Talk:Characters of Final Fantasy VIII

From Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

A summary of this article appears in Final Fantasy VIII.

This is the talk page for discussing improvements to the Characters of Final Fantasy VIII article.
Article policies
Archives: 1
Maintained The following user(s) are actively contributing to this article and may be able to help with questions about verification and sources:
Deckiller (talk) • Axem Titanium (talk)
This in no way implies article ownership; all editors are encouraged to contribute.
Featured article star Characters of Final Fantasy VIII is a featured article; it (or a previous version of it) has been identified as one of the best articles produced by the Wikipedia community. Even so, if you can update or improve it, please do.
Featured topic star Characters of Final Fantasy VIII is part of the "Final Fantasy VIII" series (project page), a featured topic identified as among the best series of articles produced by the Wikipedia community. If you can update or improve it, please do.
Archive
Archives


Contents

[edit] Rewrite

The rewrite is complete. Teggles has added a merchandise section, which has potential to be a good couple paragraphs of great out of universe info. Back when the character section of the FF8 article was extremely large, it had details on individual characters; those have been added. — Deckiller 04:46, 14 March 2007 (UTC)

Is it possible that the FFXII Character List could also be done in the same way? Bluerです。 なにか? 08:32, 14 March 2007 (UTC)
Definitely. By the way, I re-added the spoiler tag, since we still haven't come to the consensus if we can exclude them from the "not so obvious" articles yet (although we can probably sneak a total ban into the manual of style). — Deckiller 16:26, 14 March 2007 (UTC)
In that case, we'll start out with references - in-game dialogs, just like this page had. Impressive listing by the way. I'd do it, but I have exams coming up so maybe I'll drop in some time. Bluerです。 なにか? 08:06, 15 March 2007 (UTC)
Sounds good. — Deckiller 16:22, 15 March 2007 (UTC)

Let me clarify in case anyone has doubts about this just being a list expansion: this is a brand new article that combines elements from an old version of the FF8 article, expanded and rewritten informtion from each character article, the character list for the minor characters, and brand new sections. I just moved the character list over to this name to make less redirects, but it is still more or less a brand new, integrated article. — Deckiller 14:16, 17 March 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Laguna as Squalls dad

i know it's mentioned in the main article of squall, but shouldn't it be put on this page as well? —The preceding unsigned comment was added by Jammi568 (talk • contribs) 08:41, 14 March 2007 (UTC).

It's hinted at enough so that it doesn't appear to be original research. — Deckiller 16:23, 14 March 2007 (UTC)
Here's the line: After Raine dies, her child (implied by Ward and Kiros to be Squall), along with Ellone, is sent to an orphanage.. — Deckiller 16:26, 14 March 2007 (UTC)

but shouldn't we put that on the Squall bit as well? Because i'm sure more people are going to be looking for him then some unimportant character who's briefly mentioned and seen at the beginning of the second disk. Jammi568 08:35, 16 March 2007 (UTC)

This article presents an overview of a major character. Notice how Squall and Rinoa's sections are merely a paragraph each. Further details go in the main articles for the character. For something like the theory of Laguna being Squall's dad, it's more appropriate to just have it in the main article. Bhamv 12:33, 16 March 2007 (UTC)
That'd be fine if Laguna had a main article anymore! Seems it's been deleted. --MimiSard 15:58, 29 March 2007 (UTC)
I just noticed the article does mention the father-son speculation in Laguna's section: After Raine dies, her child (who Ward and Kiros imply to be Squall in a conversation aboard the Ragnarok) and Ellone are sent to an orphanage. Bhamv 08:56, 30 March 2007 (UTC)

okay, that's fine then, i just thought we should explore all avenues Jammi568 14:47, 16 March 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Differences with other Final Fantasy game character pages

Clearly this is more than a list of characters, but I am curious as to why the extra information is not in the main Final Fantasy VIII article so this could be moved to List of Final Fantasy VIII characters in order to be consistent across the series. Is there a discussion of this anywhere? QmunkE 21:12, 14 March 2007 (UTC)

The main article is already a featured article that would be too long if much of this information is transferred. See WP:FICT. If nothing else, I would prefer that all FF articles were more like this one, as this is much better than the simple list it was previously. Peptuck 21:37, 14 March 2007 (UTC)
The others will be following suit, although they might have less out of universe information available. The main article essensially adopts summary style; details on how the cast was created were trimmed significantly on the main article for it to adhere to FA standards, and yesterday I dug them up, along with some new info, to provide more out of universe information for this article. Wikipedia has come to the point where it does not allow articles to be merely plot summaries, so those other lists will need to conform to this style. — Deckiller 21:49, 14 March 2007 (UTC)

[edit] GA nom

Hi; I'd like to nominate this article for GA status, but we still need sources for the kingdom hearts claims. Does anyone have the game manual? If not, I can use the website and/or script cites. — Deckiller 01:07, 15 March 2007 (UTC)

I have the KH manual (as well as the KH2 manual). What do you need, specifically? I also have access to the Jiminy Journals (equivalent to the Clan Primer of FFXII, I suppose) of both games, if it comes to that. I'll copyedit and proofread tomorrow when I'm not dead tired. Axem Titanium 04:13, 15 March 2007 (UTC)
Actually, never mind; the KH info has been cited. Looking forward to that proofread. — Deckiller 05:04, 15 March 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Merchandise image?

