Talk:Charbono

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[edit] Name change

I propose that this article is renamed to Corbeau. In the light of the genetic evidence, it makes sense to use the original names, of which Corbeau seems to be the most widely used (eg Jancis Robinson, www.jancisrobinson.com/articles/20070223). Either that, or you go by the name used in the main area where it is grown, and the only one you are likely to see at retail - Bonarda from Argentina. Charbono is just a corruption of an earlier name, used only in one region which only grows 62 acres (compared to 30,000-odd acres in Argentina). It's irrelevant to Wikipedians except in one small corner of the world.

I guess the only other option would be if the evidence for identity with Dolcetto was convincing enough to justify subsuming this article into Dolcetto - has anyone seen a definitive answer to this point? I've seen everything from Corbeau is identical to Dolcetto, they are related, or they may be related. FlagSteward 04:38, 24 March 2007 (UTC)

I haven't seen anything but it is an interesting scenario. Right now I'm partial to Corbeau but I would like to see more info on it. Though ideally, it would be great to incorporate more of that info into the article (with the sources cited, of course). It would help to flesh out the article from being a stub and would probably give a clearer picture of what the article should be named. Agne^Cheese/^Wine 06:13, 24 March 2007 (UTC)

I've had a bit of a poke around on the Dolcetto question. I've not found anything from an authoritative source, but I've seen suggestions that the identity with Dolcetto is probably a translation error - Dolcetto is aka Dolce Nera, which translates to Douce Noir. And apparently there are ampelographic differences between Dolcetto and Corbeau, so at best one is a mutant of the other. On the other hand people have suggested links to Mondeuse and Jurancon Noir (Folle noire, Dame Noire) of the Jura, and to Barbera.

If anyone can come up with authoritative sources for any of the above, that would be great. But for now I suggest we drop the Dolcetto thing and concentrate on naming this article either Bonarda or Corbeau. Having thought about it a bit more, to my mind this is analogous to the Zinfandel situation. The average Wikipedian would 'expect' to find an article on Zinfandel under "Zinfandel", the ampelographic purist would label that article "Crljenak Kaštelanski", and a vocal minority from one winegrowing region (ie Italians) would label it "Primitivo". The equivalents here are Bonarda, Corbeau, and Charbono. Add to the fact that there are at least three names for it in Savoie, and while I could live with Corbeau, my preference would be for naming the article Bonarda.

Of course, that opens up another can of worms, thanks to the other three grapes that get called Bonarda in Italy. The easy option would be to name it Bonarda (Argentina) or some such and leave the current Bonarda page as a disambiguation. But given that the average English-speaking Wikipedian will not see the Italian Bonardas outside a specialist list, whereas they will see Argentine Bonardas in every supermarket (at least in the UK), I would rename this article simply Bonarda with a disambiguation link to the current Bonarda page (which would become Bonarda {disambiguation} ) FlagSteward 13:01, 1 April 2007 (UTC)

Reading the talk page here is like walking into a scene from 1984. You're all Ministry of Truth Winston Smith clones, busily trying to rewrite history. "Let's pretend Charbono doesn't exist! Ya, we'll call it something else and the prolls will never know the difference!"

There are Charbono producers in California and people all over who enjoy Charbono that would probably prefer we not ignore this varietal by calling it something else. This was till the American/Enlgish version of Wiki the last time I looked. You can rename it all day long but people like me know it exists.

It was just a few decades ago that wineries like Inglenook had grande, black tie affairs to celebrate each new Charbono vintage. Just because some of the editors of this article are wholly unfamiliar with the subject does not justify changing the name to something else regardless of where the DNA of the grape came from. What next, change the Zinfandel article name to the grape it calls mom and dad in Italy? Why don't we just erase ANYTHING that is not REALLY big and popular from Wiki.

How about we keep the name Charbono so those people who buy and enjoy Charbono can learn more about it. If you're going to write about Charbono I think you'd be wise to know something about it, especilly before you start debating what to rename the Charbono article. And calling Charbono high in tannins? WTF? Has the editor who wrote that ever tasted a Charbono? I buy and drink at least a case a year with friends and no one who's had any at my home has ever described it as tannic. Rich, velvety, bold, but I've never heard the term tannic, and we generally drink it within one or two years of its release (young, when most wines are often tannic). Do you even know what tannic means and what causes it? Have any of you debating what to reneame this article ever even had a Charbono? Can you name one producer?

There is probably less than 100 acres of planted Charbono in the USA and you guys want to kill the name? We'll just pretend it doesn't exist? Do you propose we do the same with Zinfandel, after all over in Italy it's called something else too. Do you hate all wine or just Charbono and those who produce it? or maybe you just hate wines that are not popular.

Charbono exists in the USA, I buy some every year, I can prove it. The label clearly says "Charbono" and clearly was produced in the United States Of America, California to be exact. I don't give a damn what they drink in Argentina, this is an article about Charbono is it not? People drink it and my favorite producer runs out in a matter of weeks each year. It is highly prized. How many of you Charbono experts have ever had any of this "highly tannic" nectar on your lips? Ever had an aged (10 year) Charbono? Of course not.

"Irrelevant to wikipedians except in one small corner of the world" What a strange comment to make. Charbobno is relevant to ALL Charbono drinkers and to anyone who appreciates varietals. Crazy talk. - A wino in Texas —Preceding unsigned comment added by 199.233.178.253 (talk) 20:43, 13 September 2007 (UTC)

Look - noone's saying that Charbono doesn't exist or whatever Aunt Sally you're trying to set up. But with something like 30,000 acres of Bonarda in Argentina and <100 acres in California (from memory), the Argentine name is the one that most people will come across - even in the US, I would guess that more Argentine "Charbono" is drunk than Californian. Try reading WP:CSB some time. And yes thanks, I have drunk this variety, including examples from Argentina and Savoie - have you? FlagSteward 18:05, 5 October 2007 (UTC)

[edit] free Charbono lessons (get em quick before the wine experts erase Charbono from the article)

http://www.cal-italia.org/varietals/charbono.html

http://wine.appellationamerica.com/grape-varietal/Charbono.html

http://www.sallys-place.com/beverages/wine/charbono.htm

Oh my even Turley is bottling a Charbono! —Preceding unsigned comment added by 199.233.178.253 (talk) 23:08, 13 September 2007 (UTC)

And I noted in those three articles, no one mentioned "tannic" or acidic like the Wiki article does. Hhmmm...Sorry to be such a snot but I loath wine Nazis and POV pushers. You guys might want to try a bottle some time, you know, educate yourself. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 199.233.178.253 (talk) 23:14, 13 September 2007 (UTC)