Talk:Cesc Fàbregas

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	Cesc Fàbregas has been listed as one of the Everyday life good articles under the good article criteria. If you can improve it further, please do. If it no longer meets these criteria, you can delist it, or ask for a reassessment.
May 29, 2007 Good article nominee Listed

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Contents 1 Spelling 2 Requested move 2.1 Survey 2.2 Discussion 3 Cesc Fàbregas 3.1 Survey 4 Spelling 5 Citation 5.1 Barça season ticket 6 Hype 7 Barcelona Career 8 Rewrite and push for GA 9 Birthplace 10 GA review 11 A word about the links in the references section 12 Youth teams 13 Image 14 Fabregas's height 15 Cesc Controversy 16 Alleged Controversy 17 Soler 18 Cesc Fàbregas height? 19 Official Fabregas Website 20 CE Mataro

[edit] Spelling

The most common English spelling is Fabregas. The English alphabet has no accents, despite their occasional use on imported words. There is nothing wrong with transliterating/translating names, we do it with Greek, Russian, Arabic people etc. (e.g. Tour Eiffel is at Eiffel Tower). Wiki policy is to use the most common name for the title, not the most correct. Most of the British media uses "Fabregas" [3]. ed g2s • talk 13:32, 28 April 2006 (UTC)

I agree. What's with the notion that it is perfectly acceptable for Catalan and Spanish to have their own spellings, but English is somehow a second-class language which doesn't get the same respect? Gene Nygaard 02:23, 15 January 2007 (UTC)

English only "transliterates" names written in a non-Roman alphabet. Accents on foreign names are a different matter. A lot of people choose not to use them because they don't know them (or can't find them on the keyboard). They used to cause problems to typesetters (but with modern technology this is no longer an issue). Some people are sticklers for them. Instead of being dogmatic about it why not check out a few newspaper style guides to get an idea of the different approaches taken by different organisations? Most British newspapers use "Ségolène" not "Segolene".

Oh yes: without wanting to be precious about it, the authentic Catalan spelling of Cesc's surname would be Fàbregues. It's already been Castilianised once... Rabascius (talk) 19:26, 5 March 2008 (UTC)

[edit] Citation

[edit] Barça season ticket

It was mentioned by Martin Tyler on May 17 on some tv show I'd rather forget. Is it possible to cite a match commentary comment?
Slumgum | yap | stalk | 20:57, 21 May 2006 (UTC)

However, this suggests that he was but now isn't a paid-up Nou Camper that it and this says that his family are season ticket holders, but doesn't mention that he is, which it probably would if it were true. I think it's enough to say that he and his family are keen Barça supporters.
 SLUMGUM  yap  stalk  22:08, 5 June 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Hype

Fàbregas is one of the best of Spain's next generation of footballers. He is a creative central midfielder that starts some of Arsenals great moves with his unbelievable range of passing and one of the premierships brightest up and coming talents that any club would love to have in there team. All these comments are subjective and unsourced so I have removed them. QuiteUnusual 18:46, 18 December 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Barcelona Career

"Fàbregas started his career at FC Barcelona B" and his stats both Barca B and C are listed. Well he has not played for Barcelona B, and I am 90% sure he hasn't played for the C team either. For the 2002/03 season he started in Cadete A. Small but I thought worth pointing out :) Fran

If you're sure what you're saying feel free to correct the relevant parts. I have not found much information on his Barca career. Chensiyuan 12:54, 22 May 2007 (UTC)

     In Europe, the letters refer to an age group. In case you are unaware. He probably has played for "B" which are players under 16. Renny11

[edit] Rewrite and push for GA

Okay I'd be doing (and have done) some serious reworking on this article so all suggestions and additions will be welcome. While I like the player there's really too much one-sidedness in the article, to begin with. The lead also needs to be expanded, but subject to major reorganisation of the body first. More information on his early life and family life will also be relevant and helpful Chensiyuan 15:58, 21 May 2007 (UTC)

I've reorganised and added/trimmed content in the "Club career" section. Chensiyuan 12:51, 22 May 2007 (UTC)

I've further touched up the whole article. Now what's really missing is criticisms of his play. He was pretty woeful in front of goal in the 2006-07 season for e.g. There's also probably issues about him being lightweight. And certainly, any information on his early life would be worth including. Chensiyuan 15:23, 22 May 2007 (UTC)

I've added some stuff regarding the criticisms; now we could really do with information on his early life/family life/personal life etc. As well as more images. Chensiyuan 16:14, 22 May 2007 (UTC)

I have searched high and low for credible sources that talk about his life outside football, but it's been quite fruitless. However I don't think that should preclude this article from being nominated for GA, so I've gone ahead and nominated it. Chensiyuan 13:57, 24 May 2007 (UTC)

The intro has a bit too much info, I think. Some of the detail could be stripped out and moved into the main part of the article. As I see it, the intro should be an abstract, telling you only the important general details. MSJapan 17:45, 23 May 2007 (UTC)