Anyone think an image of a set of action figures or something like that might fly in the merchandise section to illustrate it? — Deckiller 18:29, 15 March 2007 (UTC)

[1]? Kariteh 19:00, 15 March 2007 (UTC)
That might work. — Deckiller 19:01, 15 March 2007 (UTC)
On second thought, I found an image of various FF8 pencaps; that might fit the section more. — Deckiller 19:04, 15 March 2007 (UTC)

[edit] GA pass

I have reviewed this article for GA criteria and passed it! The article has a good lead section, good information, and good references. The images seem to illustrate the article well. It is also stable looking at the history. I can't think of areas to improve so I recommend Peer Review and possibly nominating for Featured status soon. Funpika 22:56, 20 March 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Copyediting discussion

Against instinct, I removed a reference in Irvine's section because I felt it didn't really contribute anything outside of plot. Also, I was going to rearrange Edea's section but I'd like some input first. As it is now, it talks about her in the order that it is revealed in game (roughly). I was wondering if it would be better to rearrange it so it fits within the chronology of the game, like it is with the other characters' sections. Also, I've been looking at the game's script but I'd like to know if I can't add any more stuff that Zell and Selphie did that could be put into their "role in the game" paragraph. As of right now, theirs' seem small compared to the others'. Axem Titanium 01:52, 21 March 2007 (UTC)

The information should be presented as it appears in the game to adhere to an out of universe perspective. I agree that Selphie and Zell should have some more details. — Deckiller 03:42, 21 March 2007 (UTC)
I gave the article a quick trimming. I think it still needs work, namely in section standardization and prose tweaks, before we can submit it for FAC. — Deckiller 00:35, 22 March 2007 (UTC)
"Editors of Electronic Gaming Monthly (2004). Final Fantasy VIII PS Review. 1UP.com. Retrieved on March 15, 2007."
This link appears to be broken. Has it been moved somewhere else on the site or shall we link to a Wayback Machine archive? Kariteh 18:26, 24 March 2007 (UTC)
Fixed; found the same review on findarticles.com. — Deckiller 18:33, 24 March 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Featured

The article has been featured! — Deckiller 05:18, 30 March 2007 (UTC)

Woot! Break out the champagne! Awesome work, Deckiller! :D Peptuck 05:42, 30 March 2007 (UTC)
Congrats man. Kudos to you. :) Bhamv 05:44, 30 March 2007 (UTC)
And Axem, Teggles, and everyone as well! Thanks guys :) — Deckiller 06:02, 30 March 2007 (UTC)
Great job. We're awesome. Congrats, yo! Axem Titanium 19:01, 30 March 2007 (UTC)
Good job, guys! We are so awesome and thanks for helping me out on the FFXII article to FA status. Kudos to all of you and any comments? Sjones23 21:04, 4 April 2007 (UTC)
Yes, congratulations on a job well done. Bluerです。 なにか? 21:55, 4 April 2007 (UTC)
Good job, awesome work, and kudos to you, Deckiller! I am working on improving the FFX character article and you can see my improvements here. Sjones23 19:54, 12 April 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Something strange

From the article's introduction:

"Thirteen weeks after its release, Final Fantasy VIII had earned more than US$50 million in sales,[1][2] making it the fastest selling Final Fantasy title."

However, the 2 notes say nothing about $50 million (especially considering they're dated from 1999, far from 13 weeks after the game's release). Is this a problem of reference or am I just not understanding something? Kariteh 12:41, 31 March 2007 (UTC)

Notice that the supposed link of the second reference was redirected to a different article? Edit: I've placed the correct link. Bluerです。 なにか? 13:08, 31 March 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Cid looks like...

Does Cid remind anyone else of Robin Williams?

Is that at all relevant to an encyclopedia article? Bhamv 16:09, 27 May 2007 (UTC)
It's not, more of a POV. We'll never know if Nomura really had Mr Williams in mind when he designed Cid. — Bluerです。 なにか? 16:25, 27 May 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Character order

I'm not exactly sure why some anon changed the order of the characters, nor why it wasn't changed back afterwards, but I'm reverting it now. There is no real reason why some random strategy guide should trump the official manual included with the game. Axem Titanium 19:15, 5 July 2007 (UTC)

Especially since the prose is written to introduce things in that order to avoid redundant retelling and confusion. Not sure why the order was changed either. — Deckiller 19:18, 5 July 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Problems with this article

This featured article is used as an example for other fiction articles, but it's not that great. The main problem with it is that it downplays the fact these are characters in a game. Reading it, it could easily be an article about a comic or anime, if not for the occasional use of the word 'game'. Specifically:

  • No screenshots, just CGI and concept art.
  • Little discussion of how the characters are used in-game. Do they have any differences apart from their weapons and limit break? When they join the player's party is only described in in-universe terms.
  • The party system used in the FF games isn't discussed here, nor in the main FFVIII article.

Other problems:

  • The article is too reliant on one source, FLAREgamer, for out-of-universe information.
  • It's misleading to put Edea and Siefer in the playable character category, they're mostly used as bosses.
  • The first sentence in the second paragraph of the intro has five (!) semicolons.
  • Using surnames for character sections is in-universe.

--Nydas(Talk) 19:19, 18 July 2007 (UTC)

The focus of this supplementary article is discussion of the characters, not gameplay. That is discussed in the main FFVIII article. Including such information would break this article's focus. With regards to the party system, what's there to talk about? I don't think it's remarkably different from any other RPG. For FLAREgamer, a source is a source is a source. Take it or leave it. Finding sources is no easy task and you have to work with what you've got. Edea and Seifer can be moved if necessary. The sentence in question could be broken up into multiple sentences but that would just be choppy. If you have a better way of arranging it, be my guest. I see no real problems with it though. After all, using semicolons to separate items in a list is still correct English. I don't really understand what you're trying to say for that last point. Axem Titanium 04:24, 20 July 2007 (UTC)
Axem hits the nail on the head. Semicolons are common in lists with multiple commas. Seifer and Edea are main characters, as well as playable, so it is logical to include them in that section. I also do not understand your last point (surnames?). Describing how characters can be used in-game can be considered gameguide, which is not allowed. Besdies, the characters' stats are practically identical anyway, and are modified by the junction system; what is presented in this article are the major differences. That information is described in the gameplay section of the main article. Character subarticles for games are for the most part treated like characters of any other fiction medium (discussing their role in the plot, their development, their critical response, and any essensial game information). Also, I'm confused with your interpretation of "in-universe"—do you think that every sentence should include the words "fiction" and "in the game"? — Deckiller 05:13, 20 July 2007 (UTC)

Pretty much just going to agree with what's already been said; the article is a supplement to the main article about the game. It presents just about all the relevant data regarding the FFVIII characters without treading into gameguide territory, especially considering that there is very little in game terms to differentiate the individual characters other than their individual limits and weapons. The basic fact is that FFVIII is a storyline-driven game with characters that don't have much difference from one another in game terms.

