whole sections have already been cleavered off to separate articles, and now it will take a few more bytes to dress up the "Main Article" links. So there are competing forces that push in opposite directions. Voice Of Xperience 03:08, 7 September 2007 (UTC)

If only old hands can play here, then I think it will turn out to be harder to achieve WP readability and intelligiblity goals. Having an overlong (64 headings!!!) talk page that may not reflect the current state of play is a barrier to participation by willing newbies, who probably aren't all vandals. DCDuring 03:37, 7 September 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Semeiotic, Semiotics, Theory of Signs

Note to Tetrast. I see from your user pages that you have been working on these topics. Some of the "missing grapes" vis-a-vis Peirce's theory of signs can be found in a number of other articles that were earlier spun off from this one. Many of these can be found listed in the "Main Article" link in various token sections — "token", ha ha — and others can be found in the "See Also" section, for instance, here:

The general confusion about Peirce's sem(e)iotic(s) versus Saussure's semiology is as bad as it ever was, but no one has had the energy, nerve, or time to try and do much about it yet. So there it is.

The Manual of Style seems to weigh against titles like "Sign (Peirce)", so the spin that a given thinker has on a topic tends to become a subsection of the article on that topic. The articles on Semeiotic and Semiotic Triangle are still very short, and may be natural places to elaborate Peirce's own take on the subject, complete with lots of pretty pictures. Der Mann Ohne Eigenschaften 12:08, 7 September 2007 (UTC)

They might be good places. But I've noticed articles with titles such as Category_(Kant), Physics_(Aristotle), and Celebrity_Jeopardy!_(Saturday_Night_Live), so that format seems allowed. The stuff that I'm preparing on kinds of signs is definitely about Peirce's system in particular, and not even about all of it, but just the "main" stuff. And it's not done yet -- I have to fix up the stuff about symbols. I'm going to take it slow and watch what happens to the main article. (No reversion wars for me, thanks; I'll make myself scarce if that happens.) Anyway, I don't have the free time that I used to have. The Tetrast 18:12, 8 September 2007 (UTC)

If anyone with the wherewithal is really up for a challenge — don't look at me — the page titled "Semiology" is currently just a redirect to Semiotics, but it could be converted into full-fledged article on Saussure's way of treating signs, sorting all that out from its current misplacements in Semiosis, Semiotics, and Sign. Just a thought. Der Mann Ohne Eigenschaften 12:28, 7 September 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Icon, index, symbol

Jossi wanted to briefen the definitions of icon, index, and symbol, that's okay. But the unexplained use of words like "representamen" and "ground" could only confuse the general reader and many a philosopher as well. The section on classes of signs is not the place to suddenly use Peirce's alternate term "representamen" in place of "sign." The ground is an important concept but it needs to be defined.The Tetrast 22:09, 9 September 2007 (UTC) Revised The Tetrast 23:18, 9 September 2007 (UTC)

"(e.g. fork on a sign by the road indicating a rest stop)" -- too complex an example of an icon, because the sign is also very indexical, "indicating" a rest stop as the examples says. The Tetrast 22:28, 9 September 2007 (UTC)

I've finally noticed that the whole subsection explaining sign, object, and interpretant is gone. Well, why keep icon, index, symbol, without object, sign, interpretant? The explanations of icon, index, and symbol depend on the reader's knowing what object, sign, and interpretant are.
Well, I won't get into a reversion war over this. It was just a bad move. When I finish working on the questions about symbols, I'll put the whole kit and kaboodle into a separate article.The Tetrast 22:57, 9 September 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Original research and POV-pushing

Please be aware that banned user Jon Awbrey (talk · contribs · deleted contribs · logs · block user · block log) has an obsessive interest int his article, and has used many ban-evading sockpuppets to attempt to force his original research into this article. See Category:Wikipedia sockpuppets of Jon Awbrey. The majority of arguments on this page appear to come from Awbrey socks. Guy (Help!) 22:02, 10 September 2007 (UTC)

Guy, I've posted quite a few comments on this talk page, but am not Jon Awbrey. Visit my user page, where there are links to my activities elsewhere. I am ultimately contactable personally. If you're referring to my saying "When I finish working on the questions about symbols" -- I don't mean my own research on the nature of symbols, I mean my trying to nail down what Peirce's views were on certain aspects of symbols, basically by finding clear statements by Peirce on the subject. As I've said at my User Page, my actual name is Benjamin Udell, and you can find my posts to peirce-l here about the symbols issue which I had in mind, an issue which I'll probably not pursue too far in the article on Peirce's signs.The Tetrast 22:23, 10 September 2007 (UTC)

I see this morning that the reversion war was going on yesterday. I've repaired some links in the references, which got reverted to their earlier broken forms. Well that's all for me for the time being, now I'll wait till the dispute is resolved, though as far as I can tell, it won't be, so I have little hope for the article's remaining unprotected or for it's being worth it for me to set up a sub-article on Peirce's signs, which would probably end up suffering the same fate. It's most unfortunate. Peirce deserves better. Still, I thank the administrator(s) who decided to give the article a chance for work under reduced protection. The Tetrast 13:14, 11 September 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Categories

The article seems quiet now, and I just couldn't resist trying an edit. The section on Peirce's Categories has needed editing. Maybe it should become a sub-article, but it seems a bit stub-like right now. Another consideration is that Peirce's categories really are totally central to his philosophy. The Tetrast 19:28, 13 September 2007 (UTC)

The asterisked note below the table contains the kind of info which a reader needs right away. The other footnotes which I added, footnotes which appear instead near the end of the article, are for helping people check stuff or pursue curiosity. The Tetrast 19:59, 13 September 2007 (UTC) Revised The Tetrast 20:00, 13 September 2007 (UTC)

