Talk:Charles I of Austria

The following discussion is an archived debate of the {Template:Type. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made in a new section on the talk page. No further edits should be made to this section.

The result of the debate was no consensus, leaning on don't move. —Nightstallion (?) ^{Seen this already?} 14:09, 22 April 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Requested move

Karl I of Austria → Charles I of Austria - Rationale: The late Emperor Charles of Austria is one of several monarchs who is commonly referred to by an Anglicised name. Typing "Charles I of Austria" - wikipedia into Google yields more results than "Karl I of Austria" - wikipedia. In the effort for and for the sake of consistency, I feel that this page ought to be moved to the Anglicised form of his name as all other Austrian sovereigns are treated, with the exception of Francis Joseph, whom I shall bring up for a requested move. Charles 19:50, 17 April 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Survey

• Support I feel that this move with bring the title into consistency with the greater number of rulers of the Austrian and Holy Roman Empires. Charles 19:55, 17 April 2006 (UTC)
• Oppose See my reasoning on the same question at Franz Joseph I of Austria. john k 21:21, 17 April 2006 (UTC) Neutral (see below) john k 19:11, 18 April 2006 (UTC)
• Oppose same reasoning as John. FearÉIREANN\^(caint) 23:28, 17 April 2006 (UTC)
• Oppose - The argument put forth sounds reasonable, but doesn't address how the proposal complies with the relevant Wikipedia:Naming conventions (use English) Lethiere 22:44, 18 April 2006 (UTC)
• Support Shilkanni 20:50, 19 April 2006 (UTC)
• Weak Oppose "Emperor Karl" may be slightly more common. Septentrionalis 02:04, 20 April 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Discussion

Please see my above comments in the survery and request for move. Thanks. Charles 19:55, 17 April 2006 (UTC)

Responding to the comments of John and Jtdirl above - Franz Joseph seems to be the exception, rather than the rule. There is a much stronger case for the use of Charles in English, from the beatification website to the number of Google hits to the use of Charles in the article for the Hungarian and Bohemian titles (rather than Karol/Carol/Karoly/etc). Charles 00:09, 18 April 2006 (UTC)

We should perhaps resort to looking and seeing what standard textbooks use. I'm open to being convinced to change my mind on this one. john k 02:10, 18 April 2006 (UTC)

I can't easily access a library, however Google Scholar seems to favour Charles over Karl. 18 for Charles of Austria vs 4 for Karl of Austria. Charles I of Austria yields 6 vs 5 for Karl I of Austria. The latter pair is close, but convincing enough to follow English usage in my opinion. Does anyone know where else to look? Charles 02:31, 18 April 2006 (UTC)

I utilized the book search as well: 34 for Charles I of Austria vs 3 for Karl I of Austria and 45 for Emperor Charles of Austria vs 24 for Emperor Karl of Austria. Charles 02:36, 18 April 2006 (UTC)

A lot of the Google Scholar results are from articles more than 50 years old. At that time, Charles was definitely in more common usage. I don't think that's conclusive. In terms of textbooks, John Merriman's A History of Modern Europe, Volume Two: From the French Revolution to the Present, refers to him as Charles. So does Felix Gilbert and David Clay Large's The End of the European Era: 1890 to the Present (5th Edition) Norman Davies's Europe: A History also uses Charles. All are fairly recent. Unfortunately, that's about all I have at hand that is relevant. I'd still like to look at more books, particularly textbooks on Austria specifically but as such, I'm going to withdraw from opposing the move. john k 19:09, 18 April 2006 (UTC)

Charles was also monarch of Hungary, where his name was officially Karoly. And king in other titular kingdoms, too, and of many nations. As I believe the English wikipedia should not be German-centric, I support the neutral name, that is in english. Shilkanni 20:50, 19 April 2006 (UTC)

He is certainly never called Karoly in English. And he is certainly sometimes called Karl in English. Whether he's called Karl or Charles his a matter for debate, but his status in Hungary is completely irrelevant. john k 21:13, 19 April 2006 (UTC)

You mised the point completely. I try in other words: since he was not Karl in his other kingdoms such as Hungary, since all those other nsations used a translation of the name, therefore his name is best to translate into English here. Shilkanni 21:31, 19 April 2006 (UTC)

But this is not how we decide these matters. Septentrionalis 02:04, 20 April 2006 (UTC)

I think the fractured use is unacceptable though. Calling him King Karl of Hungary and Bohemia would be a bit sketchy, but calling him Charles in reference to those kingdoms is okay with Karl in use for Austria? Charles 02:19, 20 April 2006 (UTC)

At the moment, we call him King Karoly of Hungary at the beginning, but just call him Karl thereafter. His role as King of Bohemia was not independent, so there's no more need to mention his Czech name than his Polish, Serbo-Croat, Italian, Slovak, Slovene, or Romanian name. john k 03:27, 20 April 2006 (UTC)

For the sake of "unity" of these different names though, shouldn't the umbrella name Charles, which is arguably common, be applied to this emperor? Charles 03:30, 20 April 2006 (UTC)

As I said above, I'm pretty neutral about a move, but I don't think this is a good argument. We should use the name most commonly used. If that name is Charles (which it may well be), then the article should be moved. If the most common name is Karl, then it should stay where it is, whether or not this detracts from "Habsburg unity" or whatever. But I'm leaning towards moving to Charles just on the basis of common-ness - as far as I can tell, he is called by the English version considerably more frequently than Franz Joseph. john k 06:48, 20 April 2006 (UTC)

The above discussion is preserved as an archive of the debate. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made in a new section on this talk page. No further edits should be made to this section.

The following discussion is an archived discussion of the proposal. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made in a new section on the talk page. No further edits should be made to this section.

The result of the proposal was Move.--Húsönd 01:37, 12 March 2007 (UTC)

Karl I of Austria → Charles I of Austria — The last Emperor of Austria is commonly referred to by the name "Charles". Not only is this name more prevalent online, it is used by the website for his beatification. The last discussed move request seemingly failed because a misunderstanding in the vote (it was not requested because of WP:UE) and one vote in agreement to another which was later withdrawn. Regardless, the use of Charles is prevalent and has the added effect of bringing the names of the emperors into their anglicized forms. Charles 01:48, 6 March 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Survey

Add  # '''Support'''  or  # '''Oppose'''  on a new line in the appropriate section followed by a brief explanation, then sign your opinion using ~~~~. Please remember that this survey is not a vote, and please provide an explanation for your recommendation.

[edit] Survey - in support of the move

1. Support As nominator. Charles 01:48, 6 March 2007 (UTC)
2. Support as best known in English. Gene Nygaard 16:53, 11 March 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Survey - in opposition to the move

[edit] Discussion

Add any additional comments:

The above discussion is preserved as an archive of the debate. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made in a new section on this talk page. No further edits should be made to this section.