Talk:Champ Car

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This article is part of the WikiProject American Open Wheel Racing, a collaborative effort to improve and standardize articles related to open wheel Indy car racing in the United States, with an emphasis on the Indy Racing League IndyCar Series. The projects encompasses a wide range of open wheel topics, including Champ Car. If you would like to participate, you can edit the article attached to this page, or visit the project page, where you can join the project and/or contribute to the discussion.


See also Talk:IndyCar for much more on the same subject.

Contents

[edit] Opening paragraph

This sentence: "However with Champ Car on the rapid rise, it seems that in the very near future it will have no competition whatsoever." is rather silly and belittles other varieties of motorsports of many types. Competition from what? Will CHAMP become so popular that WRC is abandoned from lack of interest? On a wider point, is there even any truth in the statement? I deleted it anyway for now. —The preceding unsigned comment was added by 81.156.60.176 (talk) 19:29, 17 March 2007 (UTC).

[edit] Article content

I have asked repeatedly that we place AAA, USAC, and CART history under their own categories. It is ridiculous to place this information under the Champ Car heading. Until this is done, I will continue to delete this history out of the Champ Car page on a regular basis.

As long as Champ Car recognises this history as their own, we should recognise it as theirs. This history was licensed by CART, and that carried over to Champ Car once the CART assets were purchased. --74.108.100.177 22:33, 2 November 2006 (UTC)

CART, AAA, USAC, CART, and CHAMPcar have not all sanctioned the same series. That is legally incorrect and only your personal opinion. As long as this states that a Champ Car is short for the Champ Car World Series, all that other history is out and should be placed in separate articles for AAA, USAC, and CART.

When OWRS purchased the assets of CART, they purchased all history that went along with it. The champ car name was used in the last CART season. AAA, USAC, CART, ChampCar are all considered to have sanctioned the same series. --CorSter 01:04, 2 November 2006 (UTC)

Stop listing any history of Champ Car World Series with CART, USAC, or AAA. These series were not sanctioned by Champ Car. CART maybe can be part of the history because it was purchased by Champ Car...but USAC and AAA were not purchased by Champ Car and so their history is not able to be claimed.

I believe that there was some sort of legal decision that allowed Champ Car (the company formed in 2004 that runs the current Champ Car World Series) the rights to use all the AAA and USAC history. I have seen several Champ Car races (2004+) that include AAA and USAC era footage in television broadcasts. If you look on the Champ Car website, history of AAA and USAC championships are included. I'm not sure if CART had these rights but it appears the new Champ Car does. So, legally, Champ Car IS the descendent of CART, USAC and AAA. --RA64 18:36, 13 October 2005 (UTC)

I don't understand why the list of AAA and USAC champions was removed from the article. The person who removed them said it was because "CART did not sanction those titles", yet this article seems to be about Champ Car racing, and not specifically the CART sanctioning body, although a search for 'CART' does redirect to Champ Car. The AAA and USAC championships are generally considered the predecessors to the CART sanctioned championship, and the current Champ Car Championship, and the History section of this article does indeed include information about the AAA and USAC championships.


This article is somewhat misnamed; it's more about the championships and sanctioning bodies than about the cars. It ought to be split into at least two articles, and maybe three (depending on whether or not you split the championships and sanctioning bodies). But the cars definitely deserve a separate article. (And the content of IndyCars ought to be merged into the cars article.)