If you have a problem with FLAREgamer, feel free to find other citable sources from third party sources. How is it misleading to put Edea and Seifer in the playable characters section? They are playable characters, and main ones to boot. The article makes a distinction regarding the fact that they are antagonists for most of the game anyway. As for the use of surnames....huh? I don't get how that is in-universe; should we remove the surname from the Anakin Skywalker article for being too "in-universe"? It isn't in-universe to list the character's entire name. Peptuck 05:51, 20 July 2007 (UTC)

Indeed. As far as FLAREgamer goes, I haven't seen any other complaints. The site has an editorial staff and cites its sources (interviews and whatnot, that are unfortunately not translated). It has been used in no fewer than five or six FACs (and not a single issue). — Deckiller 05:56, 20 July 2007 (UTC)
Anakin Skywalker is quite an inadequate example. I think what Nydas meant is that the surnames are never used in the game and only in secondary sources, unlike Skywalker which is used extensively in both the Star Wars movies and the Expanded Universe. It's a kind of a blurry issue on Wikipedia as a whole though; there are tons of debates like this in fighting game articles (for instance Rolento vs. Rolento F. Schugerg, or the classic E. Honda vs. Edmond Honda). In any case, as long as Wikipedia as a whole doesn't establish a common guideline about this, this FF article is fine with the surnames in the section titles. It passed Feature Article rather recently and nobody had complained about the surnames. Kariteh 07:02, 20 July 2007 (UTC)
FLAREgamer's article is based on their interviews with Squaresoft staff, but also Ultimania, V-Jump and Famitsu. In reality the FLAREgamer source encompasses four sources. I will contact the owner is this is a problem. --Teggles 08:01, 20 July 2007 (UTC)
However, there do need to be in-game screenshots. They are characters in a video game. If they were just illustrations, it might be a bit more acceptable. In addition, the party system needs to be explained in the Final Fantasy VIII. Other than that, I don't believe there are any problems. --Teggles 08:20, 20 July 2007 (UTC)
Hmm, I think that's a reasonable compromise, if we can find screenshots of the characters (or at least their in-game graphics). We can add the FF8 girls sketch to the creation section, and leave the fujin/raijin sketch. A sentence or two clarifying the party system in the gameplay section of the main article seems fine as well. — Deckiller 08:37, 20 July 2007 (UTC)

Using surnames which seldom (never?) appear in the game is an example of undue weight being given to an in-universe perspective. Fictional characters often have seldom-used middle names; this is basically the same situation. That the player can rename many of the characters is far more important than their surnames.

Keeping Seifer and Edea in the playable characters category is a mistake. As written now, readers may get the impression that you can play Seifer as a bad guy, for example. It gives undue weight to the small fragments of the game where they are available as playable characters. Put them into a bosses section.

I do not agree that 'gameguide' material should shunted aside in favour of in-universe minutae such as Zell liking hotdogs or Laguna wanting to be a journalist. There is plenty of gameplay information that could be expanded without verging on gameguide stuff. That characters don't differ much is important in itself, as it is a departure from the FF norm and other games of this type. Some of the limit breaks hark back to previous FF games, surely that is relevant?

I'd replace the character portraits with character screenshots, it's much more important to show how they were implemented in the game proper than in the manual or the pause screen. The article notes the use of realistic proportions and body language; neither of which is apparent from the images.--Nydas(Talk) 11:00, 20 July 2007 (UTC)

"Limit Breaks hark back to previous FF games". You need references for stuff like that. Care to provide? Also, I think the images in use a just fine. They are uniform and of a decent size. And the images are there to give a visual reference of the character -that is to say- what they look like, that's all. There's nothing wrong with them. As for Seifer and Edea, their respective descriptions should merely mention that they are only playable in minor segments. Nevertheless, they are in the correct category as they are, regardless of length, playable. Gamer Junkie 13:12, 20 July 2007 (UTC)
The mention of a surname, and no further, is not "undue weight". The last name is used throughout game manuals, game guides and promotional material. It's not used often in the game because it's not exactly commonplace to say your last name in an informal environment. --Teggles 13:23, 20 July 2007 (UTC)

I don't see how surname usage is giving undue weight to the in-universe perspective. The character's entire name is certainly of greater value to the general audience than some in-game minutae, and several of the characters' last names are mentioned extensively - FFS, one wouldn't even get part of the ending without knowing Laguna's last name. And to be blunt, I tyhink its taking the out-of-universe mentality way too far when one starts knocking out a character's surame. WP:FICT does not place emphasis on the "weight" of in-universe and out-of-universe material; it places emphasis on approaching things from an encyclopedic perspective and specifying that the character(s) are fictional entities and approaching them thusly. I fail to see how including their canonical surnames detracts from this.

Just because they are onlyplayable for a short period does not change the fact that they are playable characters, and lumping them in a bosses section in many ways doesn't do them proper justice either, as both Edea and Seifer are more than simple boss characters or antagonists. Besides, all it takes is a single clarifying sentence to deal with that issue regarding Seifer, which I just put in. Bam. Issue dealt with.

The lack of differences between each character in gameplay terms pretty much rules much of anything regarding gameplay content. Hasn't that already been handled in the main article anyway? One cannot put weight on something that isn't even there in the first place. As formentioning the lack of differences, a couple of sentences in the introduction should suffice - which, incidentally, should also mention other Final Fantasy games, like VII, where characters are not differentiated much in gameplay terms.

