Talk:Chancellor of the Exchequer

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Contents

[edit] Really Old Stuff

To be added. I'm off to be now. Mintguy

John Anderson                  1943-1945     National Government
Hugh Dalton                    1945-1947     Labour
Stafford Cripps                1947-1950     Labour
Hugh Gaitskell                 1950-1951     Labour
Richard Austen Butler          1951-1955     Conservative
(Maurice) Harold Macmillan     1955-1957     Conservative
Peter Thorneycroft             1957-1958     Conservative
Derick Heathcoat Amory         1958-1960     Conservative
Selwyn Lloyd                   1960-1962     Conservative
Reginald Maudling              1962-1964     Conservative
(Leonard) James Callaghan      1964-1967         Labour
Roy Harris Jenkins             1967-1970         Labour 
Iain Macleod                   1970              Conservative
Anthony Barber                 1970-1974         Conservative
Denis Healey                   1974-1979         Labour 
(Richard Edward) Geoffrey Howe 1979-1983         Conservative
Nigel Lawson                   1983-1989         Conservative
John Roy Major                 1989-1990         Conservative
Norman Lamont                  1990-1993         Conservative
Kenneth Harry Clarke           1993-1997         Conservative
Gordon Brown                   1997-             Labour


As this is the #1 hit on Google it deserves a better article. Goodnight Mintguy 22:43 Feb 6, 2003 (UTC)

Hm. Some of the stuff in here should perhaps be moved to Exchequer. --mav 21:14 13 Jul 2003 (UTC)

Um... Exchequer is an archaic term that derives its name from a piece of chequered cloth that was once used to count money. The government department is acutally called 'the Treasury' or 'HM Treasury', only rarely called the Exchequer. Mintguy
What about other countries, though? Deb 21:24 13 Jul 2003 (UTC)
I don't know about other countries, but I was just wondering whether it is really correct to say, as the article currently does, "... the Chancellor of the Exchequer ... who heads the Exchequer"
Yeah, that's why I just redirected it to Chancellor of the Exchequer at first. But I guess the Exchequer article could talk about the original term some more. Adam Bishop 21:25 13 Jul 2003 (UTC)

I've done a rewrite to correct info (the Budget no longer takes place in March. Until a couple of years ago both Britain and Ireland used the Julian Calendar to run the tax year. That was only recently changed meaning that both counties moved their Budget dates from January (IRL) and April (UK) to November. Also some other info, including explaining what the C of the E is the equivalent of in other states. FearÉIREANN 22:31 13 Jul 2003 (UTC)

The tax year end still ends on April 5. It used to be 25 of March till the changeover of calendars, when people complained about having to pay a full years tax for a year less 11 days. Mintguy 01:33 14 Jul 2003 (UTC)

Third oldest office? Certainly Lord Chancellor and Lord Privy Seal are older, but I'd think others are as well...anyone know where that bit came from? john 05:59, 15 Dec 2003 (UTC)

[edit] Robe of office

I recall there's a robe that the Chancellor wore on formal occasions, though by Snowden/Churchill's time this was just once a year to oversee the appointment of some magistrates. Anyone know when this was abolished altogether, along with the function.

Also am I right that this is the robe (as worn by Lord North)?

Image:Lord North.jpg

Timrollpickering 18:00, 2 Jan 2005 (UTC)

[edit] PC?

Removed 'PC' from Rt Hon Gordon Brown PC MP. PC is not normally used for a Member of the House of Commons. Privy Council status is indicated by Rt Hon. PC is often used for members of the House of Lords.

[edit] Changes

I've made some "bold"-ish changes to this. Apologies if I've overdone it (but I don't think I have). I have not removed anything but I have reorganised the text for style. I've added in a few bits, nothing major, but I have not checked any facts.

The basic point of these changes is to make the text flow more logically - ie summary, then important facts plus disambiguation, followed by detailed section on responsibilities, then trivia. Previous version was a bit all over the place.

