Talk:Charles Maurice de Talleyrand-Périgord

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Contents

[edit] Napoleon quote

Could we please find any excuse at all to report that Napoleon referred to Talleyrand as "shit in a silk stocking?" Please? :) - montréalais

Hmm.. well.. Talleyrand's illegitimate son by Adélaïde-Emilie Filleul (herself apparently the illegitimate daughter of King Louis XV), Auguste Charles Joseph, Comte de Flahaut de la Billarderie, fought under Napoleon, and was the lover of Caroline Murat (Napoleon's sister) and of Hortense de Beauharnais (Napoleon's step-daughter), whose illegitimate son by him became Duke of Morny. But I guess that would make him a bastard in silk-stockings - close but no cigar :(. Under what circumstances was Napoleon's comment made? -- Someone else 07:31 Mar 11, 2003 (UTC)
semi-answering myself here: on 28 janvier 1809, «Ah, tenez, vous êtes de la merde dans un bas de soie», apparently on the basis of his implacably officious, bureaucratic nature.... -- Someone else 07:45 Mar 11, 2003 (UTC)

:Talleyrand was very cultured, charming, well-groomed, etc, and Napoleon admired him for all this. He was also guilty of mass bribes, treachery, general "evil-doing" that led people to say he had the face of an angel and the soul of the devil. Hence the 'shit in silk stocking' line. - Tavi October 28 2004

Most of the internet biographies maintain he is buried at Valençay. Was he moved to the Cimetière de Passy, or are we just wrong about that? -- Someone else 07:19 Mar 11, 2003 (UTC)

EB also says he was buried at Valençay. However, several listings of the graves at Passy mention that his grave is there, so I'm pretty sure he was moved. AxelBoldt 18:18, 3 Feb 2004 (UTC)
Actually I take that back: I don't believe the sites that mention Passy anymore.AxelBoldt 18:48, 3 Feb 2004 (UTC)
I already answered in the french Bistro, but it's better to repeat it here : I suppose he would be listed on http://www.paris.fr/fr/vos_demarches/obseques/cimetiere_passy.ASP if his grave were in Cimetière de Passy. Since he's not, I guess you have your answer..._R_ 13:54, 4 Feb 2004 (UTC)

[edit] Sources?

Looking at this article, it's obvious that it has significant unacknowledged sources: it's far too circumstantial to be just what someone knows off the top of their head. I'm guessing the sources are mostly public domain (because old), but they should still be acknowledged. -- Jmabel 05:54, Jul 4, 2004 (UTC)

Anon recently changed the date Napoleon made him Grand Chamberlain and Vice-elector and that he bought the Chateau Valençay from 1803 to 1804. I have no idea whether this is a correction or subtle vandalism. Does anyone have a citation? Jmabel (undated, sorry, some time spring '05 I think)

[edit] Deletion

Why is my contribution completely deleted, without any discussion about the contents? I have read a biography of Talleyrand and you can't delete information just like that to my opinion. user 82.139.82.46, or daanschr

  • I'm sure that if your contribution was deleted, it was because someone had a problem with the content, not with you personally. I, for one, don't look through the article history for what content is whose; almost no one does. I suggest, though, that if you want to understand why your particular content was removed, that you search the edit history and see whether the person who removed it left an edit summary. If not, I suggest you ask about the specific content issue here instead of asking about "my contribution", because the issue is going to be whether the content is worth having in the article, not who put it there. -- Jmabel | Talk July 3, 2005 03:56 (UTC)

[edit] foot

The medical literature refers to him having a "club foot" rather than a "foot injury". Do we know which of these two is (or are both) true? - Nunh-huh 09:36, 31 October 2005 (UTC)

[edit] Bribes

I have heard before the allegations of bribes that were recently added to the article as unvarnished fact. I have no idea of whether they are true. Does anyone have a citation for this? -- Jmabel | Talk 00:37, 6 November 2005 (UTC)

[edit] Odd recent addition removed

Lord Talleyrand should not be confused with Lord Halleyrand who became the first 21st Regal lord of "The Regency" in St. Davids, PA in June of 2004.

Indeed. Nor is he likely to be, so I have removed this from the article. (Talleyrand should not be confused with Sally Rand, either.) -- Jmabel | Talk 08:17, 19 November 2005 (UTC)

[edit] Wife

The following was recently, anonymously removed without comment:

Talleyrand tried to prevent a marriage, but after a lot of postponement, he was obliged to marry on instigation of Napoleon: otherwise his political career would have been over. Visitors to Talleyrand were shocked by the behaviour of his wife, who was regarded as a beauty, but very stupid.

