Talk:Chaguanas

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I see a red link to Convict Depot. Would it be appropriate to change to penal colony, or are the two things rather different? --King of All the Franks 06:01, 23 December 2005 (UTC)

Are you telling me you Live in Trinidad and do not know who KEN MARLON CHARLES IS?! KMC. he wrote several local riddims, including the very recent riddim "Rocket Launcher" which is experiencing very frequent airplay on local radio! He was even signed by an International Label and redid "Soul on Fire" with Beenie Man. He signed Diamond Cut, Xebulon just to name a few. Of Course you know Blackie who sang "Ah Hook" last year carnival! And Marlon Asha who sang on the signs riddim, and has numerous other songs that get constant airtime on the radio! Are you sure you are Trinidadian? These are definitely Notable Celebrities!

And you are saying that Ryan Mohammed, Blazer, Blackie and Marlon Asha are also the most notable people Chaguanas, as befits an encyclopaedia article? KMC might barely make a list of notable people from Chaguanas, but that would be a pretty long list, which wouldn't be appropriate for this article. Guettarda 20:22, 12 July 2006 (UTC)

Contents

[edit] Discussion on Notable Celebrities

Discussion directed toward Guettarda with all due respect and in the manner appropriate for a discussion. Posted by Ryorye.

Are you from Chaguanas or even Trinidad? In terms of recognizable people within the entertainment industry, of course Blazer, Blackie and Marlon Asha are! Blazer had a smash soca hit in 2003 with "Wrong Timing", he followed up with "Stages" which was also popular. This year he release a song called "Somebody" featuring some of Trinidad's biggest soca stars, Bunji Garlin and Maximus Dan. This video gets heavy airplay on synergy TV as well. You can ask any Trinidadian. Marlon Asha was one of the first local reggae talents and release the hit single "Ganja Farmer". That song was created waves around the country and I can assure the vast majority familiar with the popular culture in Trinidad sang to that song until it became outplayed. I am certain these names are not only notable for Trinidad, but perhaps even for the UK where they have toured! Please sir, check your facts and know your local celebrities.

  1. Please review WP:NPA
  2. They are still very minor in the grand scheme of things. No, I'm not from Chaguanas, though I lived there for 3 years. If you want to list notable people from Chaguanas, don't start with a list of people who, by your own admission, aren't terribly notable. A list should have some sense of balance. Start with the people who actually are notable, on the grand scheme of things. Guettarda 15:59, 13 July 2006 (UTC)

First off I think it very unreasonable you intentionally choose to leave these people out. You asked for evidence, I gave you evidence. Secondly, by no means have I personally attacked you, I by no means do I intend to or want to, so don't get me wrong. I think it very reasonable that we can include these entertainers and let other people know that they came from Chaguanas. I read it in a lot of different articles, its good trivia for some people to read, and I'm certain a lot of people would be glad to know it. So, apart from it being very informative, I think it also sheds good light on the entertainment industry in Trinidad, coming from Chaguanas. You mention the Divali Nagar, Masala Radio, V.S Naipul, all these people under entertainment, coming from a specific ethnicity, and you reject other stars who you consider to be "less notable". One can only begin to ask questions. I ask you kindly to think with an open mind. It isn't fair to have a 'bully' determining what he thinks should or should not be on this page. These are facts that these people are popular in Trinidad (seeing that the article is based ON TRINIDAD)and they all come from Chaguanas.

IF any one has to "EDIT" this information I would like it to be someone else and not you, because clearly we disagree. It is not you alone who decides what is or is not on this page. Thank You Very Kindly.

  1. The point of WP:NPA is to deal with the issues, not the people involved. Rather than trying to understand the issue here, you prefer to aim your insults at me.
  2. The first issue here is notability. Are you seriously claiming that these four people are the four most notable people from Chaguanas, or four of the most notable people from Chaguanas? If not, then listing them as notable unbalances the article. If, on the other hand, you believe that they are among the most notable people to have come from Chaguanas, then you need to provide clear evidence for this - provide some reliable sources that consider these to be the most notable people from Chaguanas.
  3. The second point is one of balance. These people are, for the most part, fairly minor. If you include these people, you should include everyone more prominent than them. That would make for a very long list which would unbalance the article. Guettarda 05:23, 14 July 2006 (UTC)


This page supposed to be a discussion page, yet I don't see anyone else joining in apart from the two of us. If we both disagree, how do we settle this if no one else cares to participate? Its clear to me that these people are popular in Trinidad, especially at present, and this is what wikipedia is about. Its about having up to the minute information. If these people are not considered "Notable Celebrities", perhaps I have choosen a wrong title, but I firmly believe these people are notable in the Entertainment industry in Trinidad. Soca, Reggae and Dancehall, music on the whole, is a strong part of our culture and we take great pride in it. These people, KMC in particular, has pioneered local music and his significance to our culture is immense. We treat Carnival as the "Greatest Show on Earth", just to show you how much it means to our country, and there is no difference with the music that goes with it. Speaking from a 100% Trinidadian viewpoint, I would like to put this in the article. If you object sir you have to understand that is your opinion and sometimes in life you don't always agree with the other person. I kindly ask that you let the information stand. Thank you to all the readers.