Thanks again to the administrators for attempting to keep this article editable. That's part of why I went ahead and did this -- in order to try to do my part to help make it worth it.
Note also that the Theory of Categories section is now shorter than it was when I found it. The Tetrast 20:09, 13 September 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Big edit of sections on signs

"Types of signs" was always a bad section title because "type" is itself a word which Peirce used to label a certain class of signs (type = legisign = famisign). There is a new article Semiotic elements and classes of signs (Peirce) where the subject is discussed in more detail.
I added a section on "Semiotic elements" because the sign-object-interpretant triad is one of THE major topics in Peirce. More detail in Semiotic elements and classes of signs (Peirce). Yet, much important stuff remains in Sign relations, especially on correspondence, determination, comprehension, denotation, etc., much of which I don't cover at all and any I don't understand everything in that article very clearly.
I hope it's not terrible to give two "main articles" for a section. I didn't know what else to do.The Tetrast 20:38, 15 September 2007 (UTC) I changed my mind, no two main articles for a single section.The Tetrast 20:49, 15 September 2007 (UTC)

Shortening the article as a whole remains a tough task ahead.The Tetrast 21:43, 15 September 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Distinguishing Charleses

Leaving a link at the top to a man with the same name but with no other distinguishing identification is only moderately helpful and begs the question "Which Charles Pierce?". If someone is looking for a Charles Pierce because of some philosophical or scientific principal, but that someone is not sure whether it is this one, they might waste time clicking on the other Charles Pierce's link. I think it would be more helpful if they could see up front that the other one is known for being a female impersonator, so they know if it's a scientific issue, they are in the right place. -- But|seriously|folks  17:55, 16 September 2007 (UTC)

Seems like a very sensible idea, BSF. Thank you. ... Kenosis 18:05, 16 September 2007 (UTC)
Thanks. Too bad I don't know how to spell "Peirce"! -- But|seriously|folks  18:29, 16 September 2007 (UTC)

Very funny, but this goes against standard practice, which leaves it to the target of the link to provide the additional details that are distracting in the present context. Ziemia Cieszynska 01:12, 17 September 2007 (UTC)

I believe standard practice is to state why the other individual is notable. Look at Charles Pierce, for example, or Wesley Clark, Douglas Adams or Samuel Beckett (the last three being featured articles). -- But|seriously|folks  01:37, 17 September 2007 (UTC)

See the following usage notes:

The guiding question to ask oneself is this: If a person types "Charles Peirce" into the Wikipedia search box, do they get what they expect or not? On that basis, there is actually no call for any "disambiguation link" at the top of the page. If a person is looking for a philosopher and types the mispelling "Charles Pierce" into the search box, then they will probably be surprised and no doubt amused, so there is a reason to put a disambiguation link on that page. Ziemia Cieszynska 02:06, 17 September 2007 (UTC)

And if they're looking for the famous female impersonator? --Haemo 02:16, 17 September 2007 (UTC)
If they're looking for the famous (a relative term) female impersonator, it's quite unlikely that they'll mistype "Peirce" for the "Pierce" which would have been correct. "Pierce" is a common name, "Peirce" is a bit unusual. And they'll quickly see that they have the wrong one and they'll see "not to be confused with Charles Pierce" and click on that name. The Tetrast 02:21, 17 September 2007 (UTC)
I see that Ziemia completely removed the disambiguation link. Previously Ziemia removed only the part about "female impersonator" and I was okay with the link in minimal form. I thought hanging the phrase "female impersonator" near Peirce's head was meant as a joke but I see that Butseriouslyfolks is a serious editor/administrator. Still, the phrase "female impersonator" is distractingly undignified in the context. That's my motive for agreeing with Ziemia, but she also has presented a good justification. The Tetrast 02:32, 17 September 2007 (UTC)

For what it's worth, I agree with Ziemia. The Tetrast 02:13, 17 September 2007 (UTC)

How about the people who can't get the "i before e" thing straight? Like this million people. Or this million people? It even took me a while to notice the difference in spelling between the Charleses, and I can spel wel. -- But|seriously|folks  02:34, 17 September 2007 (UTC)
Oh pleeease just put "Not to be confused with Charles Pierce" and let the "female imperonator" stuff go. I won't fight a reversion war over it but please please. The Tetrast 02:38, 17 September 2007 (UTC)
I believe the phrase is "i before e expect after c" not "i before e except when you're looking for the famous female impersonator". --Haemo 02:39, 17 September 2007 (UTC)
Can I ask what is so objectionable about the dab that we should break from established practice as shown above? -- But|seriously|folks  02:52, 17 September 2007 (UTC)
I don't concede that you have the argument over Ziemia in terms of practice or rules. But what's objectionable about "female impersonator" is that it is distractingly undignified in the context and, if it weren't, then it wouldn't be funny. If you don't think it's funny, say so to Tony Curtis and Dustin Hoffman. I rest my case, for the moment. The Tetrast 03:13, 17 September 2007 (UTC)
So if the other Charles was just a musician or actor, you wouldn't take issue with it? It's a valid Wikipedia article, just like any other. (I guess it's a good thing Peirce wasn't named Ron Jeremy!) Seriously, I really think we're doing people a disservice and encouraging forks if we don't do everything we can to help them find what they're looking for. -- But|seriously|folks  03:26, 17 September 2007 (UTC)

The logic of the above guideline is clear. The Wesley Clark et al. examples are not comparable because there the spellings are the same. This means that a person typing "Wesley Clark" into the search box while looking for one of the other WC's needs to be advised. There is no need for a reader advisory here, much less an excessively prolix one. Ziemia Cieszynska 03:32, 17 September 2007 (UTC)