I don't really have any remark on it either way; I wouldn't mind seeing it restored, but if it is, citation would be nice. - Jmabel | Talk 00:41, 10 December 2005 (UTC)

"Je suis d'Inde" is her famous line. Mme de Talleyrand was born in India to be sure, but a dinde is a female dindon (turkey). --Wetman 08:39, 8 February 2006 (UTC)
I'm restoring it with a citation. It seems roughly true. Talleyrand doesn't appear to have been particularly bothered whether he married or not. More interestingly, they couldn't get a proper dispensation from Rome to allow it (Talleyrand being, nominally, still a bishop who had taken priestly orders). In the end Napoleon simply announced that Rome had allowed it, twisting the words of a dispatch from Rome granting Talleyrand's "secularization". Perhaps that should go in the article too. —The preceding unsigned comment was added by 203.173.12.40 (talk • contribs) 12 November 2006.
It would just be obsurd to think of someone telling Talleyrand that his carrer would be over, Even Napoleon. She was regarded by him Tallyrand "Of great beauty, but I have never met a more idle or lazy person in my life." {This quote is from a wikipeida article, that I cannot find )
From NY times, 1883 (April 15, 1883, Wednesday Page 12, 537 words), Talleyrand was quoted by the Times "Mais mon cher, que voule-vous que je fasse, ma femme est si bête" Trans: "We take the truth of the matter to be that Mem. de Talleyrand was at times a little crazy."
[[1]]
I would actually resolve this, by just quoting Talleyrand from the Times.

--Artoftransformation 04:05, 13 October 2007 (UTC)

The question of Catherine Grand and the marriage is vexing, and many aspects remain unclear. Talleyrand was well known for burning letters (he gives specific instructions on how to burn a letter to one of his female friends Aimee de Coigny, as she records in her memoires; and at the foot of one surviving letter of his are the words "Brulez Cette Lettre"). It is perhaps little surprise that we have zero correspondence between Talleyrand and his wife. The circumstances of his marriage are odd and unclear-- a subject addressed by the historian Leon Noel. Its hard to tell whether Catherine was stupid or not-- one must remember that she was a native English speaker, living in France; how much of her maladroit comments are simply the product of someone speaking in a non-native language? We just don't know.

What is clear from the Memoires of Madame de Remusat is that the marriage surprised contemporaries -- Catherine was Talleyrand's mistress, and hardly "marrying material" for someone with a great name like Talleyrand-Perigord, and was thought to have been forced upon Talleyrand by Napoleon. Whether that is true or not we don't know, but it is what was thought at the time. Crocodilian (talk) 20:10, 20 May 2008 (UTC)

[edit] "Shit in a silk stocking" the context and the reference

The celebrated dressing down by Napoleon is most completely reported in the memoires of Chancelier Pasquier (an excellent primary reference for this period in French history). The context is complex. Napoleon was in Spain, fighting a war of which Talleyrand did not approve. The Napoleonic regime was less domestically stable than the later Napoleonic legend would have it. . . Napoleon did not have deep political roots in France, and faced continuous, well funded espionage by foreign powers in league with the Bourbons (see Elizabeth Sparrow's excellent "Secret Service: British Agents in France" (ISBN 0851157645) for many examples). Napoleon had also faced an assassination attempt, and a coup attempt by another general (for example Pichegru).

In that context, Napoleon devised an interesting strategy for domestic peace. A ferocious former revolutionary, Joseph Fouche ran an extremely effective police force, and had his thumb on his former colleagues in the radical left. Talleyrand as an aristocrat with well known ties with Britain (his wife was English, and Fox was a close friend) and with the elite of society. Napoleon's neat phrase for this relationship was "Fouche is the Talleyrand of the clubs [meaning the republican organizations] and Talleyrand is the Fouche of the salons". The fact that the two men advertised their disdain for one another made Napoleon confident that he had a clever arrangement for assuring his control over domestic political opposition.

Against that backdrop, it was a major challenge to Napoleon when, while he was in Spain, Talleyrand and Fouche publically patched up their differences, and appeared together, Talleyand leaning on Fouche's arm (because of the limp -- but the physical proximity was a significant message in a society that was very much oriented to small signals). Not only did they appear together, but Talleyrand voiced his opposition to the Spanish War.