I agree that we should include some screenshots, but character artwork works well, too. A single cutscene or in-game screenshot depicting the characters would suffice, in my opinion, to show what they look like in-game. Peptuck 13:28, 20 July 2007 (UTC)

Even one really isn't necessary. This article branches from the Final Fantasy VIII article, which already has screenshots of the characters in gameplay. It's redundant here. Gamer Junkie 13:33, 20 July 2007 (UTC)
Screenshots are necessary to depict the realistic proportions and body language used in FFVIII. As it stands, the five main articles (main, characters, world, Squall, Rinoa) use 2 screenshots, 1 in-game character shot, 1 box cover, 1 map, 8 cutscenes and 16 pieces of artwork. That's not an accurate way to depict a video game.
Wikipedia:Naming conventions (common names) says to use common names for things. The spirit of this guideline applies to list articles like this one. The player can change the names of the main characters, but it doesn't let you change the surnames because they're rarely used (if at all).--Nydas(Talk) 15:22, 20 July 2007 (UTC)
This isn't depicting a video game; it's depicting the characters of a video game. Adding screenshots would just be a stylistic thing, and I'm sure the majority agrees that the art better depicts the characters. Screenshots are better suited to the main article.
The common name goes with article naming rather than section naming. Even then, using it to remove last names is quite pointless. The point is to allow the reader to identify something. "Squall" is no less identifiable than "Squall Leonhart" in the context of this game. If it were "Squallius Joseph Leonhart" or something like that, you'd have a point. TTN 15:44, 20 July 2007 (UTC)
As I have said before, the portraits hide the use of realistic proportions and body language central to the game's aesthetics. Screenshots would show these, as well as their clothing and weapons. It's a question of comprehensiveness, not just style.
We shouldn't be making judgements that using seldom/never-used surnames don't hinder readers. Having to read twice as many words to find the section you want is arguably a hinderance in itself. The official site uses first names in their character list, with the character's full name appearing in their section, which is what this article should do.--Nydas(Talk) 16:47, 20 July 2007 (UTC)
If I can make a suggestion about charcater names, as it stands now is redundant, as the name is mentioned at the heading and again in the first line. It'd be better to put the in-game name as the heading, with the full name in the first line. So it'd be -

Squall

Squall Leonhart (スコール・レオンハート, Sukōru Reonhāto?) is the primary protagonist... etc. ~ JohnnyMrNinja {talk} 16:41, 20 July 2007 (UTC)

I support this.--Nydas(Talk) 16:47, 20 July 2007 (UTC)
I can agree with that as well. On the other hand, the use of realistic proportions can be sufficiently portrayed with only one in-game screenshot. Showing what the characters look like (arguably, the main focus of this article) must be done with multiple images like it is now (unless a big clunky group shot can be found). Axem Titanium 18:12, 20 July 2007 (UTC)
I made that change yesterday, but it was reverted. That's not to say I wanted the change. --Teggles 00:13, 21 July 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Problems part 2

In terms of gameplay information, I can't really see much more to add with respect to the individual characters. We could mention that Blue Magic has been used in previous games, or that Zell's Duel is similar to Sabin's special attack in FF6, but that's basically it. As for the screenshots, I think one in the creation section would definitely help show those proportions and whatnot (and complement the FMV graphics). For fair use balance, we can probably ditch the Fujin/Raijin pic. — Deckiller 18:50, 20 July 2007 (UTC)

Awww, but I like that pic. If anyone, you can remove the Ward and Kiros pics, but that's probably POV. At any rate, I think the number of pictures in the article is fine; you already removed a great number of them last time someone complained. Axem Titanium 20:33, 20 July 2007 (UTC)
This article is already FA. The images and descriptions are not in conflict with anything other than the personal opinions of this user. We don't need to bend over backwards or lower the quality of the article in any way based on this. I also don't believe the character's proportions are central to anything. The difference between Resident Evil and Resident Evil 4's gameplay was central to its description, FFVIII was just a change to realistically proportioned characters and that's about all there was to it. It would need only a sentence to explain this, which is no doubt already in the main article. Gamer Junkie 03:09, 21 July 2007 (UTC)
They are not in conflict with "the personal opinions of this user", they are in potential conflict with some logical reasons and arguments that need to be addressed. And FA status doesn't equal to eternal perfection. I believe Seifer and Edea should be moved to the "Other major characters" section, because that's what they truly are. The first section is titled "Main playable characters", not simply "Playable characters". One would think there is a reason for that. Kariteh 06:58, 21 July 2007 (UTC)
These aren't serious problems, this is hair-splitting at best. You want real problems that need fixing? Head over to List of F.E.A.R. characters & organizations, or List of Resident Evil creatures. You'll find plenty of real problems that you can help with there. Gamer Junkie 08:27, 21 July 2007 (UTC)
Yes, other stuff exist, and they have absolutely no relevance towards this article. If you want to improve these articles, feel free. In the meantime, there are people concerned about improving this article. Kariteh 10:04, 21 July 2007 (UTC)
Like I said, this is just splitting hairs. There's nothing wrong with this article by Wikipedia's standards, only people's personal beliefs regarding what they think would work better. This is counterproductive and time consuming (just look at the size of this discussion) and should be avoided. The articles above are so badly in need of maintenance and out of line with Wikipedia's standards that everybody here would universally agree on what needs doing. We'd be much more productive to the project by focusing on articles like those above, rather than arguing out each and every tiny little detail on an article which is one hundred times above the standard of what actually needs doing. But this isn't my article and I've got other things to do, just thought I'd try to get the focus where it's needed most. Gamer Junkie 10:56, 21 July 2007 (UTC)
Well, it swings both ways. Gamer is correct in that too much effort is wasted splitting hairs, and that many Wikipedians need to get their priorities straight. This is the best cast of characters article on Wikipedia (with nothing to really compare), but it's always good to fine tune it when it's setting an example. However, there is a thing called overcompensation (which should be avoided). — Deckiller 11:35, 21 July 2007 (UTC)
Wikipedia is maintained by voluntary, unpaid persons, and nobody can force them to work on B if they're interested in working on A. Seifer and Edea are not "main" playable characters, it's a simple fact. Kariteh 13:29, 21 July 2007 (UTC)
Just name the section Playable Characters and be done with it. Oh, and don't forget to mention that Edea and Seifer are playable albeit temporarily.— Blue。 13:31, 21 July 2007 (UTC)
Okay, done. If Gamer Junkie or someone else still disagrees, feel free to revert the edit and voice your reasoning. Kariteh 13:36, 21 July 2007 (UTC)

I don't disagree with that change, as I wouldn't consider it -or the other concerns raised during this discussion- to be genuinely necessary one way or the other. Honestly, I doubt people would notice the difference that last change made, Kariteh, even those who visit this article often. Your efforts could be much more helpful in Characters of Final Fantasy V or Characters of Final Fantasy VI, for example, if you prefer to stick with FF projects. But you are right, it's your choice, so continue here if you really believe the article needs work. Gamer Junkie 02:42, 22 July 2007 (UTC)