Explanation of some of the changes:

  • To say "ancient title" in the first few words might suggest it is no longer the current title. Fine to point out that it's ancient, but it shouldn't be in the introductory sentence; I think it gives the wrong impression. The first sentence of the second par does now makes it clear that it is an ancient title, but better still would be if we could give a precise-ish date.
  • I didn't like the rest of the first sentence, either... "The Chancellor of the Exchequer is the ancient title held by the British cabinet minister whose responsibilities are akin to the posts of Minister for Finance or Secretary of the Treasury in other jurisdictions." - well, to define the post with reference to other countries seems peculiar, like saying "The Prime Minister is the office whose responsibilities are akin to the President or King in other countries". Better to define it first in terms of the UK system, then follow it with an explanation that relates to other countries.
  • The article need to emphasise the power of the office - hence one of the four offices of state is now more prominent, and the fact that he's generally number two to the PM is in par 2. (This needs emphasis, as the job is in this respect totally different to, say, the US Secretary to the Treasury, and for US readers it's not an obvious point.)
  • need to refer to HM Treasury from the start
  • "Historically, the Chancellor controlled monetary policy as well as fiscal policy" - Ken Clarke is hardly an historical figure. "Until recently" is better.
  • there's a third Chancellor these days to get confused about...
  • "summarised" rather than revealed - the Budget is distinct from the Budget Speech

Help please:

  • when does the title date from?
  • when did he switch to controlling HMT rather than the Exchequer?
  • more trivia could be of interest...

Thoughts, anyone? Gabriel Rozenberg 18:47, 8 November 2005 (UTC)

[edit] Salary

When I was studying British government in the 1970s, the salary of the Chancellor of the Exchequer actually exceeded that of the Prime Minister. Is this still true? Where might I find a list of salaries of British government officials? Unschool 17:23, 20 May 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Sir Kingsley Wood

Sir Kingsley died on 21 Sep, 1943. He could not be possible stepping down on 24 September. Can anyone help verifying the exact tenure of his chancellorship?--218.103.231.56 17:46, 14 June 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Notes

Given the confusion caused by the various Lord Chief Justices who have temporarily served as Chancellor of the Exchequer (I see that Lord Denman, a Whig if ever there was one, was until recently listed as a Tory because he happened to be temporarily holding the office during Wellington's caretaker ministry), I wanted to add a footnote to indicate which of the Chancellors were the lord chief justice holding the exchequer in a temporary capacity. Unfortunately, I have absolutely no idea how to do it. The text in the footnotes, so far as I can tell, appears nowhere in the actual page, but is merely indicated by notices like "pmafter" and "alsopm". So I have no idea what on earth is going on. Can anyone help? john k 00:30, 11 July 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Darling

We apparently only have a tiny, completely inadequate picture of Darling, but shouldn't we have one (preferably a better one) of him in this article, given that he's the current chancellor. john k 00:36, 11 July 2007 (UTC)

Definitely agree. I put the pictures in a while ago to spruce up a dull table. There isn't the space for photos of all of them. So my idea was that the criterion for inclusion would be Chancellors who had a particularly long or pathbreaking tenure. Gladstone and Pitt are probably unarguably worthy here... Brown fits for his decade. Darling would fit too, for being the current man. I think arguably Lawson would be good as well, perhaps more so than Howe, and Snowden is arguably not so important. However in practice I ended up just sticking in photos that Wikipedia already had. Room for improvement. 18:57, 11 July 2007 (UTC)
I'm not particularly sure of Pitt - he's significant as a prime minister, not particularly as a Chancellor. Same deal with Walpole. Of course, the early chancellors in general aren't terrifically important. Gladstone, definitely. He's "the man who made the job," as Jenkins says. Of the rest of the 19th century, I'd suggest Althorp, Disraeli, and Lord Randolph Churchill as the most clearly notable. Lloyd George probably deserves a listing, and maybe Neville Chamberlain - he was more significant than Snowden and longer serving, at least. Rab Butler and Denis Healey would also be plausible candidates. At any rate, I'd suggest that Darling's picture shouldn't go in the list, but separately, somewhere near the top of the article. john k 05:24, 12 July 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Improved list

Comments on the improved list of Chancellors:

- The new pictures are great but they are teenyweeny and perhaps some of them, eg Roy Jenkins's, could be cropped to headshots so that they work better.

