Talk:CETI Patterson Power Cell

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Articles for deletion This article was nominated for deletion on 12/5/2007. The result of the discussion was keep.
  • This article is a stub, is contradictory, is lacking information, external links, and citations, and gives no reason for why this isn't the most important scientific discovery ever. We need an expert badly.—Preceding unsigned comment added by 71.126.176.31 (talk • contribs) 23:45, 27 October 2007
  • This invention was written about in the late 1990s in several publications I added as external links. I will not incorporate these in the article because I do not have much training in this area, but I encourage others to do so. The POV uncritical tone of the existing article needs to be taken back a few notches. This invention was at least widely discussed, and was demonstrated at a legitimate scientific meeting. It is apparently very easy to come up with bogus excess energy findings doing calorimetry, with the key being that the measurements should hold up when carefully replicated by others. Edison (talk) 16:22, 5 December 2007 (UTC)
  • A widely quoted but apparently unpublished attempted replication of the device and experiments is found at Merriman, Barry and Burchard, Paul "An Attempted Replication of the CETI Cold Fusion Experiment " retrieved Dec. 5, 2007. These researchers found no net energy, but did not have the device as produced by the inventor. . Merriman was apparently a mathematics visiting prof at UCLA when the experiment was done. As an unpublished manuscript it does not qualify as a reliable source. Prof George Miley at the University of Illinois apparently did claim to have replicated the excess energy results and demonstrated it at a nuclear conference there in 1995. Edison (talk) 16:36, 5 December 2007 (UTC)

Although I think the failure of replication pretty much puts the nail in the coffin of this device, I maintain that it is not a perpetual motion machine any more than a fission reactor - or any power source! The claim in question seems to be the fact that it puts out more energy than it uses. By this definition, a gasoline-powered internal combustion engine is a perpetual motion machine, because with the small energy input required to ignite the gasoline fumes, a large amount of energy is put out. But of course, the energy was there all along in the bonds between molecules - combustion of gasoline is simply an exothermic process, and when the fuel is consumed, the engine stops. Likewise, Patterson, while avoiding the term "cold fusion," states that the device requires hydrogen or deuterium (or radioactive nuclei) fuel in the form of normal or heavy water solution, which would be consumed in some finite amount of time - so by definition it is not a perpetual motion machine. Neither would it violate the laws of thermodynamics because the energy is there all along, just in a different form. The only legitimate problem with the machine is the physics of breaking the coulomb barrier at low temperature, which is likely why no independent lab has been able to replicate Patterson's results. St3vo (talk) 16:03, 7 December 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Speculation

I disagree with the following statement: "If the cell worked in either of these ways, well constructed, peer reviewed experiments would soon prove their efficacy and revolutionise physics and power generation." That's someone's opinion, or speculation. It's not proven fact. There are innovations, such as the idea that doctors should wash their hands to prevent the spread of infection, that were rejected by the mainstream for decades. The idea that an idea should be rejected because there are no mainstream experiments verifying it can become a self-fulfilling prophecy. People have found it extremely difficult to get funding to carry out certain types of experiments considered "fringe". I shouldn't have to say what I'm not saying, but I will say that I'm not saying that I think this idea works; however, I disagree with the quoted sentence in the article and think it should be changed, perhaps by inserting a prose attribution. --Coppertwig (talk) 17:31, 8 December 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Reliable sources

I recognize that "Atlantis Rising" is not a reliable source, but I threw it in as it seemed to be the origin of the specious "1.4 Watts" and "1000 times the energy" claims. I'm not familiar with policy in this area - is it acceptable insomuch as it reliably reports these unreliable claims? St3vo (talk) 18:16, 10 December 2007 (UTC)