Napoleon, learning of all this, viewed it as tantamount to a coup attempt. He rushed back from Spain, and held the celebrated public dressing down of Talleyrand where this comment was made. The longer tirade includes other such memorable lines as "I could break you like glass, but it's not worth the trouble".

It is interesting that Napoleon juggled Talleyrand and Fouche in and out of power, trying to make use of their talents, which he estimed, while understanding that their loyalty was purely situational. It appears that he believed that he could balance the one off against the other-- but each man was more sophisticated than this, and its reasonable to assume that they reached their own private accomodation with each other. —Preceding unsigned comment added by Crocodilian (talk • contribs) 24 Feb 2006

[edit] Nature of Talleyrand's infirmity

The exact nature of Talleyrand's infirmity is unknown. His memoires describe it as the result of childhood injury. Such injuries do occur ("toddler fractures") but context makes this seem less likely. His precision in reporting the malfeasance of a wetnurse, at a time which he could not recall, is suspect. One should remember that congenital deformities were not uncommon in that time, nor were injuries to extremities resulting in amputation or lameness. However, there was a major social difference-- congenital deformities were thought to reflect character, whereas injuries that occurred later in life were understood as accidental. In that context, see Barras' nasty slur on Talleyrand to the effect "his soul is as twisted as his body"-- a comment which is more telling if the defect were congenital.

A reasonable guess is that he preferred to present this defect as acquired, rather than congenital, because an acquired injury had a different social connotation. —Preceding unsigned comment added by Crocodilian (talk • contribs) 24 Feb 2006

[edit] Mary Wollstonecraft

Shouldn't there be a reference to the dedication/address to Talleyrand-Périgord by Mary Wollstonecraft in her Vindication of the Rights of Woman, as a response to the Declaration of the Rights of Men? - Dotte uk 11:29, 6 May 2006 (UTC)

So is there any reason you don't want to write it yourself? - Jmabel | Talk 04:59, 25 May 2006 (UTC)

That's a bit tricky. Wollstonecraft's dedication was influenced by some of Talleyrand's comments . . . but they were actually the work of Germaine de Stael, his sometime lover/political ally. Talleyrand does have a reputation as an early supporter of women's causes, but its very hard to distinguish his opinions and actions from those of de Stael.

To write this accurately requires digging into the murkiness of just which comment of Talleyrand's Wollstonecraft was noting (I'm not clear on that) and whether or not this was actually his or de Stael's. Crocodilian (talk) 20:14, 20 May 2008 (UTC)

[edit] That was worse than a crime, it was a blunder.

Talleyrand did not say this and I have removed it. I have thought about mentioning in the article that the statement is commonly and erroneously attributed to him, but this seems a little silly. As Joseph Fouche (N's minister of police) in fact said this, it should go in the WP article on him. However, if anyone wants to mention the quote in this article, I would have no objections to adding it back, with proper attribution to Fouche. Also, if readded, the quote should be in the form in the cited source, as this is the way it is usually rendered in English. JChap (Talk) 03:15, 17 July 2006 (UTC)

I would like to disagree with that. Emmanuel de Waresquiel, noted French historian, attributes the quote to Talleyrand. Where does this idea that it comes from Fouche comes from? - Habib Fanny, Ypsilanti, MI April 18th, 2007

Could you provide a cite for that? I don't know where I first got the "idea" that Fouche said this, but I verified it in the linked quote above. ObiterDicta ( pleadings • errata • appeals ) 17:20, 21 May 2007 (UTC)

Like many of the bons mots of the day, this has been ascribed to more than one person. Talleyrand would have had more reason to view the killing of Enghien as a blunder than Fouche (as a deputy, Fouche had voted for the execution of Louis XVI, and as such the killing of Enghien was far from the blackest mark on his reputation). I note that many of the quotes that are ascribed to Talleyrand here are dubious. He was famous as a man who said many clever things, and as such all sorts of clever things that he did not say are attributed to him -- most famously "speech was given to man to conceal his thoughts". Solid sources for his quotes are his Memoires, the "Album Perdu", the Memoires of Chancellor Pasquier. Talleyrand was famous for his wit, and many people left memoires from this period, so there are a wealth of sources that have a page or two from a dinner with Talleyand. Crocodilian (talk) 06:44, 8 April 2008 (UTC)

[edit] Prime Minister

Prime Minister is a fairly important position. Even though he did not hold the office long, I think it would be appropriate to comment on exactly when he acheived this office, any notable accomplishments (or a comment specifying that there were none) and the circumstances of his departure from the office. Any takers? Mdotley 17:43, 22 September 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Burr

Is there any source for the aside about Aaron Burr? And why does it merit mention in the encyclopedia? - Jmabel | Talk 02:21, 13 November 2006 (UTC)

There needs to be a longer section on Talleyrand's American connections. He lived in the US from 1794-96, and was responsible for the XYZ Affair, and was a principle actor in what has been called the "Quasi-War" between France and the US. I have seen the Burr comment, I believe in the Journals of George Ticknor, but I will check. Talleyrand's comments about and relations with Americans of the period, given the importance of Franco-American relations during this period, are worthy of inclusion.

