Talk:Châtelet – Les Halles (Paris RER)

The following discussion is an archived discussion of the proposal. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made in a new section on the talk page. No further edits should be made to this section.

The result of the proposal was endorse the title Châtelet – Les Halles (Paris RER), per the discussion below. Spaced en-dashes are not deprecated in EN article titles when there is a space within one of the elements to be connected; dashed titles can be handled through redirects; and this setup makes it most clear where the break between names comes, as in Gare de Cergy – Saint-Christophe. There seems to be a rough consensus for the current title. I won't move any other pages myself, but perhaps this discussion can result in the addition of a guideline somewhere for the sakes of clarity and future standardization. Dekimasuよ! 07:22, 5 December 2007 (UTC)

Châtelet - Les Halles (Paris RER) → Châtelet–Les Halles (Paris RER) — The current name, with a spaced hyphen, definitely does not follow Wikipedia guidelines regarding hyphens (WP:HYPHEN). It seems to me that, en anglais, the current usage is an en dash (WP:DASH). However, I am not sure on whether we should go by what it's called en français, and I don't know about French grammar enough to know what is the correct option. The only source on this page is a PDF that shows an unspaced hyphen. —Kelvinc 06:23, 14 November 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Survey

Feel free to state your position on the renaming proposal by beginning a new line in this section with *'''Support''' or *'''Oppose''', then sign your comment with ~~~~. Since polling is not a substitute for discussion, please explain your reasons, taking into account Wikipedia's naming conventions.

• This is dealt with indirectly at WP:WikiProject France/Conventions: "Stations must go under the name 'Gare de XXXXXXXX', or should the name comprise more that one word, it should be joined by hyphens. ex: 'Gare de XXXXXX-YY-ZZZZZZZZ'". Actual usage with RER and Metro stations appears to be split with most stations using the hyphen. Maybe discuss this at Wikipedia talk:WikiProject France/Conventions and establish a general policy before acting. — AjaxSmack 19:33, 14 November 2007 (UTC)
• The plain titles redirect here, so "(Paris RER)" is unneeded. Dekimasuよ! 07:45, 25 November 2007 (UTC)
• Either Châtelet – Les Halles (Paris RER) or Gare de Châtelet – Les Halles, using "space-en-dash-space" in between. See discussion below.--Endroit (talk) 20:10, 28 November 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Discussion

Gare de Marne-la-Vallée - Chessy, December, 2001.

• For clarity, the article name should be either Châtelet – Les Halles (Paris RER) or Gare de Châtelet – Les Halles, using the "space-dash-space" in between. This would make it similar to the existing style used for Houilles – Carrières-sur-Seine (SNCF), Le Vésinet – Centre (Paris RER), Gare de Cergy - Saint-Christophe, Gare de Marne-la-Vallée - Chessy, etc. Also, I believe "(Paris RER)" in parentheses serves to disambiguate it with Châtelet (Paris Métro) and Les Halles (Paris Métro), which in turn derive their names from the monument at Place du Châtelet and the former market of Les Halles. The French article name is at fr:Gare de Châtelet - Les Halles.--Endroit (talk) 17:09, 25 November 2007 (UTC)
  • In response to Endroit, my take is that, in fact, all those mentioned above are not in line with Wikipedia conventions on hyphens and dashes (on en, anyways, but not sure about fr). This is why I'm really confused on things like this: whether English or French grammar should take precedence. And my French is too weak to know whether space-dash-space is grammatically correct in French. Also, now that you mentioned it: this is worse than I thought! We have space-en dash-space and space-hyphen-space, which itself is contradictory already. Kelvinc (talk) 06:38, 28 November 2007 (UTC)
    • French usage per RATP website appears to be to use a hyphen without any spaces: Châtelet-Les Halles, Houilles-Carrières-sur-Seine, Le Vésinet-Centre, Cergy-Saint-Christophe, Marne-la-Vallée-Chessy. (See http://www.ratp.fr/ ). However, "space-hyphen-space" appears to be more prevalent in Wikipedia, to separate multiple place-names within station names...which was fine with me. This particular WP:RM cited WP:HYPHEN, and that is the reason I recommended "space-dash-space" instead. Perhaps we need to discuss this further in WP:FR.--Endroit (talk) 18:46, 28 November 2007 (UTC)
      • To further help matters (or not), I found the image to the right which appears to spell out "Marne-la-Vallée – Chessy". This looks like "space-en-dash-space" to me. I support "space-en-dash-space" for all similar articles.--Endroit (talk) 19:44, 28 November 2007 (UTC)
        • Taking into account the previous comments, WP:FRANCE/CON, the fact that this and almost all RER stations are part of the National network and the official site, I propose that RER names should always be under the format Gare de XXXXX (1), Gare de XXXXX-YYY - ZZZZZZZ (2), Gare de XXXXX - YYYYY (3). The space-dash-space lets us not confuse ourselves between scenarios 2 and 3 and make it easier to type the names since most keyboards don't have a hyphen button. ChrisDHDR 16:19, 1 December 2007 (UTC)
        • NOTE: For the RER A and the Southern half of the RER B stations, lets just stick to the above method for the sake of simplicity. ChrisDHDR 07:30, 2 December 2007 (UTC)

Space-dash-space is a mean to separate towns or places within station names.

The long dash should be kept for presentation, not for article names

Gonioul 23:32, 1 December 2007 (UTC)

I don't know how things are in FR, but in EN I find that em and en dashes are used regularly for article names, with the hypenated versions redirecting (e.g. War in Somalia (2006–present) versus War in Somalia (2006-present)). Consensus seems to be that technical limitations of no dash keys can be easily overcome using redirects and that dashes should be used for grammatical accuracy (though I'm not sure what would be the accurate grammar in French). Kelvinc 04:26, 4 December 2007 (UTC)

The above discussion is preserved as an archive of the proposal. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made in a new section on this talk page. No further edits should be made to this section.