In addition, the hatnote on the Wesley Clark article is in bad form for the following two reasons: (1) there are potentially a very large number of notables with the same first and last name, not all which should be listed at the top of every comparable article, and (2) one of those listed is a red link. The hatnote should be succinct and refer the reader to a disambiguation page where the variants can be listed in full. Ziemia Cieszynska 03:38, 17 September 2007 (UTC)

Ziemia is right and succinct, as usual. Anyway, yes, I wouldn't have taken issue with it if the other Charles were just a musician or actor. I don't think one does more than a very minimal disservice to Wikipedia reader if we leave off mention of "female impersonator" from "Not to be confused with Charles Pierce" which would be quite enough. De minimis. And there is in fact no need to rigorously maximize and extremize a particular kind of benefit to Wikipedia readers in every single case, especially when there is a countervailing concern, in the present case that of not including a distractingly undignified thing. And I have to go to sleep, good night, all! The Tetrast 03:42, 17 September 2007 (UTC) And yes, why one cares and what rules one invokes don't always have to be the same, they legitimately differ often enough in real life. The Tetrast 03:45, 17 September 2007 (UTC)

[edit] I don't think Ziemia is Jon

I notice that Ziemia has been banned as one of Jon's suspected sockpuppets. But there's no pun in Ziemia's name like Jon's sockpuppet names usually have. Ziemia's behavior has not been like Jon's. Ziemia reverted once or twice but that's not the same thing as what Jon does, and Ziemia was not involved in today's back-&-forth. I've looked at Ziemia's user page; it doesn't look like Jon's sockpuppet user pages, and Ziemia's contribution history doesn't look like Jon's sort of thing. And, most noticeably, Ziemia's comments don't sound like Jon at all. Ziemia is succinct, straightforward, unsarcastic to the point. I really, really doubt that Ziemia is Jon.

It shouldn't be dangerous to agree with Jon. I agree with Jon about Peirce's Pragmatic Maxim and about a number of other issues regarding Peirce. Jon used to post to peirce-l, where I sometimes agreed with him, sometimes tangled with him. I disagree with Jon (not to mention Peirce) about the adequacy of Peirce's object-sign-interpretant triad as a basis for logical/semiotic relations. I agree with Jon and Ziemia about the inappropriateness of the "female impersonater" label hanging near Peirce's head. I appreciate the administrators' help in letting this article be edited. But the atmosphere around here is like a college dorm now. "Female impersonator." Very funny. Can anybody please stop thinking of Tootsie for five minutes?

Everything was just fine, the article was finally peaceful and editable yet free of its long reversion wars, when disambiguation merely said "Not to be confused with Charles Pierce". Now instead the reversion war has restarted over this stuff. Well, I'll make myself scarce for a while. The Tetrast 00:10, 18 September 2007 (UTC)

[edit] The Commens Dictionary of Peirce's Terms

The Commens Dictionary of Peirce's Terms should not be confused with any Commons dictionary. It's got its own Website and everything, check it out http://www.helsinki.fi/science/commens/dictionary.html The word "commens" itself is Peirce's word for that which he also called the "commind". Basically it's com- + mens or "mind". The Tetrast 18:51, 18 September 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Time to end the female impersonator fun

It turns out that there are the following Charles/Charlie Pierce entries in Wikipedia:

  • Charles Pierce -- Female impersonator. Earliest edit: 18 February 2002 156.153.255.195
  • Charlie Pierce, a.k.a Charles P. Pierce -- Sportswriter. Earliest edit: 19 November 2005 JB82
  • Charles B. Pierce -- American movie director. Earliest edit: 24 September 2006 Lcduke
  • Charles Wilson Pierce -- U.S. Representative from Alabama. Earliest edit: 4 June 2007 Polbot

The impression, that the "female impersonator" phrase is intended for humor or spite, rather than for concern about the female impersonator himself, is reinforced by the fact that the disambiguation sentence, so quickly edited to retain the "female impersonator" phrase -- with an un-Jonlike reverter Ziemia so quickly banned as Jon's suspected sock (yes, the others were Jonlike) -- has been allowed to stand with Harrypotter's accidental misspelling of the female impersonator's name as if it were "Peirce" instead of "Pierce". Now that it turns out that there are at least four people named Charles Pierce with Wikipedia pages, perhaps the disambiguation can be edited simply point to Pierce (surname), which I've updated to include the already-existent Pierce pages. But I won't touch that disambiguation sentence, it seems to be some sort of line in the sand. The Tetrast 20:19, 24 September 2007 (UTC) Revised The Tetrast 20:24, 24 September 2007 (UTC). Addendum: If Jon reads this, I would suggest that he leave the disambiguation sentence alone. Let those who insisted on it make the changes which they now must make. The Tetrast 20:45, 24 September 2007 (UTC)

Now I see how to do it:

For people with the similar name Charles Pierce ("i" before "e", not after it), see Pierce (surname).

The Tetrast 21:52, 24 September 2007 (UTC)

Female impersonator "Peirce" has been corrected to "Pierce" See http://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Charles_Peirce&diff=160109713&oldid=160104920 as result of edit
21:28, 24 September 2007 Jpgordon (Talk | contribs) (69,823 bytes) (No, it didn't.) (undo)
--"No, it didn't"? It didn't reinforce the impression? But the impression is even further reinforced by disregard for Wikipedia:Disambiguation#Disambiguation_links:

Where there are several articles associated with the same ambiguous term, include a link to a separate disambiguation page.

and by disregard for second Charles Pierce (the sportswriter) already mentioned atop the female impersonator's page Charles Pierce.

Now, will you please stop this and repair the disambiguation sentence? The Tetrast 22:52, 24 September 2007 (UTC) Corrected above-mentioned sportswriter "Peirce" to "Pierce" The Tetrast 22:56, 24 September 2007 (UTC)

Update: The list now stands at Charles Peirce plus six seven eight people named Charles Pierce.