This article is about the championship series - the Champ Car World Series. IndyCars should NOT be merged - that is an entirely different trademark of an entirely different series today. "Champ Car" and "IndyCar" describe two different race cars operated by two different sanctioning bodies - the Champ Car World Series, Inc. and the Indy Racing League. "IndyCars" today have nothing to do with "Champ Cars" - they're entirely different things and it's inappropriate to call them IndyCars. Accordingly, I've removed "IndyCars" from the article. --FCYTravis 20:10, 16 Dec 2004 (UTC)
OK, so let's have Champ Car World Series and Indy Racing League as the articles for the two series, and the article for the cars can refer to them both. But as I pointed out over on Talk:IndyCar, historically the cars that ran the Indy 500 were formally and officially known as "Champ" cars. So you cannot keep them out of an article on Champ cars. Noel (talk) 23:47, 16 Dec 2004 (UTC)
The articles for the cars should not be the same - any more than you would put Formula 1 cars in with them because "they both have four wheels, an engine in the back and wings." Of course there should be mentions of the history of both, but a Champ Car IS NOT an IndyCar and an IndyCar IS NOT a Champ Car. One article for "IndyCars" and another for "Champ Cars" - of course each referring to the other. The history of each and how they are intertwined is of course important - but we would completely mislead readers by calling "IndyCars" "Champ Cars" or vice versa. In today's lexicon they are two completely separate things and have been for nearly a decade. --FCYTravis 04:13, 17 Dec 2004 (UTC)
If you want to be that technical about it, then we need at least three articles for the cars: one for pre-1995 cars, when there was only one spec (although two different sanctioning bodies), one for post-95 IRL cars, and one for post-95 Champ Cars. (I say "at least" because I don't know if you want to distinguish between the USAC cars and the post-79/pre-95 CART cars, etc.)
Although now that I look at the Indy Racing League page, I see their cars are described there, so to me it would make more sense to do the same thing for the Champ Car World Series - put the post-95 cars for that series on that page. Noel (talk) 05:11, 17 Dec 2004 (UTC)
What would make sense to me is if we want separate articles on the car specs, have one for "IndyCar" which first talks about what a current IndyCar is, and briefly mentions its past history as the name for what would currently be called a Champ Car. Champ Car would be a second article again talking first about what a current Champ Car is, and then delving into more detail into the history of the various cars that contended for the National Championship Trail... or would that belong in a new page called The Utter And Complete Debacle That Is Open Wheel Racing's History? Someone's going to write a great dissertation on this someday, but I digress. I just think we need to categorize as much as possible to avoid confusing people - it's a tangled web already just figuring out USAC vs CCWS vs IRL vs OWRS vs CART, and I think we need to as clearly as possible link the sanctioning bodies to their respective series. IRL = "IndyCar" from 2003-present, CART/CCWS = IndyCar from 1979 (with USAC) to 1996, Champ Car from 1997 to the present. --FCYTravis 05:28, 17 Dec 2004 (UTC)
PS: Try looking at Special:Whatlinkshere/Champcars. An extremely long list of things like here, and even ignoring the ones that come here through redirects, many of them (e.g. Ray Harroun) are clearly linked here for the generic meaning, not for the Champ Car World Series. Noel (talk) 00:09, 17 Dec 2004 (UTC)

My suggestion is to work out how many article we want first, and what each will contain - we can work out the exact titles later. Noel (talk) 06:11, 16 Dec 2004 (UTC)

Do you seriously suggest a new article? For what, every change in spec? Or do you N think ChampCars race at Indy? Where do you think "IndyCar" comes from? Someplace has to be a "root"; roadsters, Indycars, Champcars all come from the same beginnings. Trekphiler 14:14, 24 December 2005 (UTC)

How can an article with the title Champ Car not be about the car? Champ Car World Series should have its own article. As should CART, IRL, USAC, etc. The name Champ Car has a definite and demonstrable historical context. Regardless of changes in sanctioning bodies, today's Champ Cars trace their lineage and evolution directly back to a time when many of these organzations didn't even exist. Unknown Unknown time

Can someone who is a better editor than I take a look at the below paragraph in the 2007 Season section? I think it has a little bias / non-factual discussion that may not be appropriate for an encyclopedia discussion. I forgot what Wikipedia calls that particular violation. Specifically, the part about the open-wheel series' no longer being looked at as feeders to F1: the rival IndyCar series, as the author puts it, has NEVER fed any driver to F1, whereas this year's Champ Car champion IS going to F1. But I'm not even sure any of that should be pointed out here. In addition "it is hoped by many open-wheel racing fans"--???--does this kind of content really belong in an encyclopedia article rather than in some Forum or Newspaper?

Paragraph in question: "At present there is also some chatter regarding the reunification of Champ Car with its rival series, the IndyCar Series. It is hoped by many open-wheel racing fans that this merger of the two series (in respect of field sizes and television ratings) will secure the future of open-wheel racing in North America, whose racing landscape is currently ruled by the massively popular and more financially stable NASCAR. Moreover, the open-wheel series are no longer looked at as the top feeder to Formula One as they once were. A merger for the 2007 season will not happen; however, there is still speculation both sides will hopefully look again for future opportunities to resolve outstanding differences. Champ Car moving to the same network as the IndyCar Series could help to this end." 198.45.18.70 14:09, 6 November 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Proposed move

  • I propose to move this article to "Champ Car" - the official title of both the car and the series. "Champcar" all one word is neither as widely used nor is it correct terminology for the car or series. Two words. --FCYTravis 08:01, 31 May 2005 (UTC)
  • Support violet/riga (t) 20:23, 6 Jun 2005 (UTC)

