User talk:Cesar Tort/Personal sandbox

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Occam razor's epigraph:

"Never attribute to Devil-worshipping conspiracies what opportunism, emotional instability, and religious bigotry are sufficient to explain." —Shawn Carlson, Ph.D.

Contents

[edit] paste from old version of SRA

Questioning children

The key problem in cases of SRA relying on children's testimony is the methodology by which such testimony is obtained. Children are very suggestible and will generally try to please the adult who interacts with them. On the other hand, social workers and therapists working with children believed that children would not openly talk about the abuse they suffered because of shame, or that they might even have repressed the memories of the abuse and that these memories would have to be recovered. In general, investigators worked under the assumption that the abuse had happened and needed to be discovered through aggressive questioning over a prolonged period of time. Investigators also sometimes relied on "diaries" where children were supposed to relate their experiences, or on the interpretation of drawings and of doll play. All these techniques are now regarded as highly problematic as they rely strongly on the interpretation of the investigator and encourage the child to mix fantasy and reality.

The questions asked were typically yes/no questions: "Did person X touch you there?" Even if the child answered no, the next question might be something like "When he touched you, did you like it?" No matter what the child answered to the second question, it was taken as evidence that the abuse had happened. Negative answers, on the other hand, were interpreted as "denial" (in the Freudian sense of a defense mechanism) and had to be penetrated. As such, the children's testimony was in reality very much based on the adults' world view. This type of questioning is based on the Reid technique.

Some perpetrators of the SRA panic were themselves mentally ill. Diana Napolis, an outspoken online advocate of the idea of the existence of SRA (under the pseudonym "Curio"), and personally involved in several SRA investigations as a social worker, was committed to a mental institution in 2003 after harassing and threatening Steven Spielberg and Jennifer Love Hewitt and claiming that she was controlled through "psychotronic weaponry."

Hypnosis and false memories Beyond the Satanic ritual abuse scares which were directly based on questioning children, a large number of adults came forward in the 1980s and 1990s and claimed to have recovered memories of severe, often Satanic ritual abuse in their childhood. Later investigators diagnosed many of these adults as mentally ill. While criminal charges were rarely pressed because of the long time that had passed since the alleged abuse, media coverage of these adult testimonies nevertheless contributed to the belief that Satanic abuse was, in fact, a widespread phenomenon.

Many of the women who reported such memories had previously seen therapists specializing in child sexual abuse, or read books like The Courage to Heal by Ellen Bass and Laura Davis, which encouraged them to recover their allegedly existing memories of severe abuse in their childhood. At the time, some child abuse therapists used a technique known as recovered memory therapy (RMT), which worked from the presumption that the patients were so severely abused that their memories of it were repressed in childhood and could only be recovered by a specialist. This approach has involved hypnosis and drugs to stimulate the recovery of memories of abuse.

Critics of recovered memory therapy, like Richard Ofshe and Ethan Watters (Making Monsters. False Memories, Psychotherapy, And Sexual Hysteria), view this practice as fraudulent and dangerous. They base this assertion on several claims:

Traumatic experiences which obviously have happened, such as war time experiences, are not "repressed"—they are either forgotten or remembered clearly in spite of attempts to suppress them. The "memories" recovered in RMT are highly detailed. According to RMT literature, the human brain stores very vivid memories which can be recalled in detail, like a video tape. This belief contradicts virtually all research on the way memories work. The patient is given very extensive lists of "symptoms" including sleeplessness, headaches, the feeling of being different from others etc. If several of these symptoms are found, the therapist suggests to the patient that they were probably sexually abused. If the patient denies this, they are "in denial" and require more extensive therapy. During the questioning, patients are openly encouraged to ignore their own feelings and memories and to assume that the abuse has happened. They then explore together with this therapist, over a prolonged period of many months or even years, how the abuse happened. The possibility that the abuse has not happened at all is usually not considered. According to these critics, RMT techniques used for "reincarnation therapy" or "alien abduction therapy" are comparable to the techniques used in Satanic ritual abuse therapy. To verify the false memory hypothesis, researchers like Elizabeth Loftus have successfully produced false memories of various childhood incidents in test subjects. This is viewed as further evidence that comprehensive false memories can be produced in therapy.