Have a look at some of the links in the welcome message on your Talk page. Read WP:NPOV, especially the part about undue weight and WP:NOT. Have a look at some of the other articles about towns and cities in Wikipedia. Stop and think for a moment what should be in an encyclopaedia article. Trivia isn't encyclopaedic. Adding a long trivia section like you did unbalances the article. Wikipedia should not be used for promotional purposes - should not be used to promote anything.
Wikipedia isn't about having "up to the minute information". Absolutely not. That isn't what an encyclopaedia is about.
You say that "I firmly believe these people are notable in the Entertainment industry in Trinidad". That isn't the point here. This article isn't about the entertainment industry in Trinidad. It's about the town of Chaguanas. Information in the article should be balanced in that regard. Are these people really that significant in the grand scheme of things? Are these really the most important people important to Chaguanas? That's who should be mentioned in an article about Chaguanas. If you wanted to write about the entertainment industry in Chaguanas, it should be about the people who are most important to the entertainment industry in Chaguanas. And, it shouldn't be in this article - a general article like this should have a couple lines about the entertainment industry. It's a matter of balance.
If you want an outside view, you can file a request for comment. Pick the right section, follow the instructions, and post a note here when you have done so. The most likely reason that no one else has responded is either no one else is watching this article. There's plenty that could be added to this article which is encyclopaedic. But this stuff just isn't. Guettarda 16:40, 14 July 2006 (UTC)

[edit] A solution

This is a simple edit war: Ryorye continually adds information; Guettarda continually reverts. It all boils down to whether the information added belongs in the article. The information in question is clearly not suitable for the above article - it unbalances it and is a reference to several individuals within the town, not the town itself.

There is no reason, however, why a compromise situation cannot be reached as follows. Many towns have, as part of their articles, a simple list of prominent people associated with the town, each linked to their own article if such exists. Such a list could easily be added to this article. That list could include the names of the people added by Ryorye, who could then, if s/he so wishes, create articles for these people. In that way, they will be linked from the Chaguanas article, and if they are notable enough for Wikipedia entries then those entries will exist. It will also allow for other people associated with Chaguanas - V. S. Naipaul, for instance - to be easily linked from this article without unbalancing it.

BTW, Ryorye, I've removed the RfC template you attempted to add to this page but left completely blank (thankfully, given that it wasn't subst'ed). In any case, since there weren't two people trying to mediate this dispute it wouldn't have been accepted as an RfC. Grutness...wha? 01:26, 15 July 2006 (UTC)

I have no problem with including a list - I just think it should be a short list of people who are actually prominent. Guettarda 16:32, 15 July 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Comment

I have read both sides of the argument going on in this page. First of all I would like to comment that comments which are offense are out of place in this discussion. Guettarda is not a "bully" and to call him one is disrespectful. He is not acting on his own, instead he is following Wikipedia policy which he clearly states in his arguments. Another thing, to insinuate that he is less then 100% Trinidadian just because he follows policy is unfair. Guettarda has earned his promotion to administrator because the community has faith in his judgements. He has contributed to more Trinidad related articles then anyone else in the Pedia.

When an article is written about a place, in this case Chaguanas, the norm is to only mention historical figures whose actions have contributed to the social and historical developement of the region. Normally, people who are currently famous are placed in a "List of famous Trinidadians" and that's it.

We recently had a case similar to this. Even though famous Puerto Ricans are not mentioned in the articles of their respective hometowns (unless their contributions have passed the test of time-lasting). They are placed in the List of Puerto Ricans. The list got out of control because people kept adding names of people with 15 minutes of fame. We therefore created a List of notable Puerto Ricans with a strict criteria.

In other words, if you feel that Blazer, Blackie and Marlon Asha are very notable, write an article about them (if the case needs be) with verifiable sources which back up your claims (otherwise it is considered POV) and then add them to your list of people but not to the articules of Chaguanas or Trinidad, unless you can prove (with verification) that their contriutions have had a social or cultural impact on any of these areas. Wikipedia is not a democracy, Wikipedia is an encyclopedia which requires verfiable sources. Tony the Marine 01:53, 15 July 2006 (UTC)

(P.S. It is also Wikipedia policy that when a person writes in a talk page, he or she must sign their comments with their user name.Tony the Marine 01:53, 15 July 2006 (UTC))

[edit] Ryorye's Release

Thank you everyone for intervening, I fully appreciate all your comments and suggestions. Just this morning I was reading an article about Bolton (England)(http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bolton) on Wikipedia, and I came across a section at the end of the article entitled "Famous People from Bolton". I thought to myself, why are these people more famous or worthy of mentioning if KMC, Blazer and Marlon Asha, who has contributed so much to our culture, are apparently not. I feel it within my right, and following the solution and advice given by Grutness - "Many towns have, as part of their articles, a simple list of prominent people associated with the town, each linked to their own article if such exists. Such a list could easily be added to this article. That list could include the names of the people added by Ryorye, who could then, if s/he so wishes, create articles for these people" , to create a list of famous people from Chaguanas.