  1. Charles Pierce -- Female impersonator. Earliest edit: 18 February 2002 156.153.255.195
  2. Charlie Pierce, a.k.a Charles P. Pierce -- Sportswriter. Earliest edit: 19 November 2005 JB82
  3. Charles B. Pierce -- American movie director. Earliest edit: 24 September 2006 Lcduke
  4. Charles Wilson Pierce -- U.S. Representative from Alabama. Earliest edit: 4 June 2007 Polbot
  5. Charles Pierce Davey (Chuck Davey) -- American-born welterweight boxer and boxing commissioner for Michigan. Earliest edit: 31 August 2007 Chezzles.ze.great
  6. Edward C. Pierce (Edward Charles Pierce), U.S. politician and physician from Michigan. Earliest edit: 12 July 2006 Ropcat
  7. Justin Pierce (Justin Charles Pierce) -- English-American actor & professional skateboarder. Earliest edit: 26 January 2006 Denee
  8. Ricky Pierce (Ricky Charles Pierce) -- retired NBA basketball player. Earliest edit: 22 September 2005 Giantsrule

Seeing that there are pages disambiguating Kyle Pierce, Jack Pierce, and William Pierce, I have created a page Charles Pierce (disambiguation) containing the Charles Pierce's and Charles Peirce as well. Now you can repair the disambiguation sentence with this:

For people with the similar name Charles Pierce ("i" before "e", not after it), see Charles Pierce (disambiguation).

The Tetrast 00:59, 25 September 2007 (UTC) Revised The Tetrast 01:10, 25 September 2007 (UTC)

I'm not sure what I've stepped into, but I hope that the simple reference to the dismbiguation page will suffice. DCDuring 01:15, 25 September 2007 (UTC)

Thank you, thank you, thank you! The Tetrast 01:18, 25 September 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Recent copyedits

I have not looked forward to the time when secondary sources would be needed to clarify some of Peirce's concepts. Where, for instance, is the source justifying this edit? My recollection is that Peirce went farther than referring to just the experimental consequences of the "thing" to which a concept refers, but also was referring to the experimental consequences of the application of the concept itself to the thing it is intended to refer. The distinction is not insignificant. But I'd like to look at the source. Thanks. ... Kenosis 05:28, 25 September 2007 (UTC)

That's just a misconception, not founded in Peirce.

Please supply the source where Peirce goes beyond, in the sense which you seem to recollect, in order to identify a concept's meaning with the actual consequences themselves of the application of the concept.

Peirce usually clearly equates conception of thing with conception of conceivable practical consequences of thing.

You see a source right in the article itself:

Consider what effects that might conceivably have practical bearings you conceive the objects of your conception to have. Then, your conception of those effects is the whole of your conception of the object. (Peirce, CP 5.438.)

There are more statements by Peirce of the Pragmatic Maxim at the article on the Pragmatic maxim.

Here's one:

Such reasonings and all reasonings turn upon the idea that if one exerts certain kinds of volition, one will undergo in return certain compulsory perceptions. Now this sort of consideration, namely, that certain lines of conduct will entail certain kinds of inevitable experiences is what is called a "practical consideration". Hence is justified the maxim, belief in which constitutes pragmatism; namely:
In order to ascertain the meaning of an intellectual conception one should consider what practical consequences might conceivably result by necessity from the truth of that conception; and the sum of these consequences will constitute the entire meaning of the conception. (Peirce, CP 5.9, 1905).

And here's another. The following remark by Peirce, about his own previous statements of the Pragmatic Maxim, is especially notable:

This employment five times over of derivates of concipere must then have had a purpose. In point of fact it had two. One was to show that I was speaking of meaning in no other sense than that of intellectual purport. The other was to avoid all danger of being understood as attempting to explain a concept by percepts, images, schemata, or by anything but concepts. I did not, therefore, mean to say that acts, which are more strictly singular than anything, could constitute the purport, or adequate proper interpretation, of any symbol. I compared action to the finale of the symphony of thought, belief being a demicadence. Nobody conceives that the few bars at the end of a musical movement are the purpose of the movement. They may be called its upshot. (Peirce, CP 5.402 note 3, 1906).

Also see Peirce's "How to Make Our Ideas Clear" http://www.cspeirce.com/menu/library/bycsp/ideas/id-frame.htm . It is nis classic statement of Pragmatism. Follow the distinction among the first grade of clarity (the familiar immediate), the second grade of clarity (logicians' "distinctness", the clarity of the parts of the definition), and the third grade of clarity (pragmatic clarity, clarification in terms of conceivable practical consequences of the object portrayed by the conception). See how he then defines the real in the second and third grades of clarity.

Second: that which is what it is, independently of what you or I or any definite community of researchers thinks of it.
Third: that which would be reached inevitably by research adequately prolonged.

Note that his definition of the real involves reference to the experimental process, and that his definition of the real is not the same thing as his Pragmatic Maxim, though he employs the latter in arriving at the former.

Now, if you have a passage from Peirce in which he identifies a concept's meaning with actual consequences as such, please supply it.