- Now that Darling's pic has shrunk down perhaps the time has come to put him up at the top of the page somewhere as well, eg in place of the Treasury photo, in line with Prime Minister of the United Kingdom.

- Someone has well-meaniningly added numbers to a list of Chancellors. But the idea of numbering UK politicians is a bit more contentious than it might seem. See here. The US idea that you can be, to use the main example, both 22nd and 24th President hasn't really spread to any list of UK ministers that I've seen and I think that numbering this list in the same way is peculiar: Gladstone has become Chancellor number 19, 22, 26 and 28! If there are numbers I think it should just be one per person. 20:53, 19 August 2007 (UTC)

The numbering is a total mess because it relies on value judgements that are neither universal nor commonly made, e.g. does the numbering "reset" at any time (and why 1801 rather than 1921?), do returnees count more than once (e.g. Snowden, both Chamberlains), what about when the same person is appointed in a new government (Snowden, Anderson) and so forth. The British practice to identify Chancellorships is to talk about when someone was Chancellor. Timrollpickering 06:26, 21 August 2007 (UTC)
No numbers. They really do need to go. Has anyone ever called Hugh Childers the "29th Chancellor of the Exchequer of the United Kingdom?" Or, for that matter, can one find any reference in the last ten years to Brown as the "73rd chancellor of the exchequer of the United Kingdom"? Hell, this number is, in fact, not even correct on its own terms, since Pitt was the first prime minister and chancellor after the act of union of 1801, which went into effect at the beginning of the year - Addington only came in two months later. john k 06:35, 21 August 2007 (UTC)
I'll also note the additional problem that the Lord Chief Justices who occasionally served as interim chancellor (Lord Denman may be the only one in the period where the numbering is currently being done) should perhaps not be counted. john k 06:36, 21 August 2007 (UTC)
Tenterden as well. Timrollpickering 06:53, 21 August 2007 (UTC)

By the way, the number of chancellors we don't have pictures for is sad - surely there must be some available photographs of Lamont, Lawson, Healey, Macleod, Lloyd, Amory, Thorneycroft, Butler, Dalton, Wood, Horne, Hicks Beach, Goschen, Childers, and Lewis? Any pictures of the last four, at least, would presumably be in the public domain at this point. john k 06:39, 21 August 2007 (UTC)

Also some of the party labels are a bit off - Walpole a Tory?! And for some of the lesser ones I'm not sure if there are accurate or not as some Tories participated in Whig governments in the 18th century. Timrollpickering 06:53, 21 August 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Fair use rationale for Image:Roy Jenkins, Brussels.jpg

Image:Roy Jenkins, Brussels.jpg is being used on this article. I notice the image page specifies that the image is being used under fair use but there is no explanation or rationale as to why its use in this Wikipedia article constitutes fair use. In addition to the boilerplate fair use template, you must also write out on the image description page a specific explanation or rationale for why using this image in each article is consistent with fair use.

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BetacommandBot (talk) 21:05, 26 November 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Numbering?

Is there any point in the numbering in the table of UK Chancellors? I fear that this may suggest that there is some official or widely-accepted numbering scheme (whereas I assume it is just something that a particular editor has decided would be worth doing). Bluewave (talk) 07:27, 10 December 2007 (UTC)

Consensus (see above) is indeed not to number this list. Numerophiles, please leave it alone!! 10:52, 10 December 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Tory/Conservative

The table at the bottom sometimes uses Tory and sometimes Conservative - aren't they the same thing, so should be standardised? George D. Watson (Dendodge).TalkHelp 21:45, 16 April 2008 (UTC)

It's confused because "Tory" has persisted as a nickname for the Conservatives, but in the 1830s the Conservative Party emerged from the shattered British Tory Party. The best "line in the sand" is Peel's 1834-1835 government which issued the Tamworth Manifesto. Timrollpickering (talk) 22:15, 16 April 2008 (UTC)