Talk:Changshan
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I think Cheongsam is not equal to Qipao. Cheongsam is more general that the Chinese worn in the early 20th century. Qipao is specified the women clothing that was worn by women in Qing Dynasty and its mutation. There were some modifications in the 1930-40 and became not so conservative (e.g., shorter, higher slits, short sleeves or sleeveless and so forth). However, the Qipao is still exclusive used for the specified women dress and is NOT same as Cheongsam.
LHM Mar 21, 2007
- The garment(s) are functionally the same—a robe originating in China from the Manchus which is fastened at the right front shoulder and upper side. Kimono are worn by both Japanese men and women—if both genders' versions of that garment are in the same article, why not cheongsam/qipao? I vote in favor of the proposed merger. DocWatson42 09:10, 27 May 2007 (UTC)
Removed ”The costume department must have mistaken it for a qipao” from the Sophie Fatale trivia. Who knows if that was a mistake, or they did want her in male clothing? Bossk-Office 22:36, 17 November 2006 (UTC)
I'm a bit confused. I checked Google images for Cheongsam, and out of 21 pages every image displayed was a female garment. Why is it referred to here as a male garment? And is there any possibility of a better example of the male version other than something that cuts the image at the waist line? MDonfield 10:11, 17 January 2007 (UTC)
A couple of things
- Lol. If you check out Google Images for "jeans" nearly all of them are women's too! Not an accurate reflection; more to do with the fashion industry. It's even worse when you search for the Chinese term "服装" (fúzhuãng) which means clothing.
- According to China's Foreign Language Teaching and Research Press's Chinese-English Dictionary, "衫" is an unlined upper garment; used in 衬衫 (shirt) and 汗衫 (T-shirt); so I have translated 长衫 as "long shirt" to remove the confusion with the English word "dress" often referring to a particular type of dress for women.
- It seems to me "qipao" is the exclusive name for the women's dress in mainland China (except maybe among Cantonese-speakers, who make less than 5% of the population), so that entry should be retained. The term "cheongsam" can also refer to men's dress (e.g. [1]), so this one should also be retained.
That's my two bob's worth. Lantianer 00:29, 3 June 2007 (UTC)
- The problem is that people are trying to impose Cantonese or Mandarin usage on English. The original article was created by User:Blind Man Walking, who appears to be Chinese from comments on his talk page, with the justification: Finally, a social Faux Pas to confuse the Cheongsam and the Qipao is corrected!
- It matters not one iota whether cheongsam refers to a male garment in Cantonese. In English it's basically a women's garment. See Websters: "a dress of Southern Chinese origin with a slit skirt and a mandarin collar".
- Trying to impose the Chinese meaning on English is a bit like French speakers telling us that a 'crayon' isn't "a stick of white or coloured chalk or of coloured wax used for writing or drawing", but is, in fact, a "lead pencil". Or that both hunting rifles and military carbines should both be called 'carbines', because French carabine is used for both.
- So please stop telling us what cheongsam means in Chinese (esp. Cantonese) and write us an encyclopaedic article dealing with what the cheongsam means in English.
- Bathrobe 11:00, 11 July 2007 (UTC)
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- User: Kowloonese has a good explanation at Talk:Qipao on the usage of qipao and cheongsam, posted way back in 2005. The explanation is eminently sensible and it's regrettable that no one went ahead to implement it. Instead, the situation has been further muddied by unjustified attempts to impose Chinese usage on English.
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- The two articles should indeed be merged, adhering to the English-language usage, but with a clear explanation of Chinese-language usages, probably along the lines of Kowloonese's suggestion. As it is, the two articles are completely confusing for English speakers. Wikipedia is a place for giving information in the English language, no matter how flawed that may be, not a soap box for going out and changing the world in the editor's preferred image.
- Bathrobe 11:25, 11 July 2007 (UTC)
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- Unless someone responds on this page, I will go in and make the requisite changes, if necessary merging with Qipao.
- Bathrobe 12:49, 16 July 2007 (UTC)
I support a merge. From a Cantonese-speaking background I see the distinction, but it would be clearer to state what a cheongsam or qibao is rather than what it is not. Use photos to illustrate the point if it helps. Claw789 09:10, 13 August 2007 (UTC)
I also support a merge. Although Mandarin speakers and other Sinophiles may make a clear distincton between cheongsams and qipaos, general English usage does not. Article titles and organization should reflect this per WP:USEENGLISH. One article at can explain the terminology issues and cover the male and female varieties of dress. Merge the content at cheongsam to qipao (which has a longer edit history) and rename the article cheongsam. — AjaxSmack 18:26, 30 August 2007 (UTC)
i do not support a merge. however, in cantonese "qipao" is never heard, and cheongsam is used to describe both male and female versions fot the article of clothing. the cheongsam is very different from qipao. the styles in which they were made differ greatly. the cheongsam is often worn with a vest, and the qipao is often embroidered Kangshifu 17:53, 9 September 2007 (UTC)
In Hong Kong many people think cheongsam is equal to Makwa馬掛, in pinyin Makua; literally "horse riding dress", the male dress. Only school call cheongsam as the name of their qipao uniform. More female students said them as Keipo, in piyin qipao, than cheongsamComfortpracticalclothingnl 08:28, 7 October 2007 (UTC)
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- May I ask what language these Hong Kong people are speaking? English (cheongsam)? Or Cantonese (長衫)? If you ask a Frenchman in Paris what a crayon is, he'll tell you it's a lead pencil. Does that mean we have to change the article on Crayon to deal with lead pencils?