I would aslo like to apologise to anyone who I came across as disrespectful to. That was not my intention and I am new to the editorial section of Wikipedia.

I would like to continue contributing to Wikipedia's articles. I ask for guidance in editing, and I would to place my request to become an adminstrator.

Thank You Ryorye

New Post-------------

Ah, That's actually good! Never knew Scot Sealy was from Chaguanas. Very informative. Good Job! What a great article!

--Ryorye 04:25, 16 July 2006 (UTC) With regard to Famous People from Chaguanas, please refer to WP:MUSIC

[edit] New Post

Problem Statement: I think Ken Marlon Charles (KMC), Blazer and Marlon Asha all qualify as notable musicians in accordance to WP:MUSIC.

Another user disagrees and refuse to agree. I have tried reasoning, tried compromise instead an all out silly editiing war continues to take place with no logical reason. Hence I request that someone intervenes so that my section of the editing can stay in the article. Thank You.

That isn't the issue - the issue is whether they are among the most notable people connected with Chaguanas. They aren't. Imagine the NYC article if it listed everyone who was notable enough to merit a Wikipedia article. A "list of people" section can only include the most prominent people. Guettarda 15:54, 20 July 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Vandalism

Vandalism is the conspicuous defacement or destruction of a structure or symbol against the will of the owner/governing body.

A certain user has removed verifiable content added by user User:Ryorye. This same user thinks the information that he adds is the only correct information and must stay. This article is being kept by someone not of democratic views. No one user owns this article, please let power not stand in your way.

Referring to WP:MUSIC, A musician or ensemble (note that this includes a band, singer, rapper, orchestra, hip hop crew, DJ, musical theatre group, etc.) is notable if it meets any one of the following criteria:

  • Has been placed in rotation nationally by any major radio network.
  • Has been the subject of a half hour or longer broadcast on a national radio network.
  • Has gone on an international concert tour, or a national concert tour in at least one large or medium-sized country,[1] reported in notable and verifiable sources.

Everyone living in Trinidad and Tobago will know that Marlon Asha, KMC and Blazer has been placed in rotation nationally by the country's major networks.

That all three of these artistes have been the subject of a half hour or longer brodcast on several national radio networks.

And that all three have gone on an international concert tour in the UK.

This article is being dictated by someone not of Trinidad and Tobago. Baring in mind it is ok for internationals to edit the article, if the article is being mantained properly and unbiased. Unfortunately this is not the case.

Verify this information yourself if you so desire. These musicians are proud products of Chaguanas and will be noted in the article.

Thank You. Ryorye 14:57, 19 July 2006 (UTC)

Please read WP:VAND regarding what consitutes "vandalism" in a Wikipedia context. Also have a look at the "Undue Weight" section at WP:NPOV.
As for your other allegation - (i) where people are from is totally irrelevant to writing articles about a place, (ii) I have written most of the content related to T&T in Wikipedia (including the vast majority of what's in this article), and (iii) your allegation that I am not from Trinidad is quite simply an intentional falsehood. Guettarda 16:00, 20 July 2006 (UTC)
Anyway, isn't Blazer far more notable as a murderer than a musician? Guettarda 20:12, 20 July 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Edit Conflict

If the user constantly removing my information really cared about Wikipedia or this article, he would have realised:

  • High-frequency reversion wars make the page history less useful, waste space in the database, make it hard for other people to contribute, and flood recent changes and watchlists. Sock puppets may not be used to violate this rule. Please request protection rather than reverting. Violation of this rule may lead to protection of the page on the version preferred by the non-violating party; blocking; or investigation by the Arbitration Committee.
  • If a user makes an addition which you consider POV or generally bad, rather than revert them and hope not to be reverted again, a more productive option is to move their content to the article's talk page where it can be discussed. While the content is still removed from the article, it is a less harsh move because the content is still viewable outside of history, and is more easily referenced in discussion

I have stated all my claims on the talk page, a solution was given but none the less blatantly ignored by the user.

Helpful advice to administrators abusing their powers: It's one thing to take an interest in an article that you maintain on your watchlist. Maybe you really are an expert or you just care about the topic a lot. But when this watchfulness crosses a certain line, then you're overdoing it.

Ryorye 22:56, 19 July 2006 (UTC)

You have "stated your claims". I have explained (at length) what's wrong with them. You insist on re-inserting material that doesn't belong in the article. Who is it that is cluttering the article history? Let's see...
  • Infobox
    • I put that together
  • Lead section
    • I wrote that
  • History
    • I wrote most of that
  • Geography
    • I wrote that
...etc. It's highly amusing that you talk about my cluttering the edit history, when you are the one who is single-mindedly insisting on adding trivia to the article, while vandalising other articles. If you want to contribute useful content to Wikipedia, please do so. If you want to add useful content to this article, please do so. But stop (a) inserting trivia, and (b) complaining about my removal of your trivia and your ridiculous claims that I shouldn't be editing this article. Guettarda 16:08, 20 July 2006 (UTC)