12:13, 25 September 2007 (UTC) Corrected The Tetrast 12:15, 25 September 2007 (UTC)

Now, there is an experimental process for which the Pragmatic Maxim supplies the method, in that which seems to be Peirce's own view, when one is clarifying propositions through their consequences. That is the experimentation beginning with the hypothetical proposition itself and proceeding by the mental testing of said proposition by considering what would be the practical consequences of the proposition's portrayed reality, as when Peirce says, "These propositions cannot be regarded as certain; and, in order to bring them to a further test, it is now proposed to trace them out to their consequences" in "Some Consequences of Four Incapacities Claimed For Man", Journal of Speculative Philosophy 2, 1868, reprinted in CP5.265, see http://www.cspeirce.com/menu/library/bycsp/conseq/cn-frame.htm The Tetrast 13:29, 25 September 2007 (UTC) Much corrected The Tetrast 13:54, 25 September 2007 (UTC)

The segue from the Pragmatic Maxim to the discussion of methods of research and verification seemed too abrupt, given the Pragmatic Maxim's being a method of reflection for clarifying concepts by further concepts. I've revised the segue into something that's kind of safe and general, but I may be able to get some help from professional philosophers and scholars of Peirce, if people think there's a need. The Tetrast 01:02, 27 September 2007 (UTC) Minor but helpful revision The Tetrast 01:03, 27 September 2007 (UTC) I mean that I just made a minor but helpful revision of that which I just said here in Talk. I must oftener remember: Preview is my friend. The Tetrast 01:05, 27 September 2007 (UTC)

In the first sentence of the sub-head "Poverty," a word is out of order. The sentence reads: "In 1887 Peirce spent part of his inheritance from his parents to purchase 2,000 acres (8 km²) rural near Milford, Pennsylvania, land which never yielded an economic return." The word "rural" should be placed before "land," to read "rural land near Milford, Pennsylvania...." I would do this, but the page is locked for editing. [WLH, 13 Dec 2007] —Preceding unsigned comment added by 24.225.247.116 (talk) 16:13, 13 December 2007 (UTC)

Thank you. I've repaired the problem, which I may myself have accidentally caused! The Tetrast (talk) 18:35, 13 December 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Theory of Categories

Sorry I put nothing in the edit line, somebody knocked on the door and I hit the enter button by mistake. Anyway, I've shortened the section by creating a new article Categories (Peirce) and restoring some old material there (with a few tweaks and an update), which helps outline the pertinence of the long quote from Peirce's "Prolegomena." Same table both in section here and in separate article? Well, I hope to enrich the version at the separate article, make it more elaborate or something. The Tetrast 01:55, 2 October 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Reordering of article

Please don't rush to revert! It's done to bring the topics into harmony with Peirce's classification of the sciences. See Classification of the sciences (Peirce). This will create the opportunity to bring in some neglected threads of his thought, in a natural way. The Tetrast 21:03, 2 October 2007 (UTC)

It turns out that Peirce had the same idea, and worked it out into further detail, for his memoirs in 1902 for his Carnegie application. See Joseph Ransdell's comments and his tabular list of titles of Peirce's proposed list of memoirs in 1902 for his Carnegie application, Eprint The Tetrast 21:00, 3 October 2007 (UTC)

On rereading the "Dynamics of Inquiry" subsection, I realized that it, or its text, belonged back somewhere like where it originally stood, anyway near the beginning of the discussion of logic/semiotics. It really is a general discussion of Peirce's interest in inquiry, semiotics, etc., which Peirce himself "filed" under (philosophical) "Logic" which he cast as Formal Semiotic. ("Logic Proper" was a subdivision thereof). The distinction between the syllogistic approach versus the sign-theoretic approach as two approaches to the same thing is one that comes in handy, since new readers often don't get that Peirce's (formal) semiotics is philosophical logic pursued in terms of signs and sign processes. I guess what I'm struggling with here is that I don't see how to significantly shrink it, but I don't see how to spin it off into its own article, either. Well, maybe a little time will help. The Tetrast 21:41, 3 October 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Influenced

23:57, 10 October 2007 Jlwelsh (Talk | contribs) (81,438 bytes) (Added "Influenced" section to info box and added Habermas to that section.) (undo)

Habermas isn't the only one! This could be fun. Especially one has the TOC unhidden, there's plenty of space for the others whom Peirce has influenced. William James, John Dewey, to begin with. The Tetrast 02:15, 11 October 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Abbreviation

It's been brought to my attention that the standard abbreviation for the Writings of Charles S. Peirce. A chronological Edition is not "CE" but "W". And that turns out to be the abbreviation already used at the German Wikipedia's Peirce bibliography http://de.wikipedia.org/wiki/Charles_S._Peirce/Schriften. So I'll make the change here. I've already done so at Charles Sanders Peirce bibliography. The Tetrast 13:02, 11 October 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Philosophy: Logic, or semiotic

I moved the "F.R.L" quote to the front (it's no longer in "Theory of Inquiry"), shortened the quote, added some discussion, and made lots of briefenings of phrase elsewhere in the section, so that, I hope, overall the section is only a bit longer now than it was before. The Tetrast 20:26, 15 October 2007 (UTC) I've corrected my typo "F.R.I." here in Talk and in one place in the article, to "F.R.L." The Tetrast 21:25, 15 October 2007 (UTC)

I don't think that your rewrite of Peirce's paragraph on the FRL improved it any, and there's nothing wrong with using a hefty block quote of his original words in a matter as weighty as this. Ian Ouellette 03:46, 16 October 2007 (UTC)

As to "improving" F.R.L., that's a strawman. I managed to get a whole lot more info from "F.R.L" into the article while lengthening the article that much less, and counterbalancing that loud "Semiotics" template that somebody dragged up. The weighty matter about the F.R.L. proper and its corollary were already here, but the weighty matter about the four barriers was not previously here in the section, nor was most of it in the article at all. Now fallibilism and the rest (Peirce's philosophy is large) are right up front in the philosophy: logic, or semiotic section, and their front seats are secured by referenced links regarding the presuppositions of Logic. AND I have included links to where people can read all of "F.R.L." on even the slowest-downloading computers. The Tetrast 12:27, 16 October 2007 (UTC). As to freely adding to article length, I'm not eager to do that, and anyway it's somebody else's goal and battle. Generally I've been lengthening the article, but always while doing my best not to do so by leaps and bounds, and the result is that I've introduced or re-introduced a bunch of things that have been either not here lately or not here at all. Peirce's philosophy is large. The Tetrast 12:31, 16 October 2007 (UTC) Also look at all the little touches, which experienced Peirce readers know are no mere "touches," which I manage to retain. Almost anybody else would have omitted the part about "in one sense, this sole" and the part about metaphysicians' addiction to blocking of inquiry, which I also secured by mentioning Peirce's placement of logic before metaphysics, a placement for which he argued more than once, and which placement is a subject to which current discussion often turns when newbies start pressing about supposedly insufficiently narrow metaphysical assumptions in the logic. The Tetrast 13:30, 16 October 2007 (UTC)