Thinking back on it, I believe the screenshots were removed due to formatting and legal reasons. I like the idea of taking a screenshot of several characters on screen and adding that to the concept and creation section. The surnames issue seems to be an overcompensation. The characters are named "Squall Leonhart", etc. Why change the section headings just because their last names aren't included in most menus for the game? They're included in the manual, the dialogue, etc. However, I don't mind either way, as it's a minor, subjective, and stylistic change. — Deckiller 06:35, 22 July 2007 (UTC)

There's a scene in... a basketball field in Trabia Garden I think, where the complete party are present and discuss about the orphanage and their lost memories. All the main PCs are present in that scene so it would make a good screenshot for the article. Kariteh 07:41, 22 July 2007 (UTC)
Yeah, I was thinking the same thing. The only bad thing is that it's 20 hours into the game (maybe less if one is doing a speedrun). Maybe I'll take a trip down memory lane and play it... — Deckiller 08:22, 22 July 2007 (UTC)
How often are the surnames included in any menu or dialogue? Are they used more than once in the manual?--Nydas(Talk) 14:42, 22 July 2007 (UTC)
Indeed, surnames again. To the best of my memory, none of the characters have been referred to using their surnames. But what is the problem? Is this problem going to give quite an inconvenience to the target - the readers? — Blue。 14:50, 22 July 2007 (UTC)
According to Shotgunnova's FFVIII script at GameFAQs, the game mentions
  • Loire twice
  • Trepe 8 times
  • Dincht 8 times
  • Kinneas 13 times
  • Kramer 4 times
  • None of the other PC's surnames
Of course, the script was not dumped from the discs but written by hand, and Shotgunnova admits that it's uncomplete. Kariteh 14:53, 22 July 2007 (UTC)
As stated above, it is purely a stylistic thing. It has absolutely nothing to do with it being game guide material or cruft, and it doesn't detract anything from the article. Seeing as the majority feels that it better helps the readers, it is best to just drop the topic. TTN 14:58, 22 July 2007 (UTC)
I agree, purely aesthetics. The topic should be dropped, lest we be ruining this article. — Blue。 15:04, 22 July 2007 (UTC)
The names which never appear in the game itself are of questionable canonicity. Some of them are in the manual, but what about Kiros and Ward's second names? How do we know they're not just fanon?--Nydas(Talk) 20:22, 22 July 2007 (UTC)
That's when an official publication is helpful. The Brady Games guide and Ultimania proves helpful. Try this for Kiros Seagill and this for Ward Zabac. — Blue。 20:47, 22 July 2007 (UTC)
That's the equivalent of a Star Wars technical manual. It's like calling the X-wing the Incom T65 X-wing in articles and nav templates.--Nydas(Talk) 08:19, 23 July 2007 (UTC)
But it proves the name is not fanon. By the way, what IS the problem? — Blue。 10:52, 23 July 2007 (UTC)
I think the possible problem is which name is more common between (for instance) "Kiros" and "Kiros Seagill". Kinda like how "Balthier" is more common than "Ffamram Mid Bunansa" even though it's not a complete name. Kariteh 12:06, 23 July 2007 (UTC)
(kickback indent) I think that's apples and oranges. "Balthier" as a name has no last name since it's his pseudonym but it's his most common name so it remains Balthier. It would be more complicated if his most common name was "Ffamram Mid Bunansa" because the line would be blurry as to whether or not to include the middle name in the header or whatever. In the end though, they both achieve the same purpose and the difference is only aesthetic. I think it's time to drop it since it's getting so trivial. No need to pick a fight over a featured article, is there? Axem Titanium 23:12, 23 July 2007 (UTC)
I agree. I'm very concerned with the amount of time being wasted on this talkpage. Wikipedia will benefit better if this time is used to improve articles. — Deckiller 23:27, 23 July 2007 (UTC)
Hear hear! I recommend improving Characters of Final Fantasy Tactics or Characters of Final Fantasy Tactics Advance, at the least! — Blue。 01:32, 24 July 2007 (UTC)
Since this article is used as a example on Wikipedia:Notability (fiction) and Wikipedia:Manual of Style (writing about fiction), it should be as good as possible. As it stands, it encourages the use of artwork over screenshots and the use of 'full names' over in-game names. If you don't want this article to be in the spotlight, don't use it as an example on the fiction guidelines.--Nydas(Talk) 08:30, 24 July 2007 (UTC)
I believe we all still agree that a game screenshot (or several) of the characters needs to be added; it was mostly referring to this surname discussion, which is a subjective matter. It doesn't help to enhance an out-of-universe perspective, because these are the characters' actual names. Removing surnames makes more sense for just the characters whose last names aren't mentioned in the game or the manual, like Kiros and Ward. — Deckiller 08:44, 24 July 2007 (UTC)
If I might add, full names are supposed to be used when introducing readers to characters, especially under formal circumstances like this. If anything, the full names should remain in the headers and the initial use of the name in the description should use only first names instead. But even this is hardly necessary. Gamer Junkie 09:09, 24 July 2007 (UTC)
These are made-up characters. They don't have actual names like real people do. The lack of their surnames isn't down to informality, it's down to the writers making it that way.--Nydas(Talk) 09:46, 24 July 2007 (UTC)
The fact that they are fictional is irrelevant. The developers have given these characters surnames and that makes them legitimate and relevant to the article. Moreso considering the article in question entirely regards said characters. Gamer Junkie 10:03, 24 July 2007 (UTC)
There could be any number of reasons why their last names are not included in the game menus and whatnot. Space restrictions (very tight with Japanese translations; just look at Final Fantasy VII and Suikoden), simplicity, etc. However, most of these surnames are included in the game manual, so most of these main characters have surnames created by the designers. WRT Kiros and Ward, I don't see their surnames used in any Final Fantasy VIII reference (manual, game, etc), so I could settle for their surnames being removed from the headings (and maybe with a sentence explaining that they were given the surnames in the official strategy guide). It ruins the parallel structure of the section, but if more people show a dislike for these surnames, then it would be a fair settlement. — Deckiller 11:11, 24 July 2007 (UTC)
Agreeing with Deckiller and Gamer Junkie here. The fact that they are fictional doesn't matter; these characters have official, canonical surnames, many of which are repeatedly mentioned in-game, and should be referenced in the article as such. Peptuck 12:15, 24 July 2007 (UTC)
The idea that we need to use the 'official' surnames of made-up people more commonly known by their first names is terribly in-universe. They weren't born, they won't die, their surnames could be changed in a remake or sequel. The reason their surnames are seldom used in-game is to support the name-editing feature. The designers were more interested in making that work than using surnames. The FFVIII website doesn't use surnames for navigation. --Nydas(Talk) 14:15, 24 July 2007 (UTC)
Aerith. ♫ Melodia Chaconne ♫ 14:30, 24 July 2007 (UTC)
(kickback indent) If you have some kind of grudge or prejudice against the article (or the people who defend it), just say it. You don't have to nitpick about some detail for the sake of making an argument. Are you trying to get the surnames removed for some reason? Regardless of how "in-universe" they are, they must still be mentioned. Axem Titanium 15:08, 24 July 2007 (UTC)
I don't object to the surnames being used in the character sections, just the way they're used in section headings and the intro. It gives a misleading impression that the surnames are extensively used in the game.--Nydas(Talk) 15:22, 24 July 2007 (UTC)
This debate is totally unrelated to FFVIII, in fact. We could be replacing all instances of "Kiros Seagill" with "Edmond Honda" in this talk page. This topic is an issue whose solution seems like it should apply to all fictional character articles rather than just one, since discussion about it happens every now and then (see Talk:E. Honda and co.). Since you've already opened a discussion on the general page Wikipedia talk:WikiProject Video games, I suggest the debate continues over there (or maybe on WP:WAF or something) rather than here. The result of the debate would hopefully become a policy that we'll be happy to apply on all relevant articles. Kariteh 15:32, 24 July 2007 (UTC)
Heads up to this WP:VG MoS guideline about character names, fyi. Axem Titanium 02:06, 25 July 2007 (UTC)
Guideline about character names that appear in-game, which is not what Nydas is debating. Kariteh 07:39, 25 July 2007 (UTC)
It also might cause some concerns with this article; just about every other character except Squall has their last name pop up in-game, but it would look rather strange for Squall to be listed in the article minus his surname, and honestly, I don't see a good point behind leaving it out when it is a canonical and relatively well-known name. Its a guideline, but guidelines, like everything else on Wikipedia, are not hard and fast rules. WP:IAR and all that. Peptuck 09:34, 25 July 2007 (UTC)