[edit] New Post

I have no problems with you adding your "Harry Harnarine" (with no claim to fame) to the article. In fact, go ahead and add as you please once they adhere to the standards of the encyclopedia. You told me to request a RfC, I did that, Grutness lended his advice, but you are adamant these people are not notable in your eyes, and I am saying they are. If you look at different articles on towns all over Wikipedia, a list of notable people is present, which includes artistes and musicians etc. To prove to you these people are worth noting, I copy and pasted the criteria this very encylopedia set for notable musicians. Quite surprisingly they qualified on more than three counts, surpassing the number they needed. Yet, only God knows why, you refuse to let these names stand claiming all sorts of things. Somehow, including these 3 names affects the article in a really massive way. If anything at all, these names complete the article. I respect what you have done for out articles, honestly, and I thank you for even creating an article on Chaguanas. I know your intentions are good but I firmly believe you are acting "abusive" at times. You constantly revert all my edits and we have both put forth our points of view. Now it is time for a mediator to resolve our dispute. Thank You. --Ryorye 22:51, 20 July 2006 (UTC)

As per Grutness's suggestion, there is now a "prominent people" section. Are you saying that Blazer is as prominent as Naipaul? Are you saying that these people are among the ten most prominent people from Chaguanas? That's a ridiculous assertion. To include them while leaving everyone else out is to assert that they are the most notable people from Chaguanas. That is quite simply false. The addition degrades the quality of the article. There are two ways to balance this - either to add everyone as prominent, or leave them out. Adding everyone as prominent as these people would unbalance the article (and make it overly long). Consequently, in the interest of article quality and in the interest of maintaining an article that complies with policy, this trivia should not be in the article.
What about this are you unable to understand? Please lay off your insults and false accusations. You have ignored all of my explanations and repeatedly inserted trivia into this article, vandalised other articles and abused deletion templates. Wikipedia isn't a playground and it isn't a vehicle for self-promotion. Please figure out what Wikipedia is about, read the links I provided. Stick to that. Guettarda 23:40, 20 July 2006 (UTC)

I have not insulted you, neither am I raising other matters of interest. I soley discuss this incident in particular. If 1000 people need to be in the list as you think, well feel free to add them. I am simply adding 3 musicians who I feel like contributing. That is my contribution to the article. If someone else feels his or her notable person be added, that is left up to the individual, providing he or she states their case clearly and their reason for including them. Marlon Asha, Blazer and KMC all qualify as listing in this article. I have no business with anyone else, that is a matter for who so ever feels to take it up. Thank You. --Ryorye 00:44, 21 July 2006 (UTC)

  • "I have not insulted you" - false. You accused me of "vandalism", you have accused me of abuse of admin powers, you have claimed that I am not a Trini...just to name a few.
  • "neither am I raising other matters of interest" - no idea what you mean by this.
  • "If 1000 people need to be in the list as you think, well feel free to add them" - if you had read the links I had provided and what I have said, you would understand why that is inappropriate.
  • "I am simply adding 3 musicians who I feel like contributing" - again, as I have explained (repeatedly) the additions are not appropriate to the article - they would unbalance the article,
  • "That is my contribution to the article. If someone else feels his or her notable person be added, that is left up to the individual, providing he or she states their case clearly and their reason for including them." - that isn't the way to write a Wikipedia article. In addition to all the other links I have provided, please review Wikipedia:What_Wikipedia_is_not#Wikipedia_is_not_an_indiscriminate_collection_of_information.
  • "Marlon Asha, Blazer and KMC all qualify as listing in this article" - not, they don't - the article is about Chaguanas, not about Musicians from Chaguanas. So no, you're wrong (again, if you had bothered to read the links I had provided you might have figured that out).
  • "I have no business with anyone else, that is a matter for who so ever feels to take it up" - I don't understand what you mean by this. Are you saying that all you are interested in doing here is getting your favoured bit of trivia into the article? If that's the case, then you are editing this article for the wrong reason. Guettarda 01:13, 21 July 2006 (UTC)

[edit] New Post

You are definitely right when you claim to have mentioned this several times before. Yes, I have read it each time you put it. To include them while leaving everyone else out is to assert that they are the most notable people from Chaguanas. That is quite simply false. The addition degrades the quality of the article.

You assume it degrades the quality of the article. If you were to check any state, any city, and major town across the globe on wikipedia, I can assure you there is a short to lengthy section listing the Entertainers, Musicians, Famous People, Prominent People from that place. Some of those people are not even on wikipedia. Some of those people have not even achieved the success that Marlon Asher and KMC have achieved. In my opinion, including this information compliments the article beautifully. (For who ever, please check Toronto, Bolton, Leeds, etc, you may be surprised to see such lists present there, with people who Guettarda may not agree with as well perhaps.) --Ryorye 02:16, 21 July 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Chaguanas Conflict

What sense is a "third person's view" when that "third person" is clearly a friend of one of the editers? This article, I continue to suggest and re-iterate, is being controlled by one person.