- Bathrobe 14:06, 7 October 2007 (UTC)
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- The Cantonese pronounciation is also "Cheongsam". Qipao is not used to describe the male versions. Sometimes the Cheongsam is called "the Chinese clothing" overseas(in pinyin Tang Zuang唐裝, the Tang costume, but the Tang costume is a version of Hanfu. Now in the Mainland China sometimes it is called the Qing Zuang清裝, the Qing costume.Comfortpracticalclothingnl 13:03, 25 October 2007 (UTC)
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Just go ahead and make the merge. I strongly support Bathrobe and his logic is undeniable. --Onesecondglance 12:21, 3 November 2007 (UTC)
- Someone has removed the merger proposal tag because of "lack of consensus". But that doesn't resolve the issue. The article starts with this nonsensical introduction:
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- A cheongsam (traditional Chinese: 長衫; simplified Chinese: 长衫; pinyin: Chángshān; Cantonese Yale: Chèuhngsàam; Shanghainese: Zǎnze; literally "long shirt") is the male equivalent of the women's qipao. The word cheongsam entered English vocabulary through the Cantonese language, in which it refers to both male and female dresses of this type. However, a distinction between the male cheongsam and female qipao is made by Chinese who do not speak Cantonese.
- The trouble is, cheongsam IS a Cantonese term. So what sense does it make to say that "a distinction between the male cheongsam and female qipao is made by Chinese who do not speak Cantonese"? The logic is completely screwed up. Cheongsam is a Cantonese word. The article itself says quite clearly that in Cantonese cheongsam refers to both male and female dresses of this type. Well, if Cantonese uses cheongsam for both male and female clothing, and English also uses it for male and female clothing, why the hell is the article telling us that cheongsam is the male equivalent of a qipao? The current messed up article is a result of people trying to impose non-Cantonese dialect meanings on Cantonese and foreign language meanings on English. And the confusion shows up in the contradictory statements in the article itself.
- Bathrobe (talk) 08:25, 25 January 2008 (UTC)
I've finally figured out a way to sort out this utter mess!
- 1) Cheongsam should be transferred to a new page entitled Changshan. The changshan article will refer to the male clothing item.
- 2) Qipao should be transferred to Cheongsam.
Most of the two articles can then be used virtually without change. The word changshan will be treated as a foreign word, with a note that the Mandarin word changshan entered English from Cantonese as 'cheongsam' and reflects the HK Cantonese meaning (qipao).
Cheongsam can thus be used for the article about the feminine article of clothing. However, the article should make very clear that qipao is the more common Chinese term for what we call a cheongsam. While the trend is probably towards the use of qipao in English as a new generation starts adhering to Mandarin usages rather than traditional English (from Cantonese) usages, the article should still stick to cheongsam as the normal English term for the moment. The switching between cheongsam and qipao is quite confusing. Bathrobe (talk) 08:59, 25 January 2008 (UTC)
- I've now changed all occurrences of "cheongsam" in the article to changshan. Yes, I know that changshan is not a well-known word in English. But it's still better than using "cheongsam", which means something completely different to an English speaker!
- Thinking about the issue more carefully, the problem was the equating of the "cheongsam" to the changshan. Cantonese is the one dialect where 长衫 is not used solely for the male garment (and in HK may even just be the female garment). Choosing the semi-naturalised Cantonese word "cheongsam" as the title for an article about a Chinese male item of dress was quite misguided.
- (While the mistake is pretty obvious to an English speaker, for a Chinese speaker it's not nearly so obvious. The problem is Chinese characters. For a Chinese, the fact that changshan and cheongsam are both written 长衫 means that changshan and cheongsam are thought of as pretty much interchangeable. If anything, the usage of 长衫 for female clothing in Cantonese is likely to be regarded as a kind of "regional nuance", and perhaps an "incorrect" regional nuance. The originator of the article was thus able to completely disregard the different meanings of 长衫 in Mandarin and Cantonese, and then force the Mandarin meaning on "cheongsam" in English.)