If there was a problem with the surnames, this article never would have passed the FA check to begin with. That's it. No more. Let's end this nonsense, please. Gamer Junkie 09:47, 25 July 2007 (UTC)

Kariteh is right that the debate is really beyond this page, although as an example article this is going to encourage people to flip through manuals and strategy guides to find the 'real' names of made-up people. That it passed FA is not a sign of eternal perfection.--Nydas(Talk) 11:01, 25 July 2007 (UTC)
You make it sound as if it's a bad thing for people to do that? ♫ Melodia Chaconne ♫ 11:37, 25 July 2007 (UTC)
It is a bad thing, just like X-wing redirecting to Incom T-65 X-wing would be a bad thing. Assuming that seldom/never-used surnames are important enough to name the article or section after is in-universe. It's inaccurate, since it treats fictional people as if they're real, and misleading, since it implies that these surnames are commonly used in-game.--Nydas(Talk) 12:03, 25 July 2007 (UTC)
Why are you still on this? These are last names; that's it. We are not changing "Jack" to "Count Jauke van Burg of Nimbleton." That would be an in-universe title that really detracts from the readers ability to comprehend the article. Changing it to "Jack Smith" doesn't hurt anyone and it can only help. It is up to the editors to decide if they want them or not, and the editors have decided. TTN 15:21, 25 July 2007 (UTC)

Actually, it seems Nydas has a lot of valid points in this debate, because what he said is backed up by this statement from the VG manual of style:"full names should be used for video game character article namespaces when they appear in-game. Otherwise the common name should be used." Kiros Seagill, Ward Zabac, etc. are last names that don't appear in-game, so according to the manual of style, the common names Kiros, Ward, etc. should be used for the titles. Kariteh 10:04, 16 September 2007 (UTC)

Then by all means, have a go at it. — Blue。 16:57, 16 September 2007 (UTC)
I feel that it should be consistent. If we get rid of the last names in the section headings, we get rid of all of them, while leaving the full names in the prose. Axem Titanium 18:19, 16 September 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Merge

Although it might not look like it at first glance, Rinoa Heartilly has really nothing to define an article. It's just a one-game character, and as such it is better to integrate the tiny development and reception bits into the main article. Only the second half of the development paragraph directly concerns Rinoa; the first half is just a generic bit about the female characters of the game. Similarly, the first paragraph of the reception section is just a generic comment about Rinoa and Squall's relationship; only the second paragraph is about Rinoa herself, and that second paragraph is just two small sentences that fit in two lines. The article has real-world content, but it's fairly small and rather generic (resulting in the fact that Rinoa might simply never attain FA). Overall, the information would be better presented if it were integrated into the Characters of FFVIII page. Kariteh 09:03, 20 August 2007 (UTC)

I disagree; the Characters of Final Fantasy VIII article is already long enough as it is, and I've been using this article as an example of a minimum standard of notability. — Deckiller 13:31, 20 August 2007 (UTC)
This is a rather silly way to prove a point. Anyways, the details probably could fit here if forced, but the character really has enough to have it stand on its own (GA is a good limit for a "sub-sub -article"). Movies are such compact pieces of media that everything can be contained in the one article . TTN 14:53, 20 August 2007 (UTC)
The only claim to notability the article has is the two references on girl gamer websites (though these are borderline). More should be made of these, rather than reciting the plot. As usual for FF articles, there are no screenshots.--Nydas(Talk) 18:44, 3 September 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Time Compression, spell or not?