Marlon Asher is a break through artiste for local culture and a stepping stone in the music industry of proud Trinidad and Tobago and is being denied his stature because a particular person fails to recognise his accomplishments. A very sad day for T&T. However, I can assure Trinidadians, his name will be remembered, including in this article. --Ryorye 18:36, 22 July 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Proposal

I am here on behalf of my client, Ryore. There seems to be a certain amount of dispute as to whether certain musicians should be included in a section on notable people from this island. In resolution to this, I suggest that the section include for the time being who are notable enough to warrant their own article on Wikipedia. If it transpires that there are too many people meeting this criterion to be included in the article, we can create a seperate list article, retaining the most notable in the main article. --David Mestel(Talk) 20:41, 22 July 2006 (UTC)

How does this solve the underlying policy issues? Guettarda 04:13, 23 July 2006 (UTC)
Do you mean the issue of whether there should be a list at all? --David Mestel(Talk) 05:37, 23 July 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Ryorye

Hopefully my advocate will have something to say on the issue as well, but I also see it necessary to express my point.

Have you read all the other articles on cities and town on Wikipedia? I am asking? I can guarantee you there is a list, but thats not even the issue. The issue is whether or not these people qualify to enter this list or not, is that right? The issue is also that adding these people will "unbalance" the article.

What criteria do you suggest for the list? Be specific and not vague. Thank you. --Ryorye 04:25, 23 July 2006 (UTC)

I have explained this repeatedly. As I have asked before, please read WP:NPOV, especially the section on undue weight. Guettarda 04:29, 23 July 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Famous people list

I have read WP:NPOV and I am also very sure my advocate is familiar with it as well. I have not inserted any biased views on a topic into the article. A list of Famous People certainly is not a biased point of view. You probably think that the thought of Marlon Asher being significant or famous is held by a minority view?

It is clear that Marlon Asher is a notable reggae singer from Trinidad. Even you cannot dispute that. He qualifies for his own article on Wikipedia as a musician having met the criteria. What I am simply doing, is adding the element of a List to the Chaguanas article. A list of famous people from Chaguanas. This list is present in most articles about towns and cities. It is clear that you doubt the validity of the list. It is also clear that you do not think Marlon Asher or Blazer fit into a list worthy of Chaguanas. That behaviour certainly is frowned upon by WP:NPOV. I am entering these names, soley based on facts. Marlon Asher is a notable musician and he comes from Chaguanas.

Again, to re-iterate to you, I have not inserted a point of view, but rather a list of famous people. Marlon Asher is famous. Do you wish for me to rename it as Notable people? Marlon Asher is notable. I have not gone on to describe his life or career, because this has already been done on Marlon Asher. It is a list, of relatively small size. I hope eventually you can understand.

SUMMARY

  • I insert list
  • You remove list
  • You ask two of your associates to express their views
  • Both agree a list is in order
  • I re-insert list
  • You remove list
  • Advocate intervenes
  • You over rule advocate

What is the next step? Ryorye 06:35, 23 July 2006 (UTC)

You familiarise yourself with policy and stop making edits which unbalance the article. Simple enough. To being with, , as I have said before, over and over, your list biases the article because it asserts that these people are the most prominent people from Chaguanas, when in fact they are only minor celebrities at best. One is known for one hit and a murder. There are far more prominent people than that. To include these people, while leaving out others, asserts that these people are more prominent than the others who have not been included. This violates policy.
The only way to avoid this bias would be to list everyone who is as prominent as are these people. That would seriously unbalance the article. Again, I have said this before.
So, to correct your summary
  1. Your insert a list of "prominent people" which includes yourself, but which leaves out a Nobel Prize winning novelist and two key political figures from the independence era. Since these people are not notable, I remove them, and explain why.
  2. You keep re-insering the information.
  3. I advise you to file an RFC if you are unhappy with my explanations. I ask other editors to review the issue. One of them suggests adding a "prominent people" section.
  4. You re-add your biased list, with one other addition.
  5. I clean up the list, making it more balanced.
  6. You return to adding your information.
  7. You ask for an advocate to intervene on your behalf. You post false information in your request for assistance, including claims that you had filed an RFC, when you had done nothing of the sort.
  8. Your advocate repeats your position, without addressing any of the policy issues which I have raised here.
I have no idea what you mean when you say I "overruled" your advocate. An advocate has no power to make any ruling. The solution is simple - stop trying to unbalance the article, stop inserting trivia, and the problem is solved. Guettarda 07:05, 23 July 2006 (UTC)

[edit] List

  • On wikipedia, one user does not write the whole article, people contribute the pieces of information they know. Hence, I contribute 4 names to a list.

because it asserts that these people are the most prominent people from Chaguanas -Never said that, however I have stated each and every time the list is Famous people from Chaguanas, they are famous. This violates policy. - How you interpret the policy. That would seriously unbalance the article. - Nope, the artilce is lengthy already, the list is relaitve in size.

  • This list does not violate policy.
  • This list does not unbalance the article.

You continue to suggest such a list would be too lengthy, if it gets lengthy we will act from there.

