Talk:Chameria issue

From Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

This article is within the scope of the following WikiProjects:

Contents

[edit] Vickers

The number 2,771 victims, or 5,000 victims and the number 30-35,000 for evictees as mentioned by Vickers are stated by her to come from the CPA

According to statistics provided by the Chameria Association in Tirana, in total 2,771 Albanian civilians were killed during the1944-1945 attacks on their villages. As a result of these assaults, an estimated 28,000 Chams fled to Albania The Cham Issue - Albanian National & Property Claims in Greece, paper prepared for the British MoD, Defense Academy, 2002

Mazower, using independent sources, cites 18,000 evictees

the remaining inhabitants — some 18,000 — fled across the border into Albania. After The War Was Over: Reconstructing the Family, Nation and State in Greece, 1943-1960

Roudometof also disputes this number

4. The Cham refugees set up associations and clubs. These have been revitalized after the collapse of the communist regime in Albania. According to the local officials they claim that the original Chams were 30,000 to 35,000 and that today their descendants number close to 170,000 (Kallivertakis, 1995: 50). Biberaj (1998:15) mistakenly reports that, in the aftermath of World War 11, “The Greeks expelled some 30,000 Albanians (Chams) from Chameria in northern Greece, accusing them of having collaborated with Nazi invaders.” The figure of 30,000 is adopted from the Cham associations without checking the other sources used in the discussion in this chapter. Also, the Chams’ collaboration with the Germans is a fact, not an accusation.

Collective Memory, National Identity, and Ethnic Conflict Greece, Bulgaria, and the Macedonian Question. Victor Roudometof p..181-182

I included it nonetheless explaining that it is as claimed by the CPA alone.

Xenovatis (talk) 16:54, 13 February 2008 (UTC)

[edit] Nicholas Gage

While Gage is a good reporter Eleni is not an academic or news source. I suggest removing it under reliable sources. If there are any articles of his that provide the same evidence they could be used instead, otherwise a novel is not a reliable source. Xenovatis (talk) 12:44, 12 February 2008 (UTC)

[edit] Rename

The article was biased towards only one side of the many atrocities that occured during the Nazi occupation of Greece. Also, there are only 2 occurances of the term "Chamerian Massacre" in Google (outside wikipedia and other wiki mirrors), indicating that the term is not commonly used. sys < in 15:36, 3 March 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Organization

The article really needs to organize its sources. The citations are incomplete and need to be refined in order to ensure that the statements in the article are properly sourced. Deucalionite 14:48, 3 April 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Checking Sources

According to this quote from the 'cham albanians' article talk page , this source needs cross-checking against another :

I am not an expert on the issue per se but I have done extensive study of British SOE and US OSS activities in the Near East and Balkans during the war.

The long quote from Joseph Jacobs really leads the wikipeida reader astray. This eviction was specifically ordered by British liaison to EDES, Col. Chris Woodhouse, and he says so in his memiors. The British liason was not an advisor but the de facto commander as London and SOE controlled all supply and funds to the EDES resistance. In fact he had been sent to replace Col. Eddie Myers, who London believed was not attacking the Nazi allied Albanian's forcably enough. The British at the time in Balkans were working at cross interests and often in direct opposition to the US OSS work. The OSS was doing things the British did not like, like supporting non Monarchist resistanc groups, helping Jews evacuate to Palestine, etc. Jacobs also was has to be taken with a grain of salt. None of his reporting is actually first hand. Retrieved from "http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Talk:Cham_Albanians" —The preceding unsigned comment was added by Hjkhu789 (talk • contribs) 10:53, 3 May 2007 (UTC).


[edit] Interesting (Greek) article

There is an interesting article regarding the recent history of the Chams (especially the WWII events) in one of the most well established Greek newspapers. It was written from Stathis Kalivas who is Professor of Political Science at the Yale University of the USA and presents events from a book of a Greek historian Eleftheria Manta. According to this article E. Manta has made the one and only thorough historic investigation on the subject. The book was published in 2004, the article is dated 2005/12/04. Ndemou (talk) 12:44, 20 February 2008 (UTC)

Thanks for that. I'll try to include the relevant information.Xenovatis (talk) 14:04, 20 February 2008 (UTC)

[edit] Ethnic cleansing

Added category ethnic cleansing. I realize it is possibly anachronistic since the term wasn't coined yet but 1. this is what it amounted to 2. Wiki uses the term for other events pre-1990's 3. Dr Kalivas of Yale has termed it such, although it is on a Greek source so I am not sure it can be used here, (article above in this page) Xenovatis (talk) 21:35, 26 February 2008 (UTC)