I just think that Peirce's setup works best when left intact, as people often get confused about the relationship between the FRL and its Corollary. Ian Ouellette 15:38, 16 October 2007 (UTC)

Not only have I left Peirce's setup intact, discussing the issues in the order in which he discussed them, making explicit the logical connections ("corollarial"), and getting more of "F.R.L"s content into the article than ever was there before, but also generally I'm the one who introduced Peirce's setup for the organization of the article's discussions of his maths and philosophy, and now there's a natural place for it if we get into his scientific work too. Now, somebody may like Peirce's prose best, but there is no option to replace the article (and septuple its length) with a sequence of texts by Peirce. But I've also even provided the reader with a dozen or more times worth of that option, too, than there used to be here ever before, the option to read Peirce's own texts, by embedding so many links here and elsewhere (and look at the bibliography), that the articles all fairly rattle in a joyful way. The Tetrast 20:18, 16 October 2007 (UTC)

Okay, I emphasized the difference between the F.R.L. proper and its corollary. The Tetrast 20:28, 16 October 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Article length 2

I subdivided the opening section of "Philosophy: Logic, or semiotic", and while such explicit marks of organization help the reader of a long article, one also notices, gee, the article is long. I rephrased for economy quite a bit a day or two ago in the text now called "Dynamics of inquiry" but there's only so much I can do in that direction. How urgent is the issue of length now for the Peirce article as a whole? I'm still kind of new around here. Should I move the length question to the top of the agenda, or should I not worry about it too much just as yet? The Tetrast 02:04, 20 October 2007 (UTC)

Sure has gotten quiet around here. Whoda ever thunk it? The Tetrast 03:56, 22 October 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Attribution: Logic of relatives, Kaina Stoicheia, etc.

There were four "Logic of relatives" articles, an "On a New List of Categories" article, and a "Kaina Stoicheia" article, all nearly stubs, a few sentences in the main body of each, which Awbrey created way back. I've moved that of his material (some sentences) which was useful into the main Peirce article here. The Kaina Stoicheia article was stub-like except for a long quote of text from Peirce's article, and that text and the rest of Peirce's article are all available (the same text, I checked) in the Arisbe version, to which I linked. The Tetrast (talk) 22:33, 28 November 2007 (UTC)

I added Awbrey's material from the above-mentioned separate articles into the corresponding subsections (the LOR, KS, & ONLC subsections, themselves already mostly by Awbrey) under "Works". The Tetrast 17:47, 30 November 2007 (UTC) Inserted a few words here. The Tetrast 20:44, 30 November 2007 (UTC)

Another attribution: I revived the coherentism reference and link, for which Jon Awbrey was originally responsible http://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Charles_Peirce&diff=104257071&oldid=104126178 The Tetrast 17:17, 4 December 2007 (UTC). Update: I don't know whether that was Awbrey -- actually it says "Farmer Kiss" and I kind of assumed it was Awbrey. I should read less quickly. The Tetrast 18:03, 4 December 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Long Pragmatism section

Now I'm thinking of moving some of the "Pragmatism" section into the main article on "Pragmaticism". But I'm running out of energy for tonight. The Tetrast (talk) 22:44, 28 November 2007 (UTC)

[edit] GFDL

Note to whoever moves contributions from one article to another: The GFDL requires author attribution to be retained, and the customary way to do that at wikipedia is to add appropriate information into the edit summary and/or the talk page. In the case of articles like these that basically have one author, a statement like that indicating Jon Awbrey as the primary author of material in the article prior to (January 2007?) in both an edit summary (perhaps of a null edit?) and on the talk page would be appropriate. (Often I move content from one article to another and say in the edit summary "moved from name of article". That doesn't work if the article is then deleted. Why people don't just make the articles redirects instead of deletions makes no sense to me.) WAS 4.250 (talk) 18:13, 29 November 2007 (UTC)

Example Edit summary says: "Agriculture policy concerns - some content from Citrus canker, Foot and mouth disease, Bovine spongiform encephalopathy" WAS 4.250 (talk) 00:08, 30 November 2007 (UTC)

Yes, I see. I already did some of that just above in Talk:Charles Peirce section "Logic of relatives, Kaina Stoicheia, etc." Maybe that section should have a different name. Or I should add "Attribution" to its name. Also see the talk page at Talk:Semiotic_elements_and_classes_of_signs_(Peirce). Just last night in the Attributions section I added a link to an old version of a section in the main Peirce article, a section which had been deleted and which I revived as the basis for the new "Semiotic elements and classes of signs (Peirce)" article. I had written a lot of that section, and others had written some, maybe a lot -- Jon may have written quite a bit of it but one would have to dig back through the main Peirce article's edit histories to nail down which things he wrote. The Tetrast (talk) 00:23, 30 November 2007 (UTC) Fixed typos. The Tetrast (talk) 00:26, 30 November 2007 (UTC)
Thank you for that. Jon put a lot of hard work into giving this gift of knowledge to the world and he is legally and ethically entitled to reasonable attribution per its GFDL copy-left copyright. I'm sure that whatever you wind up doing in this regard will be well within what is appropriate. Thank you for helping to improve Wikipedia. WAS 4.250 (talk) 00:54, 30 November 2007 (UTC)
I have restored the subarticles as redirects. Kaldari (talk) 20:28, 21 December 2007 (UTC)

[edit] References versus Endnotes

I've been thinking that it would be simpler in a number of cases to link directly to entries in the References section. In fact I already set up some links WITH return links but the return links are a pain, and the complexity of reference will make it hard for others to edit.