I do not "assert" these people to be of any greater importance than anyone, I simply state they are notable and are from Chaguanas. <---------MY CONTRIBUTION. —Preceding unsigned comment added by Ryore (talk • contribs)

The principle of collaborative editing generally means that an article is written by many people. People do, as you say "contribute the pieces of information they know". However, as per WP:NOT, Wikipedia is not a random collection of information. Random people add random bits of information. However, that isn't the way that most quality articles are written.
By listing these four, and only these four, you are asserting that these people are the most prominent people. By leaving others out of the list you are implying that they are not notable. One could correct this by adding other people who are equally famous. However, and excessively long list of prominent people would unbalance the artice.
  • "[I]f it gets lengthy we will act from there" isn't a viable strategy for writing an article.
  • "I do not "assert" these people to be of any greater importance than anyone, I simply state they are notable and are from Chaguanas" - how do you come to that conclusion? You have added a list of prominent people. There are two editorial decisions involved in making a list - what you include and what you omit.
  • "[T]he artilce is lengthy already, the list is relaitve in size" - a list of 50-100 people would quite clearly unbalance the article. There are easily that many people in Chaguanas who are as prominent as some of the people in your list.
Guettarda 16:04, 23 July 2006 (UTC)
Fine. Come up with the people you think should also be included, and if there are too many for the main article, we can discuss which are the most notable. --David Mestel(Talk) 16:26, 23 July 2006 (UTC)
What? You want a complete list of people who are as notable as non-notable people? Guettarda 16:35, 23 July 2006 (UTC)
Are you saying that these people are not at all notable, i.e. that they fail WP:MUSIC? --David Mestel(Talk) 17:11, 23 July 2006 (UTC)
No, I am saying that in the grand scheme of things they aren't notable. Maybe notable enough for inclusion in Wikipedia (I'd leave that up to AFD), but (a) not every person who might make WP's notability guidelines have Wikipedia articles, and (b) not every such person is included in articles about their town/city. Guettarda 17:35, 23 July 2006 (UTC)

[edit] List

  • The list qualifies to be in the article.
  • The people in the list qualify to be in the list

Ryorye 18:37, 23 July 2006 (UTC) 18:35, 23 July 2006 (UTC)

You need to rethink your stance. [Irrelevant material added as an attack removed by Guettarda]

Ryorye 19:07, 23 July 2006 (UTC)

Please address the relevant issues. Talk pages are not for attacking editors. Please desist. Try addressing the policy issues. Guettarda 19:16, 23 July 2006 (UTC)
Sorry, just thought that showing the background events of the user made the case a whole lot clearer. It gave much more insight as to the editer and his behaviour pattern judging from other articles, but you are right, let us stay to the facts. I have not "attacked" you. Ryorye 19:20, 23 July 2006 (UTC)
If you think when starting in article, you start with the finished verison or a complete version you are wrong. The same will go for a list. If i start a list, it does not mean the list is final. It is subject to addition. So if I add 3 or 4 people, it does not mean that is where the list ends, do not assume that. It would be a shame if everytime an article starts up, it gets deleted because not everything is listed on the said topic. Articles can expand, so too can lists. For the time being, the list conists of 4 people, it can expand if other users share their information. In the event that the list exceeds a desired limit, the list would be put on a separate page with a link in the article. Ryorye 20:12, 23 July 2006 (UTC)
I see, you are now an expert on Wikipedia. Thank your for sharing your wisdom. However, your fundamental assumptions are flawed. Guettarda 21:27, 23 July 2006 (UTC)

[edit] List per David

Here's a partial list as per David's request. I will expand it as time permits

  1. Basdeo Panday
  2. Manohar Ramsaran
  3. Winston Dookeran
  4. Hamza Rafeeq
  5. Hulsie Bhaggan
  6. Manic Ramsaran
  7. Gopaul Boodhan
  8. Surujrattan Rambachan
  9. Ramlal Bajnath
  10. Orlando Nagessar
  11. Falisha Isahak
  12. Ramesh Ramadhan
  13. Patricia Baptiste
  14. Winston Siriram
  15. Bernard Bailey
  16. Ronald Heera
  17. Vijay Kalloo
  18. Vinoo Boodram
  19. Dave Seeram
  1. Karamchand Gookool
  2. Roshad Kasmally
  3. Siew Rambarran
  4. Bhim Ramsingh
  5. Deonarine Baboolal
  6. Noel Blake
  7. Mulchan Seuchan
  8. Canon Max Murphy
  9. Pastor Winston Cuffie
  10. Pundit Ramesh Tewarie
  11. Harrynanan Ramnarine
  12. Paras Ramoutar
  13. Swami Satchidananda
  14. RaviJi
  15. Bro. Patrick Dominic Brunnock
  16. Tyrone Kalpee
  17. Wilbur Balgobin
  18. Kenneth Medford
  19. Nick Medford
  20. Indar Bedaisee
  1. Alvin Seereeram
  2. Ved Seereeram
  3. Towfeek Ali
  4. Ramdoolarie Maharaj
  5. Ajeet Praimsingh
  6. Reginald Dumas
  7. Shastri Maharaj
  8. Ravi Jadoonanan
  9. Dannell Flaveny
  10. Mahadeo Bodoe
  11. Dudnath Ramkissoon
  12. Prem Beharry
  13. Niranjan Bhaggan
  14. Robert Sheppard
  15. Rae Furlonge
  16. Selwyn Alexis
  17. George Maharaj
  18. Balkrishna Naipaul
  19. Jahson Atiba Alemu
  20. Brother Benedict Taylor