According to [2], Edea doesn't actually call Time Compression a spell when she's discussing Ultimecia with Squall and the others. I'm inclined to say it's not a spell, rather it's a state of being. Bhamv (talk) 17:44, 4 January 2008 (UTC)

With the characters referring to Time Compresion as time magic e.g Squall and Dr Odine, I'm inclined to say it's a spell. Citation?
Squall: Time compression. Time compression? (It made me feel calm, tranquil.) It's time magic. Past, present, and future get compressed.
Dr Odine:Once Ultimecia iz in ze past, she'll use ze time compression magic. — Blue。 17:58, 4 January 2008 (UTC)
"she'll use ze time compression magic" = Magic for time compression. From here, I was in the midst of typing something different, when I searched on Google to back up my [point]; Nice place to go for the Final Fantasy-related [3] (see also, [4]). As I would have implied, "time compression" (upper or lower case letters?) is a process, which could be initiated by a spell [from Ultimecia] - there is no magic specifically called Time Compression, though it would be activated through the pointing of a finger. It is kin to detonating a bomb of sorts. Dlae│here 19:07, 4 January 2008 (UTC)
Eh, was just about to reply. I guess what would be better still is a citation from the FFVIII Info Corner or the FFVIII Ultimania. That would help clarify. — Blue。 19:13, 4 January 2008 (UTC)
Why is this even an issue? The line that says Time Compression = magic is already cited! Axem Titanium (talk) 21:36, 4 January 2008 (UTC)
Time Magic is Demi, and the like. Time compression has magical properties, but is not magic itself (what you would draw from an enemy). In Final Fantasy X-2, Shuyin had to play keys on a keyboard to ready Vegnagun's destruction - this is similar, replace where applicable. Dlae│here 22:29, 4 January 2008 (UTC)
I am now more inclined to say this is original research. Like I said, the FFVIII Info Corner or the Ultimania might shed some light in this. — Blue。 23:00, 4 January 2008 (UTC)
I think you're doing original research, taking things too literal and passing off your version of events as fact, and that is not what Wikipedia is for. Look, I've had this game for...a very long time, played through it about 20 times (making the timer turn red), know to keep levels as low as possible until GFs learn (!)bonus for easy stats of 255, refined hundreds of items and thousands of Curse Spikes for Dark Matters after Siren reaches Lv100, walked around Fisherman's Horizon with 5000+ HP, ventured around various places such as Shumi Village and FH to and fro and Card Queen, realise you have to ask Kiros about Julia during the beginning of Disc 2 in order to unlock 'Eyes On Me' as a glossarised entry (explaining Julia Heartilly died in a car crash when her daughter was 5), figured Bahamut must learn Rare Item for the vine to grow in the Research Center, raised my lesser used party members to Lv100 with 255 stats in 10 minutes, junctioned 100xEden to my Status Defence - but hey, that's where original research gets you, now here's the killer: two magic are specifically mentioned throughout the game - Cure (while the gang are imprisoned in the desert with the Moomba) and Firaga (a boy in the Classroom, when Balamb Garden is invaded by Galbadia). Notice, they are written in upper case letters. In the game, does "time compression" contain a capital T and C, respectively? Notable terms are usually highlighted in blue or yellow, in text or during conversation. FFVIII has a menu which can be accessed for various in-game features. One of these options is 'Tutorial'. This contains several subcategories, some of which include Information, Magic, People, Abilities, Terms, and so forth. Is "time compression" referenced in any of these? What does it say?


I'm not familiar with those two [sites] you mentioned, though I would have thought an entire Wiki on the Final Fantasy related would have been enough. I gave the FFX-2 example in a bid to clarify things, but since you've broke out the wiki-guns...I mean, it is cited around the statement of it being "a spell called Time Compression" (which appears to be suspiciously emphasised) but nothing to actually back it up. In fact, check out refs 79-81...I'm finding it increasingly harder to believe I'm arguing this!

  • Just throwing out a suggestion here: the article should simply say "[Ultimecia] seeks to achieve time compression", to keep things clean. Spell or process, either way she's trying to achieve time compression.

Dlae│here 14:55, 5 January 2008 (UTC)

Dr Odine: Once Ultimecia iz in ze past, she'll use ze time compression magic. I don't know how much more clear cut you want it. Reading any further into it would be original research and/or trying to correlate things that occur as part of gameplay into the actual fictional world. Arguing over "magic" versus "spell" is semantic nonsense. Axem Titanium (talk) 03:40, 5 January 2008 (UTC)
Magic for time compression!

Odine says it's a machine, and...Ultimecia did something with it/extracted something from it. Dlae│here 14:55, 5 January 2008 (UTC)

That "machine" you are talking about is the Junction Machine Ellone, which Ultimecia uses to send her consciousness back into the past and possess the sorceresses Edea, Adel and Rinoa. — Blue。 18:25, 5 January 2008 (UTC)

FFVIII Info Corner is the in-game menu, while FFVIII Ultimania is the official guide book published by Square. The guide book didn't have anything on Time Compression, but the Info Corner is saying this about the TC: "A complete mystery. Various states of "present" are believed to become compressed. Sorceress' power from many generations may cross over to give 1 sorceress great strength. No one knows what effect this may have on regular human beings." Then again, Dr Odine did say this: "It iz because Sorceress Ultimecia plans to compress time. Compressing time with magic... Vat good will it do for ze sorceress to compress time?" That's all I'm going to say. Just change the wording as it is deemed suitable. — Blue。 18:25, 5 January 2008 (UTC)

[edit] This article was better when it had images.