A propos of which, there should be something about his involvement in the Louisiana Purchase -- the most significant Franco-American diplomatic event of his career, and one which obviously has historical magnitude. —Preceding unsigned comment added by Crocodilian (talk • contribs) 20:20, 20 May 2008 (UTC)

[edit] Prince of Benevento

"Talleyrand was said to be vain: he kept on using his title, Prince of Benevento, after Napoleon was defeated, despite his principality being reincorporated into Italy. This irritated King Louis XVIII and his court."

Have removed this because it appears to be patently untrue. J.F. Bernard writes in a biography that after the Peace of Paris in 1814, Talleyrand stopped using the title of Prince of Benevento, as it would have represented him as a "son of the Revolution". He goes on to say that at the Congress of Vienna, Talleyrand called himself "Prince de Talleyrand", which would have been "considerably more respectable, in the eyes of legitimist [royal] Europe," than his previous title. This is from J.F Bernard's biography titled Talleyrand, published 1973, fn p. 368. —The preceding unsigned comment was added by 203.173.12.40 (talk • contribs) 12 November 2006.

...dropped the "Benevento" but retained the "Prince". This seems like a telling detail worth the briefest notice in the article. --Wetman 05:12, 16 November 2006 (UTC)
True. 203.173.12.40 10:02, 16 November 2006 (UTC)

[edit] 2 changes that raise concern

[2]: no citation, and the only previous edits by the account Whennessey (talk · contribs) are clearly either vandalism, newbie test, or browser malfunction. I'll leave a note on the user talk page asking for citation, but if none is forthcoming, we should probably revert, since even if these were correct nothing in the previous version would actually have been wrong. - Jmabel | Talk 01:47, 7 December 2006 (UTC)

They might be genuine. From what I've read, Talleyrand was friends with Hamilton, though I don't know any more than that.Foraminifera 16:35, 10 December 2006 (UTC)
Does this mean you intend to track down a citation? - Jmabel | Talk 05:09, 14 December 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Duches of Dino

Should mention be made of Talleyrand alleged affair with the Duchess of Dino, his niece?Can provide sources that make mention of it. —The preceding unsigned comment was added by 64.231.236.170 (talk) 02:47, 4 January 2007 (UTC).

At least on the borderline of worth a mention. Sources added here to the talk page make it an option to add it to the article (whereas without sources, clearly not). - Jmabel | Talk 06:44, 2 March 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Another possible quote

Possibly y'all might want to include another quote:

"Above all, gentlemen, not the slightest zeal."[3]

--Gwern (contribs) 15:53 29 January 2007 (GMT)

Sure. Set it in context, and show how it reveals Talleyrand' style of diplomacy. A list of isolated alleged quotes would not reveal encyclopedic thinking. --Wetman 04:15, 30 January 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Calvino who?

A very recent edit makes reference to a "Calvino," but does not explain who Calvino is. Italo Calvino? The sentence is also not encyclopedic in either form or function. It should be deleted or rewritten. Zeno Izen 20:01, 8 July 2007 (UTC)

  The reference is indeed to Italo Calvino in Panorama Mese, from a blurb on the dustjacket of "The Ruin of Kasch."

[edit] Lousiana Purchase?

Talleyrand was instrumental in the negoations and treaty for the lousiana purchase, arguably the largest land purchase ever. ( 1M sq miles vs Alaska 1/2M Sq Mi. )

"In his preliminary propositions Livingston lightly suggested to Talleyrand a cession of Louisiana to satisfy these claims; following it with the more serious demand that France should pledge observance of the Spanish concession to the Mississippi trade. This pledge Napoleon readily gave."

- http://www.1911encyclopedia.org/Louisiana_Purchase

--Artoftransformation 06:30, 13 October 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Prime Minister?

The infobox says he was the first Prime Minister of France, but this it not dicussed anywhere in the article? That doesn't make any sense! Kevlar67 22:44, 18 October 2007 (UTC)