Guettarda 21:13, 23 July 2006 (UTC)

Thanks very much. Could you add a brief statement of why they are notable next to them (for example, "Foo, Nobel peace prize winner"). That would be great. --David Mestel(Talk) 05:24, 24 July 2006 (UTC)
Seriously? Isn't that asking a bit much? You asked me to waste half a day looking this stuff up and you can't be bothered to make any contribution to it? Ok, I'll add as time permits. Please get your "client" to act in good faith while I am doing this and stop edit-warring. Guettarda 15:32, 24 July 2006 (UTC)
  1. Basdeo Panday - Member of Parliament for Couva North, which covers Western Chaguanas. Has represented Chaguanas in the Parliament of Trinidad and Tobago since 1976. Served as Prime Minister of Trinidad and Tobago from 1995-2001, as Leader of the Opposition from 1976-1977, 1978-1986, 1989-1995 and 2001-2006, as a Cabinet Minister from 1986-1988, etc. Lawyer and trade unionist.
  2. Manohar Ramsaran [1] - Member of Parliamanet for Chaguanas since 1995. Former Cabinet minister and sports administrator.
  3. Winston Dookeran - Member of Parliament for Chaguanas 1981-1991, Cabinet Minister 1986-1991. Former Governor of the Central Bank.
  4. Hulsie Bhaggan [2] - former MP for Chaguanas.
  5. Hamza Rafeeq [3] - Member of Parliament for Caroni Central (eastern Chaguanas), former Cabinet minister
  6. Manic Ramsaran [4] former Member of Parliament for Caroni East (which at that time covered eastern Chaguanas), prominent Chaguanas business man, from a family of prominent Chaguanas businessmen.
  7. Surujrattan Rambachan [5] - Mayor of Chaguanas, former Ambassador to Brazil.
  8. Orlando Nagessar [6] - Borough councillor, former mayor of Chaguanas
  9. Gopaul Boodhan [7] - Borough councillor.
  10. Patricia Baptiste [8] - Borough councillor.
  11. Bernard Bailey [9] - Borough councillor.
  12. Ronald Heera [10] - Borough councillor.

[edit] Citing Sources

  • What criteria are you using that make these people notable?
  • Please use reliable and reputable sources other than the ones you are using.
  • Links to articles rather than the articles themselves are not accepted, partly because the article may no longer exist.
  • The websites used to cite are not reliable sources, please review reliable and reputable sources and WP:V for more information on citing verifiable sources.

[edit] Helpful Tips

Check multiple sources

Because conscious and unconscious biases are not always self-evident, you shouldn't necessarily be satisfied with a single source. Find another one and cross-check. If multiple independent sources agree and they have either no strong reason to be biased, or their biases are at cross purposes, then you may have a reliable account.

Finding good sources may require some effort

Until more authors publish online, and more material is uploaded, some of the most reliable and informative sources are still available only in printed form. If you can't find good sources on the web, try a local library or bookstore. Major university libraries usually have larger collections than do municipal libraries.

Information Courtesy Wikipedia, and Ryorye 22:52, 24 July 2006 (UTC)


Thank you, Ryorye 22:49, 24 July 2006 (UTC)

Maybe you should try reading what your advocate asked of me. Please do not vandalise my comments. Thanks. Guettarda 23:33, 24 July 2006 (UTC)

  • Maybe you should try reading the San Fernando, Trinidad and Tobago article where it cleary has Basdeo Panday as a prominent "San Fernandian". Tricks are not waranted here. Please come up with a real list and verify the people you "claim" come from Chaguanas, really come from here. You are degrading the articles quality, especially when you do not have the relevant sources to back up your claims. Even if all these people really do exist, you have not shown any proof that they are from Chaguanas thus far. I question the validity and accuracy of your insertion especially after contradicting information regarding where the very first person you listed, Basdeo Panday, is really from. Chaguanas or San Fernando?

Thanks, Ryorye 00:11, 25 July 2006 (UTC)

"He (Basdeo Panday) was born in St. Julien Village in Princes Town..." [1] Not too good for a start.

Ryorye 00:21, 25 July 2006 (UTC)

I take this this means that you believe that Rio Claro-born KMC should not be in this article either Guettarda 02:46, 25 July 2006 (UTC)

  • Yes, I know this, he moved to Chaguanas in 1996 and still lives there to this day.
"KMC: Yeah, I am from Rio Claro, born and grow, but I live in Chaguanas for the past ten years. Bus out on the music scene in 1998. That was when I get a break." [2]
  • He currently lives in Chaguanas, for the past 10 years, and all his contributions to music and the society has been done in his time at Chaguanas. Does this qualify him to be on the list, should such a long list exist?

Do you really want that list (the one you created) linked to the Chaguanas article?