This article has been renamed as the result of a move request. violet/riga (t) 20:23, 6 Jun 2005 (UTC)

[edit] Another move

  • Is there a reason why this article should not be called "Champ Car World Series", the full name of the circuit? AEMoreira042281 20:02, 25 February 2007 (UTC)
Champ Car is the sanctioning body of the current Champ Car World Series, so it could probably go either way. For example, the IRL Indy Car series is listed under Indy racing league. The most important thing we need to do is split up USAC championship, CART and CCWS into separate articles. Right now, it says "Champ Car" was founded in 1979, which IMO is completely ridiculous. Its either 1909 or 2004.--RA64 00:04, 26 February 2007 (UTC)

[edit] CART before the...

Silly trivia: it's said the one difference between CART & the Taliban is, CART has 3 Americans. (None of them are quick enough to win in F1, unlike a Canadian I could name...) Trekphiler Flag of Canada 08:21, 24 December 2005

Too bad he hasn't won since... (Assuming you mean the younger) Counterfit 04:07, 30 May 2006 (UTC)
That's what happens when you can't keep the team manager & the drivers out of the BAR. (Sorry.) Trekphiler Flag of Canada 18:26, 6 February 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Comparison with F1 cars

I think changing "(since F1 imposed stricter engine specifications from 2006)" to "(since F1 switched to smaller engines for/from 2006)" would be a little more accurate Counterfit 04:11, 30 May 2006 (UTC)

Not being an expert in either formula, there were a few cases where I wasn't sure to which car the description applied. I can't make these changes myself without some research. Perhaps someone who already understands these differences would be interested in making this section a little clearer.

Great article, though. This section, in particular, was just what I've been looking for. A slightly clearer delineation is all I ask. Thanks

- Rockthing 16:55, 25 November 2006 (UTC)


I believe the fact that the new Panoz DP-01 Champ Car has lapped Laguna Seca faster than a Toyota F1 car needs to be inserted in the comparison section. I'm sure how to word it best to fit it in here, though.


- I seem to recall that in 2002 when Champ Car first raced at Montreal (Circuit Gilles Villeneuve)
 one of the talking points concerning lap time advantage for the F1 cars was that they still had a tyre war 
going on; in Champ Car there was only one tyre maker and thus harder compounds. Yes, the F1 cars were likely to 
still be quicker, but not by quite as much. Also, the 2006 lap time comparisons are a but skewed by the fact 
the weather was not quite so nice for the Champ Car weekend. R H Pearson 14:15, 29 May 2007 (UTC)
  • Do Champ Cars qualify with low-fuel? F1 have had to qualify with their starting race fuel for some years, knocking around 1 to 1.5 seconds off their true pace. If Champ Cars are on low fuel for qualifying, I'd have thought a true-speed gap for a qualifying lap at Canada might be even greater.
  • In this section the only reason cited for F1's lack of ground effect use is "a 1983 decision to reduce cornering speeds". While part of the story, the safety aspect really should be mentioned. E.G. a disturbance breaking the traction created by the ground effects can cause sudden and detrimental loss of control. 128.211.250.73 (talk) 20:36, 21 January 2008 (UTC)

[edit] History

Please if any 1 can, can you fill in the champ car blanks on my user page please. MotorSportMCMXC 21:00, 20 July 2006


A note here: In the "bankruptcy" section, there are a few very glaring factual errors.

CART (stock symbol MPH) as a company was put into banruptcy. A new company, Open Wheel Racing Series, purchased the assets of MPH (race contracts, race supplies, etc) from the bankrupt company, and also accepted to take on certain debts. "Champcar" and "CART" are two distinct and different series, and really merit two seperate wikipedia entries, as two very distinct entities, no different in the end from USAC and CART.

[edit] New Section Needed: Methonal Fuel can be dangerous

Methonal burns with an invisible flame. As such, it can be vary dangerous. I think a special section is needed to mention that and the precautions taken by safety crews. For instance, if you see a driver get out and start rolling around, he or she is presumed to be on fire.--Will 07:30, 24 July 2006 (UTC)

it's 'methanol' & the facts about methanol should not be in this article, the precautions taken in ChampCar should be Danlibbo 23:07, 31 October 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Is this really "worldwide"?

the box on the side claims that this is a worldwide sport however it is referred to as american, perhaps North American would be better? MatthewMain 15:40, 20 September 2006 (UTC)