How about this?: When the endnote would simply be a reference to a work without annotation or specific page number, I add a superscripted "REF", for example REF, with a link to the entry in references, and I somewhere somewhere tell the viewer to use the browser's "back" button in order to return to the original place in the article text.

Then also there would be these advantages:

  • When there are multiple links to a single reference entry, it's not like an endnote where you have to make sure that the endnote's text is in the first link. The references' texts are all down in the References section, that's where they're edited, when one edits them at all (no annotations to edit).
  • One can link to references from footnotes.

And it's easy to find the span id (since they're all together there).

Or instead of REF I could use a whatchamacallit, a ^, maybe boldfaced, like this: ^.

Please, comments, cautions, any? The Tetrast (talk) 20:31, 29 November 2007 (UTC)

Well, the reference would need to be stated at least briefly up in the original text, e.g., "Haack 2002", enough that a person could manually find the reference if they needed to. The Tetrast (talk) 20:36, 29 November 2007 (UTC)

The caron (inverted circumflex) is too small, and maybe not common enough in fonts, likewise the small tilde.
How about † or † ? The Tetrast (talk) 21:02, 29 November 2007 (UTC)

Perhaps Integrated Multi-Trophic Aquaculture will give you ideas? I suggest you look at other articles and use something that is used somewhere else, perhaps in a featured article. If you invent something new here it will wind up being unmaintainable. WAS 4.250 (talk) 21:21, 29 November 2007 (UTC)

As far as I can tell, the Aquaculture article simply uses footnotes and calls them "References and Notes". There's no alphabetization. You're right though, if I invent something new, it will wind up being unmaintainable. But maybe I'll come up with an idea that stays within the familiar ways. The Tetrast (talk) 21:57, 29 November 2007 (UTC)


[edit] Pronunciation of "Peirce"

This article has had enough issues over the question of what to say about the pronunciation of Peirce's name in the past. The resolution was to include no phonetic rendition at the cluttered beginning of the article at all. People keep playing with it, putting in one version or another, and so on. In other words, there's no way that Kawamikagami's edit will last anyway. The resolution was simply to omit such renditions from the main body of the text, especially given the clutter already in the first paragraph.

I was the one who came along and added a footnote including all the phonetic renditions (which I put there especially for those for whom English is not a first language, for instance editors of Peirce wikis in other languages -- a footnote with a link to the Peirce Edition Project explaining how it is that "Peirce" is pronounced like "purse", not "pierce"). Meanwhile what the average reader needs to know is that "Peirce" is pronounced like the word "purse."

Moreover, the phonetic rendition which Kwamikagami is attempting to add is one of the inferior ones. The vowel in Peirce's name is an 'r-colored vowel and whether the "r" is clearly pronounced or not depends on whether the speaker clearly pronounces the "r" in words like "purse" and "word." Peirce himself probably did not clearly pronounce it, since he grew up in the Harvard University area. The Tetrast (talk) 14:22, 6 December 2007 (UTC)

A couple points: (1) Per MoS, pronunciation should be in the IPA, with sound-alikes etc. used as adjuncts. (Not that the MoS has to be followed.) (2) We shouldn't use dialect-specific pronunciations unless we clarify what we're doing. If you follow the help link, you'll be told /ɝ/ is the sound of words like purse, however you pronounce that - exactly what you're saying. (3) SAMPA is obsolete and deprecated in Wikipedia. (4) Your other transcription links to a non-existent pronunciation key. That does nothing to help the non-English speaker, who most likely will have no idea what /û/ is supposed to represent. (And which by the way you specified as being rhotic: "pûrs".)
Right now the name has <ɜr> (that was an easier edit from the bot). Would <ɝ> be preferable as being more rhotically ambiguous? kwami (talk) 14:39, 6 December 2007 (UTC)
The "ɝ" character is barely legible on screen, even when I increase the font size, and only a sharp-eyed linguist will understand it by looking at it.
I used the "pûrs" because that's what that system specified for rendition of the word "purse."
A rendition which encloses the "r" in the parentheses is the one likeliest to be understood, and that's what's good about two of the renditions.
Most foreign-language readers trying to read the article will not be entirely unfamiliar with typical English phonetic renditions.
The rendition of an r-colored vowel is not dialectical, rather it refers to the covariance of pronunciation with dialect.
The enPR link led to an entry when I first added it; now however there's a corresponding page only at Wikipedia, not at Wiktionary.
And again, as I said, when there's a phonetic rendition in the main body of the text, people keep coming along and playing with it, and there's enough clutter in there already. Please let's stick with the previous resolution of the issue, the resolution which actually lasted for a while. The Tetrast (talk) 15:02, 6 December 2007 (UTC)
Moreover, the use of all three phonetic renditions in the footnote helps assure not only that fans of each system are happy, it also helps assure the reader that the surprising pronunciation being stated for "Peirce" is no mere typographical error in the wiki itself. The Tetrast (talk) 15:19, 6 December 2007 (UTC)
Okay, at least let me clean up the footnote a bit (ASCII double hyphens, etc.), and update the links. When I'd checked, the template had lead to a blank page, so evidently someone fixed it in the last few hours. But it isn't necessary to say 'sounds like "purse"' seven (not three) times - people will understand with just the five! The "rendition of an r-colored vowel" works for all transcriptions, including the IPA, and no one is going to understand SAMPA unless they already can read the IPA - it is simply the IPA in ASCII, and we're not confined to ASCII. Also, ɝ is found in hundreds of articles, and no one has complained that it's illegible, except for one person who couldn't make out any IPA symbols at all. And, actually, most non-English readers are completely baffled by renditions such as 'pûrs'. kwami (talk) 20:44, 6 December 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Article length again