Now I don't know what anyone looks like and am too lazy to go and look up a decent picture for each of the individual characters somewhere else. I needed this page's images, damn it. Just throwin' the fact out there that a stupid decision to pointlessly remove images like that let a reader of Wikipedia down and this article is barely worth being a "Featured Article". - 4.156.24.67 (talk) 23:25, 22 February 2008 (UTC)

Wikipedia has been going on an image purge; check out WP:NFC. — Deckiller 04:27, 23 February 2008 (UTC)
Cry me a river. Lack of non-free content justification = lol delete. That's always been WP's policy. Peptuck (talk) 04:32, 23 February 2008 (UTC)
That's an excellent comment, "Peptuck". A truly excellent one. You are the pinnacle of intelliegence of the human race. I now fully understand that Wikipedia's asinine and illogical policies are far more important than being a decent encyclopedia. - 4.154.238.163 (talk) 20:58, 23 February 2008 (UTC)
Your approval would fill me with joy if I wasn't a proud, self-proclaimed asshole. Okay, let me spell it out for you in simple, easy-to-understand terms. WP's NFC policy is there to prevent Wikipedia from being legally sued for use of non-free content. That's why this "asinine and illogical" policy even exists in the first place. If you bothered looking at the reasoning for the policy in the first place (go here for said rationale) you would have undertsood why its important that images follow NFC and why Wikipedia is serious about that particular policy. Peptuck (talk) 06:56, 24 February 2008 (UTC)
Can an article be classed as Featured standard without images? Time for a renomination, perhaps? Maybe those bureaucratic imbeciles who appear to draw up a new policy every day and tying our hands further would think twice if a formerly Featured article was demoted to Good because of their constant meddling. Gamer Junkie T / C 03:00, 24 February 2008 (UTC)
Well, NFC policy has been around for a good, long while. Its not WP's fault if the people who provide the images don't provide appropriate justification. It is WP's fault if they have an image that isn't permitted if the situation is brought up in a court of law. Peptuck (talk) 07:18, 24 February 2008 (UTC)
Oh please. The day Wikipedia is sued by Square Enix for providing what basically amounts to free advertising is the day a snowball freezes hell over. All rules, no common sense. Gamer Junkie T / C 07:26, 24 February 2008 (UTC)
Well, then. You go waltz on over to the NFC talk page and tell everyone that the long-standing policy is stupid and needs to be changed. Peptuck (talk) 07:31, 24 February 2008 (UTC)
That's the problem, mate, it doesn't work. Every bureaucrat and admin involved behind the scenes has his/her head up so far up their arse they've lost touch with the project's goals. It's all about policy this, guideline that, merge this, delete that. It's all red tape and politics and the quality of the articles are suffering. Case in point: THIS ONE. Nobody wants to discuss the situation, they simply throw a policy at you and that's end of discussion. The worst part is that the common sense thinkers who actually contribute to Wikipedia are doing just that, not floating around policy articles and notability discussions committing every last word of Wiki-notability to memory. I would be the first person to back some sort of petition to lower restrictions on Wikipedia's editors if there was the slightest semblance of possibility that somebody would actually listen. Gamer Junkie T / C 10:34, 24 February 2008 (UTC)

Wikipedia's policies on non-free content are rigorous and strict for the same reason why nuclear power plants have rigorous safety regulations. All it potentially takes is one lawsuit for Wikipedia to go down permanently. Just like all it takes is one oversight for a disastrous meltdown.

And you're right, Wikipedia's not likely to be sued by Square Enix for using the images. But can you say the same for every company in the world? And do you think it's worth the risk, the risk of Wikipedia getting into legal trouble? I don't. Just plain common sense, really.

Was this article better when it had images? I think so. Would Wikipedia be improved, as an encyclopedia, if it could use any image it wants? I think so too. But unfortunately, that doesn't address the harsh facts of reality, that these images are not free, they don't belong to Wikipedia, and so they cannot be used with impunity.

Oh, and, the project's goals are, primarily, to build a good free encyclopedia. The "free" part is just as important as the "good" and "encyclopedia" part.

As a final note, if you're not satisfied with my explanation, I see three possible avenues of recourse: Discuss the issue over at the NFC talk page, get copyright law changed, or start your own online encyclopedia. Bhamv (talk) 10:54, 24 February 2008 (UTC)

You'll notice that I mentioned earlier common sense, and that things should be discussed to avoid blanket policy sweeps from claiming unnecessary scalps and doing more harm than good. This article would be one of those. I'm very much aware that there are images which must be used prudently, the McDonalds logo, for example, and I don't disagree that we should have rules in place regarding those. However, this would be where the whole ignorance of discussion thing comes in. If I were to bring up the fact that this article's images are almost certainly safe to use, any administrator or bureaucrat making the decision would simply cite policy and ignore common sense. I've lost track of how many times I've attempted to appeal to an admin and received a text book response, word for word, instead. As far as your options go, the idea of bringing this up at NFC is laughable, copyright law wouldn't need alterations were we smart instead of simply binding, and there's already more than enough new Wikis springing up across the Internet. Testament to Wikipedia's potential? Or simply fed up former editors tired of how things are done here? Maybe I'll ask somebody at another Wiki, eh? Gamer Junkie T / C 11:59, 24 February 2008 (UTC)
I would say to err on the side of safety. I'm not entirely happy with how things are handled now but it's certainly better than trusting the hordes other editors who may or may not have the same level of common sense that you or I do. It's a matter of universalisability. A policy based on common sense doesn't really work since each person's common sense is different and, applied on a massive scale such as all of Wikipedia, you'll find that said horde will resort to such arguments as WP:OTHERCRAPEXISTS to justify their own image galleries. Axem Titanium (talk) 21:54, 24 February 2008 (UTC)
I think stuff like this should be dealt with on a case by case basis. Ideally we would get permission from the copyright holder to use as many fair use images as we needed to write a good article (and the makers of the game would want the page to be well illustrated, I imagine). Then there would be no copyright problem. But someone can't really come to a page like this and expect you to follow a policy without discussing the page in question. You would expect to see more pictures than this in an article on characters, and the article is suffering because of it.
By the way, what is the copyright status of fan created art? Surely such images could be freely licensed, and used here (provided they are good, of course). Richard001 (talk) 05:22, 29 March 2008 (UTC)
I've seen fan art used on one of the Hitman articles or sub-articles, but I'm not sure about its legal status. I don't believe it can be used unless the artist has released the image into the public domain. Gamer Junkie T / C 06:19, 31 March 2008 (UTC)

[edit] Selphie in Kingdom Hearts

Somebody removed my mention of her using a jump rope in this game calling it original research. I have played the game, and I have seen it. It IS a jump rope. I don't know how else I can prove this except for people to play the game and see for themselves. It is a jump rope. Brittany Ka (talk) 22:35, 10 May 2008 (UTC)