Well as far as I know, they still have a race in Australia. They'll be racing in Europe again next year, and the Korean race that never was seems to be a Chinese race that may be. I'm willing to call that world wide.Mustang6172 04:01, 24 September 2006 (UTC)
I'm not. There's not a single race in Europe, South America, or Africa, & the fan base is about 99% North American. Trekphiler Flag of Canada 18:28, 6 February 2007 (UTC)
There are two races in Europe next year. F1 doesn't race in Africa. Considering someone tried to rob Toyota's F1 team in Brazil last year, I don't think Champ Car wants to race in South America. And that's a pretty small fan base to start with.Mustang6172 20:32, 6 February 2007 (UTC)
The fan base claim is a bit off, as well. While not as strong as Formula One, Champ Car DOES have a reasonably strong overseas following due to many European drivers being in the series. I'm told that foreign interest in Champ Car rised greatly when Justin Wilson began racing, but I can't confirm that. I don't know exactly WHAT percentage of CCWS's ratings are from overseas viewers, but I do know its WAY over 1%.
Champ car is ignored in Britain (and i would suggest the rest of Europe, due to similar conditions) mainly due to the availability of other forms of motorsport. I don't think that it can really be classed as worldwide as it doesn't have the same circus that follows F1 around the globe. F1 operates a policy of trying to make the sport as global as possible through rules such as no country allowed to have more than one grand prix and specifically targeting emerging markets in the middle and far east.
Sorry, but that's not true. Here in Britain there's been a reasonably large fanbase for quite some time and I believe the same is true for Europe. Anyway, the fact that there are races in the USA, Canada, Mexico, Australia, Belgium and the Netherlands is enough to justify its international status. Readro 00:51, 6 June 2007 (UTC)
I think ChampCar is a "west hemisphere" series, while F1 is clearly global. ChampCar has 7 USA, 3 Canada, 1 Mexico, 1 Australia and 2 European races in 2008. 11 of the 14 races are in North America, so it is not possible to call it global. Also it is quite generally ignored in Europe, as an automotive journalist even i cant recall 3 ddriver or team names from the series in a row. 212.154.125.30 (talk) 10:00, 29 January 2008 (UTC)
Global is not the same as international. The infobox states it is international, which is valid as there are races in the United States, Canada, Belgium, Spain, the Netherlands, Australia and Mexico. Also, you can't use your own experiences to denote notability; if you believe Champ Car is ignored in Europe then you are very much mistaken. Readro (talk) 11:38, 29 January 2008 (UTC)
I agree the series are international, but i still think ChampCar is a highly American style series. Also i just want to share my own experience as an insight. The popularity of the ChampCar in Europe can be derived from TV ratings of the live feeds. If there is no live feed, we can count the news about ChampCar in European press and compare with other open wheeler series such as F3, GP2 or Formula Ford. 212.154.125.30 (talk) 08:25, 30 January 2008 (UTC)

[edit] Do people believe this link belongs?

User 207.162.229.12 added "Champcar Hot News, Rumors, and Commentary" to the external link section. Since that section was strictly links to offical sites for the ChampCar series and races, I removed the link and brought it here for discussion.

It does not help that the user in question has been warned many times about vandalism and NPOV. Will (Talk - contribs) 19:45, 27 October 2006 (UTC)


Yes I believe the link does belong considering they insider information on Champ Car directly from the people who own and run it. They receive information regarding the series before anyone else on the street. I would add this site considering there very strong promotion of Champ Car, not to mention there long history with the organizing dating back before the IRL/Cart Split. I believe they are on the most definitive information of Champ Car news and rumors. Proxu01 17:06, 30 October 2006 (UTC)

I tend to lean to limiting external links to offical sites only. Will (Talk - contribs) 01:17, 31 October 2006 (UTC)


AR1 is a rumor site on par with a blog, no more and no less. It isn't an official site, that would be champcar.ws or similar. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 67.70.124.49 (talk) 23:13, 23 January 2008 (UTC)

[edit] Comparison with F1 POV

The phrase in question is "The Formula 1 grooved tyres are actually of a higher performance than the Champ Car tyres due to competition. The tyre manufacturers fight to produce a better tyre than the rival manufacturer in Formula 1, therefore making the grooved tyres of higher performance than Champ Car tyres."