In response to the article's being tagged for length, I've moved a bunch of material from the Pragmatism section into the Pragmaticism wiki. I'll look around to see what else I can do. The Tetrast (talk) 16:14, 12 December 2007 (UTC)

Now I've moved most of the material from the "Science of Review" section into the wiki Classification of the sciences (Peirce). The Tetrast (talk) 16:41, 12 December 2007 (UTC)

Now I've deleted a paragraph from the "Categories" section. The paragraph still appears in the Categories (Peirce) wiki. The Tetrast (talk) 17:02, 12 December 2007 (UTC)

I put some important stuff back into the Pragmatism section, but did a lot of tweaking for brevity throughout the section. Basically, the three grades of clearness, the definitions of truth and the real, and some mention of Peirce's distinction of theoretical from practical standards of inquiry, are important enough to remain in the article somehow. Meanwhile, I'll keep looking for other ways to briefen. The Tetrast (talk) 18:29, 12 December 2007 (UTC)

I took out the long Putnam quote, added a footnote linking to it elsewhere, and added a mention of C.I. Lewis's remarks, and added a footnote to them, too. The Tetrast (talk) 19:02, 12 December 2007 (UTC)

I dunno, I'm looking at the Wiki on Article Series. Maybe that's the way to go. The Tetrast (talk) 19:50, 12 December 2007 (UTC)

When I copy out the main body into an html email, it comes to around 234 KB. When I copy the sections with Abbrevations, Footnotes, References, etc., that comes to around 107 KB. So almost 1/3 of the artices bytes seems to be outside the main body of the text. Using the ratio 234/107 as a rough gauge, then, if the article is 99 KB right now, then around 68 or 70 KB of it is the main body. The Tetrast (talk) 20:41, 12 December 2007 (UTC)

Quick note in passing, editor to editor. (I placed the page length warning on the page.) If you want to figure the total length, when you hit 'edit page' it will show the KB size at the top- no need for laborious cut and pasting.
Additionally, article length is simply a guideline. Personally, I feel that the infobox may be more valuable than the space you win by deleting it. Speaking as a layman on Peirce, an article of this magnitude seriously benefits from the summary the box provides, and its deletion doesn't address the article's problem directly. My humble suggestion would be the creation of two or three subpages on Peirce's major contributions in different fields, e.g., Mathematical contributions of Peirce or Philosophical contributions of Peirce. As far as article length goes, I would aim for around 70KB max, but don't feel the need to sacrifice article clarity just for the sake of length... length is always negotiable.
Excellent work on the article, carry on. Chromancer (talk) 22:18, 12 December 2007 (UTC)
Thanks. I'm thinking about it. Some might think that it's okay for the Peirce wiki to be about as long as it is, and a lot of it is footnotes, references, further reading, etc., which officially "doesn't count" toward article length, but the fact is that I've been thinking in terms of further expansion, so your kind of solution seems inevitable. The sections on Peirce's maths, philosophy, etc., are now structured according to Peirce's own classifications, which were pretty comprehensive, and he had hoped to write his intellectual memoirs according to that structure. So there is a structure in place to include rather more of his contributions than I've discussed so far, and I haven't even finished with the philosophical ones yet -- there's not even a mention of his "critical commonsensism" yet. I'm hoping to get some help on the mathematical contributions, since he did work in areas besides mathemtical logic and algebra of relations. As to the infobox, I'll put it back in. I didn't mind getting rid of it for certain reasons but a solution has occurred to me regarding those reasons. The Tetrast (talk) 02:31, 18 December 2007 (UTC)


[edit] Merging and GFDL

Usual reading of the GFDL is that there is no violation since the full list of authors remains stored in the database. The list of authors from any particular deleted article can be asked at the Administrator Noticeboard, if needed. Please do not disrupt Wikipedia to prove a point. -- lucasbfr talk 04:24, 21 December 2007 (UTC)

Note that Prescisive abstraction is not deleted, and its history is readable. I have undeleted Kaina Stoicheia and The Simplest Mathematics, and their history is now readable too. -- lucasbfr talk 04:37, 21 December 2007 (UTC)
A specific explanation of any other problems would be appreciated, should there be any. – Luna Santin (talk) 04:38, 21 December 2007 (UTC)
The other subarticles have been undeleted and changed to redirects. Kaldari (talk) 20:51, 21 December 2007 (UTC)
  • If we want to be completely anal about it we can move the pages to subpages of this article and then merge and leave the redirect, but as noted above there is no need to do this as long as we can show where the edit was made, which we can from deleted history. What's most disappointing here is that one person's obsession with having his name in the edit history is causing so much work for others. I rather wish he'd sue us and let the courts decide. Guy (Help!) 21:25, 21 December 2007 (UTC)
    • (drive by comment-commenting only on the GFDL issue raised, not the actual content) Last I checked, the dev's have NOT placed any guarantee on maintaining the deleted edit history, and even if they had this would break attribution for anyone forking or copying this article. — xaosflux Talk 04:31, 23 December 2007 (UTC)
    • Agree with Xaos. We should be very careful with such issues. The fact that Awbrey is annoying and cares more about his name than actual GFDL compliance doesn't really figure into it. We should obey the GFDL in both letter and spirit. This does both. JoshuaZ (talk) 15:58, 3 January 2008 (UTC)

[edit] Birthplace

User:Swampyank added a picture of Peirce's birthplace, which basically show a section of a wooden wall. Should it stay? trespassers william (talk) 09:09, 17 May 2008 (UTC)