RMT critics also point to the bizarre nature of Satanic ritual abuse stories and claim that, in many cases, such stories are probably untrue. They believe that all or most SRA memories are produced by the therapists through extensive suggestive questioning. Some of them also believe that multiple personality disorder is primarily or exclusively a product of that therapy or self-suggestion. RMT practitioners generally deny such claims, or hold that they are only true in a minority of cases, and believe that their work is sound when practiced properly. However, critics respond that the failure of mental health professionals to distinguish false memories from real ones abnegates this entire line of therapy

[edit] question

First of all, WLU, please tell me if you want me to type whole paragraphs of Frankfurter's book. I don't think it's wise to quote him briefly here since his book is very closely argued.

Oh lord no. Princeton University Press is a publisher of RSes, add to the page and I'm unlikely to challenge you. If others are, then you might have to do so. WLU (talk) 15:10, 22 February 2008 (UTC)

I've already selected a few pages that I may type about the problems with SRA therapy. Or is there another subject that in your mind has priority, the worldwide conspiracy perhaps?

As I believe I've said before, I'm of the opinion that there is a range of credibility and beliefs about SRA. There is definitely abuse that uses satanic symobols and whatnot, probably a miniscule number of mentally ill people who think raping and killing children pleases some dark master, probably a larger body of people who use the trappings of satanism to scare their victims (unpious frauds perhaps?) and a lot of belief, but no proof (IMO no reality) of a world-wide satanic-panic type conspiracy that slaughters children and summons the devil to the tune of thousands of bodies per year. But all are notable and all are parts of the overall thing which is SRA, and all should be (briefly) discussed. The list of allegations would nicely append to the first, possibly second types.

The User:Cesar Tort/"Satanic ritual abuse" article page I'd rather use for our proposed drafts to be moved into main-space, which is why I moved the content you had pasted here.

As you like, the advantage of subpages is you can do pretty much whatever you like. When drafting pages, I tend to intersperse commentary and discussion with the actual text - it can get confusing, but as a subpage, who cares? There's no real rules besides don't POV-fork or link to mainspace and since we're intending to paste this onto the SRA proper, neither apply. WLU (talk) 15:10, 22 February 2008 (UTC)

This talk page is only to "talk" :)

But...you've put text in. This violates your logic. But...but...*pop*
That was my brain exploding. WLU (talk) 15:10, 22 February 2008 (UTC)

Cesar Tort 20:29, 21 February 2008 (UTC)

[edit] Skeptical books, articles and TV programs:

1. Robert Hicks, In Pursuit of Satan, Prometheus Books, Buffalo, 1991 (studies misguided police investigations; exposes what he calls cult cops - police officers with religious agendas)

I can get it from the library. WLU (talk) 15:15, 22 February 2008 (UTC)

2. James Richardson et al, The Satanism Scare, Aldine de Gruyter, New York, 1991 (18 chapters written by various social service specialists)

Got an ISBN? WLU (talk) 15:15, 22 February 2008 (UTC)

3. Jeffrey Victor, Satanic Panic, Open Court, Chicago, 1993 (examination of the satanic cult hysteria; how rumors become publicly accepted fact; documents dozens of Satanic panics)

Library available. WLU (talk) 15:15, 22 February 2008 (UTC)

4. E. Goldstein & Kevin Farmer, Confabulations, Upton Books, Boca Raton FL, (1995). It describes destruction of families as a result of therapists creating false memories of childhood sexual abuse.

5. Lawrence Wright, Remembering Satan, Knopf, New York, 1994 (Story of one family's disintegration due to false recovered memories)

6. M. Hertenstein & J. Trott, Selling Satan, Cornerstone Press, Chicago, 1993 (Expose of the fraudulent claims of Mike Warnke, the seminar leader most responsible for spreading the Satanic Panic throughout North America)

7. Mark Pendergrast, Victims of Memory, Second Edition, Upper Access, Hinesburg VT, (1996). Order at: 1-800-356-9315. (Discusses the unreliability of recovered memories and deals with some ritual abuse cases)

Library available. WLU (talk) 15:15, 22 February 2008 (UTC)

8. John Earl, article in Issues in Child Abuse Accusations, issue published 1995-AUG, Institute for Psychological Therapies, 13200 Cannon City Blvd., Northfield, MN 55057, $15 USF; $20 USF (foreign)

I can get it, but only a print version I believe. WLU (talk) 15:15, 22 February 2008 (UTC)

9. Colin A. Ross, Satanic Ritual Abuse: Principles of Treatment, University of Toronto Press; Toronto, Buffalo, London (1995) ISBN 0-8020-7357-3. It asserts that perhaps only 10% of the recovered memories of Multiple Personality Disorder (Dissociative Identity Disorder) have any basis in reality, and that the latter are distorted recollections of Christian rituals, KKK activities, or rituals by isolated Satanic groups.