Not only does that sound pro-F1 (or possibly anti-Champ Car), but it's also a little out dated. Does anyone else think it should be removed?Mustang6172 08:09, 14 February 2007 (UTC)

Yes - It is quite dated now agreed to be moved. 15th March 2007

I've taken a pass at copyediting this section; it's better, I think, but it still has a few problems. -- Mikeblas 14:23, 4 April 2007 (UTC)
F1 had only one tire manufacturer (Bridgestone) in 2008, so "tire manufacturer competition" is not relevant for 2008 season; but I subjectively agree the superior performance of grooved F1 tires, as the technology for F1 is always the top-of-the-line, and an F1 team has 10 times the budget a ChampCar team has for feedbacks to tire manufacturer. Also slicks will be back in 2009 F1 season, and they were tested in Jerez track last month. This month's F1 Racing magazine suggests that with slick tires (such as the ones in ChampCar) F1 cars will be about 2.5 second faster in a lap, and tests in Jerez partially confirmed this. 212.154.125.30 (talk) 11:38, 30 January 2008 (UTC)

[edit] Series Names

In the list of champions, the series is listed the the official full name at the time. I was fine with the listings by sanctioning body, but if we are going to do it this way, we need to get the names right, which is somewhat difficult.

I know in 2003, it was not Fedex championship series, it was CART Champ Car World series presented by bridgestone, or something like that.

I think 1997, and maybe later were PPG CART World Series, or something--RA64 13:48, 28 March 2007 (UTC)


[edit] Weight?

This article seems to contradict itself. The "Specifications" section lists the weight at 1385 pounds, while the "Comparison" section says the weight, with driver, is 1543 pounds. The rule book I have (from 2001) says the minimum weight is 1550 pounds at superspeedway courses, and 1525 pounds at other courses. Which is correct? Is it a matter of comparing dry, fuel-empty, and race-ready weights? -- Mikeblas 15:20, 4 April 2007 (UTC)

-- Neither is correct, and because of that both items have been replaced with up-to-date information from the 2007 season as of 04-04-07. With driver, the minimum weight for a 2007-spec Champ Car is currently 1741 lbs; that figure comes from 1575 lbs + the average driver weight, which this season is 166 lbs. Without the driver, each car's minimum weight is adjusted from 1575 lbs to reflect the variation of the driver's weight from the field average. The 2007 rulebook lists 1565 lbs as the target weight, but that has been changed to 1575 lbs via technical bulletin without re-publishing the rulebook. Ed Severson 13:32, 5 April 2007 (UTC)

Thanks, Ed! -- Mikeblas 19:11, 11 April 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Very Hot Rumor

I'm hearing rumors that Champ Car will file for bankruptcy in 48 hours to facilitate a merger with the IRL. The forum I discovered this on claimed Autoracing1 as the source, but I can't access their rumor page. Does anyone have some kind of information to confirm this?Mustang6172 (talk) 05:19, 12 February 2008 (UTC)

Nevermind. Miller is reporting it now.Mustang6172 (talk) 21:44, 12 February 2008 (UTC)

[edit] FYI - Champ Car merger into IRL deal signed

See: http://www.indycar.com/news/story.php?story_id=10557 —Preceding unsigned comment added by 63.175.18.130 (talk) 23:10, 22 February 2008 (UTC)

Amazingly little info available though apart from that deal done and Long Beach going ahead as last Champ Car event...--Amedeo Felix (talk) 22:39, 4 March 2008 (UTC)

[edit] 7 post shaker add

I would like to add a link to the 7 post shaker article in the see also list (or another area if thats more appropriate). Please let me know if this is ok and I will add it sometime soon. Thanks!!Rooney McFaddy (talk) 17:17, 4 March 2008 (UTC)

[edit] Name of Article

Surely its time to move the name back to CART.

CART/Champcar as an entity is finished and for most of its life, it was known as CART. In fact, for 24 years of its 28 years it was known as CART. ManfromDelmonte (talk) 14:27, 8 March 2008 (UTC)

Agreed Ronstew (talk) 15:40, 25 May 2008 (UTC)

[edit] Please think of the non-fans

I came here, completely ignorant about racing, only as a result of a news article I had read. I've read the whole article, which is mainly a history, and remain somewhat confused. The article is essentially a history of the infighting in the racing world, yet there is only a single mention of NASCAR. Now I think that NASCAR uses a different kind of car than this kind of racing, but it's simply not clear. There were a couple of references to something called an "open wheel" car, which I guess is this car's type, but that's not made very clear, I think.

The point is, the article comes across as written by very knowledgeable editors, but I'm constantly feeling like there are assumptions being made about what the reader knows. And not everyone who comes here is a fan. Please try to educate those of us who are ignorant. Thanks. Unschool (talk) 17:25, 20 April 2008 (UTC)