Hmmm, interesting. First you say that not being born in Chaguanas is reason for exclusion, now you say it isn't. You have to come better than that - at least try to keep your arguments consistent from one minute to the next. Guettarda 04:15, 25 July 2006 (UTC)

Fair is fair. KMC is not originally from Chaguanas. It probably is not fair to include him because he is not originally from here, and not based on his notablility or merit. The case continues for Marlon Asher, and whoever else comes up. Ryorye 04:36, 25 July 2006 (UTC)

Asher isn't notable enough for inclusion. Inclusion of some but not all people of equal notability would violate WP:NPOV. To include one person and exclude others is an assertion that the included person is more notable than the people who are excluded. Guettarda 05:14, 25 July 2006 (UTC)
  • I accept this for the time being until my advocate returns from break. I need to seek further assistance and to be guided appropriately on the matter and the way it is being resolved. I still hold the view point that lists need to expand and when a list or article is written it is not written in completion. For the time being I rest my case and I let your rule stand. Ryorye 05:21, 25 July 2006 (UTC)
  • How do we measure notability?Ryorye 18:14, 25 July 2006 (UTC)
  • It is difficult to compare "notability" when dealing with different categories (eg. musician etc...).
  • I can start a list without including others of "equal" notability, once I do not agree to exculde the others.

Ryorye 01:33, 26 July 2006 (UTC)

There's a fundamental difference between "starting a list" and "inserting a list into an article". Fundamentally though, anything added has to be going somewhere. Guettarda 21:19, 26 July 2006 (UTC)

[edit] References

  1. ^ "Basdeo Panday, Wikipedia"
  2. ^ "KMC (Ken Marlon Charles) Interview" April 2006, Retrieved July 2006.

[edit] Removed opening date

Removed "Club Geneve officialy opened on July 22nd 2006." from the article. The official opening date of a club is not encyclopedic information. Please do not reinsert without discussion and consensus to avoid blocks for 3RR or edit warring. Thanks, FloNight talk 00:38, 25 July 2006 (UTC)

Thanks for the post. Its ok. Ryorye 01:01, 25 July 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Thanks

Thanks a lot, Guettarda, the list of people you provided is very helpful. I think that nos. 1-7 are notable, but 8-12 are not, since local councillors are not generally considered to be notable. On your point that Marlon Asher isn't notable enough for inclusion, he's notable enough for his own article on the 'Pedia, and I think that that is sufficient qualification until the list gets overlong. I'll start researching the claims to fame of other people on your list. --David Mestel(Talk) 14:14, 30 July 2006 (UTC)

Sorry - been far too busy this week to do much. Can you explain why Local Government officials aren't notable? In the US elected State government officials are notable. Guettarda 14:22, 30 July 2006 (UTC)
States in the US are considerably larger than boroughs - you could probably fit the entirety of Trinidad and Tobago into one of the larger US states. --David Mestel(Talk) 10:47, 31 July 2006 (UTC)
Nagessar not notable? How do you get that? Guettarda 14:25, 30 July 2006 (UTC)
I'm prepared to concede that current mayors are notable, but I don't think that previous mayors are, unless they've done something special and groundbreaking. --David Mestel(Talk) 13:44, 31 July 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Research

I've done some research on some of the other people you listed:

  1. Ramesh Ramadhan - only claim to fame seems to be as a non-notable referee; 4 Google hits [11].
  2. Patricia Baptiste [12] - local councillor, who are not normally notable.
  3. Winston Siriram [13] - ex local councillor, see above.
  4. Vijay Kalloo [14] - local councillor, see above.
  5. Vinoo Boodram [15] - local councillor, see above.
  6. Dave Seeram [16] - ex local councillor, see above.
  7. Karamchand Gokool [17] - ex local councillor, see above.
  8. Roshard Kasmally [18] - local councillor, see above.
  9. Siew Rambarran [19] - local councillor, see above.
  10. Bhim Ramsingh [20] - ex local councillor, see above.

--David Mestel(Talk) 14:22, 30 July 2006 (UTC)

Please explain why they are "not notable", and why they are significantly less notable then a person with one local hit. Guettarda 14:23, 30 July 2006 (UTC)

Well being a referee with 4 Google hits certainly doesn't make one noteable - heck, I Google more than that, and I don't claim to be notable. WP:BIO tells us that "Major local political figures who receive (or received) significant press coverage" may be notable. Unless you can show that she has recieved significant press coverage, I would say that Baptiste is not notable. --David Mestel(Talk) 14:38, 30 July 2006 (UTC)
  1. Google hits are not a measure of notability.
  2. How are you measuring "significant differences in notability"? I have asked you that repeatedly - please explain your methodology. Guettarda 05:08, 24 November 2006 (UTC)
OK, Google hits are not in themselves a measure of notability, but they do help to show up sources that might show that the subject is notable (and remember, it's up to you to show that they are notable, not up to me to show that they aren't). If you can find a source showing he's notable, I'll be happy to see him included. David Mestel(Talk) 16:06, 24 November 2006 (UTC)
You still have made no attempt to answer my question. I see all these people as not significantly less notable than the one you want to insert. Please explain how your criteria for determining who is significantly more notable. Guettarda 16:40, 24 November 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Marlon Asher

While Guettarda is on Wikibreak, I'm adding Marlon Asher pro tem, per our discussions. --David Mestel(Talk) 07:23, 13 August 2006 (UTC)