Library available. WLU (talk) 15:15, 22 February 2008 (UTC)
  • Comment: This summary, which I read here differs from Biao's summary of the same book, as he discussed it in both an archived SRA talk page and in his user page. —Cesar Tort 21:46, 21 February 2008 (UTC)

10. Television program "The Search for Satan" was broadcast by PBS's Frontline program on 1995-OCT-24. It dealt with the extensive use of drugs, physical restraints and suggestive therapy techniques to convince patients that they were involved in multi-generational Satanic groups. Video copies at US$ 78.45 and transcripts at US$12.00 are available from Journal Graphics, 1-800-825-5746, Extension 322 (Rebecca Larson).

11. A.U. Bottoms et al, "An Analysis of Ritualistic and Religion-Related Child-Abuse Allegations", Law and Human Behavior. V. 20, # 1, 1996-Feb., pp. 1-34. Authors conducted a stratified random sample survey of clinical members of the American Psychological Association. They found that only a minority of those who responded had encountered ritual abuse in their clients. Evidence (particularly in cases of child ritual abuse reported by adults) is questionable.

12. J.M Feldman: "Stranger Than Fiction: When Our Minds Betray Us," American Psychiatric Press, Washington DC, (1998). —Preceding unsigned comment added by Cesar Tort (talkcontribs) 21:41, 21 February 2008 (UTC)

Note that I can get some, but I don't necessarily want to read the entire books. I've got a lot of stuff on paleontology I want to get through first. WLU (talk) 15:15, 22 February 2008 (UTC)

[edit] Frankfurter on therapy and SRA

The SRA survivor would also affirm and clarify notions of evil for a fourth type of audience anxious for their demonstration: the psychotherapist who encountered such patients in private sessions. If the actual performance was restricted to only two individuals in the therapy session, the results for each were important for the cultural and professional legitimation of SRA as a social problem. The therapist would discover pure evil through the eyes of her patient, while the alleged survivor would find encouragement and shaping of her role as performer of evil through the therapist's credulous interventions.

Indeed, here especially we must be alert to the interactive nature of the mimetic performance of evil realms. Particularly in the case of psychotherapy, few patients maintain the role of SRA survivor without the context of a sympathetic, even forceful, "SRA therapist," whose assumptions, techniques, and professional indiscretions give shape to the performance of SRA victimhood.[footnote] In chapter 3 I examined the SRA therapist in her own role as an expert in evil, but here I consider her as an audience transformed through the SRA performance, as she beholds evil through her patient's eyes and affective states in a process that clinical psychologists call "countertransference" — that is, the often intense personal reactions that therapist experience toward the patients and their stories. So if the notion of "audience" is here delimited, the performer's effect — on the therapist and indeed on an entire professional world of evil-discernment — could be considerable, as unprepared therapists came to "realize" Satanic evil and then adjust their practices to heal its victims.

Therapists who have written about their experiences with patients who break down, dissociate, and tell horrific stories of Satanic cults describe their own feeling of terror, anxiety for their own safety, even a heightened fear of threats. [Evil Incarnate, pp. 192-193]

I could continue to type a couple of pages about Frankfurter on therapy and SRA, but I don't know if it's ok because of copyright, etc.

As I said, most of his work is closely argued. At least we can summarize his views in an attempt to write something properly sourced (in sharp contrast to the quotation above).

In a nutshell, I interpret Frankfurter's point that the dynamics between credulous therapists and SRA patients is a case of folie a deux.

Cesar Tort 03:08, 23 February 2008 (UTC)

[edit] How many more?

User:Abuse truth is threating to revert even after you wrote "Jesus Christ" in edit summary yesterday. I wonder how more points should AT accumulate to be banned from Wikiland? WP:BAN#Community_ban:

"There have been situations where a user has exhausted the community's patience to the point where he or she finds themselves blocked..."

Cesar Tort 05:58, 23 February 2008 (UTC)

Whoops! When I wrote the above I was unaware that this has been discussed at length in the incidents board (where I just posted something) and that AT has been, in fact, blocked! —Cesar Tort 06:41, 23 February 2008 (UTC)