I try to model it with some of the GAs and FAs on sports personalities. Also, the basic guideline for the lead is a summary of all pertinent information in the article. Which aspect of the lead do you have in mind, which you find removable? Chensiyuan 18:47, 23 May 2007 (UTC)

Well, since it says he plays for Arsenal "Fàbregas started his career as a trainee with FC Barcelona but before he even played a game for the first team he was signed by Arsenal in mid-2003. He did not feature much in his first season for the Gunners, but following injuries to key midfielders in the 2004-05 season, he became utilised more often and slowly established himself as Arsenal's starting central midfielder. Having made the first team at a young age, Fàbregas went on to break several of the club's records as he began to earn a reputation of a technically gifted player and excellent passer of the ball." is mostly redundant - how he got there or what he did or didn't do is material for the main article.

Similarly. "On the international scene, he saw success with the under-17 national team as they came in second in the 2003 FIFA U-17 World Championship and Fàbregas was named top scorer and player of the tournament. He was called up to play for the senior team in the 2006 World Cup and is now a regular with the national side. As one of the top young talents in the game, Fàbregas' impressive performances for club and country attracted much attention from other clubs, but he signed a new contract in 2006, keeping him with Arsenal until 2014." could do without the awards and the "top yound talens in the game" bit. I think a single intro paragraph would be perfectly adequate as a summation. MSJapan 20:37, 23 May 2007 (UTC)

i would relook it soon, in the meantime feel free to edit the lead as you see fit. Chensiyuan 22:02, 23 May 2007 (UTC)

actually i believe Dudesleeper has cleaned up the lead and other parts of the article as well (thanks). what do you think of the lead now? Chensiyuan 08:34, 24 May 2007 (UTC)

based on my previous experience with GAs and FAs, i'm going to expand a little on his national team career in the lead Chensiyuan 13:53, 24 May 2007 (UTC)

Much better. MSJapan 20:21, 24 May 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Birthplace

i don't know if there is a discrepancy, but different sources have cited seemingly different places as his birthplace. the two principal sides at odds on this issue are arsenal.com/soccernet.com on one side, and his "unofficial" fansites on the other. any explanation would be helpful. Chensiyuan 08:58, 24 May 2007 (UTC)

it seems that Zigurat, who hails from the Catalan Countries, says that Vilessoc does not exist. he should know what he's saying, so i'd just leave it at that, despite what soccernet and arsenal.com says. Chensiyuan 06:29, 30 May 2007 (UTC)

I'm sure he knows his stuff, but, likewise, I'm sure it's not Wikipedia policy to take someone's word for something when it's referenced in more than one place as something else. - Dudesleeper · Talk 15:02, 30 May 2007 (UTC)

I won't disagree regarding WP policy. My fear is that even the official sites merely resuse a communal pool of information, a systemic error as it were. This may be corroborated by the fact that when I perform net searches on "Vilessoc de Mar", almost all the hits in the first few pages point to Fabregas pages, rather than a page relating to the place itself. Chensiyuan 15:12, 30 May 2007 (UTC)

[edit] GA review

Very nice, just a few problems that I would like you to address:

• The lead is too small, two good paragraphs should really be considered for an article this size
  • First, thank you for reviewing the article. As you may notice from a discussion in the preceding paragraphs of this talkpage, there were concerns raised by two editors (not including me) that the lead (mostly expanded by me) was too long. The current version is probably 65-70% of the original, but I thought it was still a reasonable summary of the article. It would be helpful if you can point out some instances of material that can be included in the lead, so I can get a sense of what you're looking for. Chensiyuan 10:36, 25 May 2007 (UTC)
  • Okay I've expanded the lead a little, talking about his role as playmaker of the team, and his international career, and his long-term committment to Arsenal. Chensiyuan 10:49, 25 May 2007 (UTC)
    • Y That's more like it! --Phill ^{talk Edits} _{Review this GA review!} 13:06, 25 May 2007 (UTC)
• An honours section would be good as well, see Dean Ashton and Steven Gerrard as good examples
  • Expanding on the honours section, for reoccuring honours you could include succession boxes at the footer of the article

Y Done - I've done the section, but I don't think any succession boxes apply here do they? Chensiyuan 12:51, 25 May 2007 (UTC)

• majority of the article refers to Fabregas by his second name and "him" or "he" - The article should really try and refer to him by other means, such as "The Spaniard", "The Spanish midfielder", "The Midfielder" to name a few

Y Done I have now varied the word choice throughout the article. Chensiyuan 10:53, 25 May 2007 (UTC)

• No persondata in the article, see Template:Persondata for details

Y Done Severo^TC 10:30, 25 May 2007 (UTC)

• Several instances of POV within the article:
  • "...he is today regarded as one of Spain's best next-generation midfielders" - by whom is he regarded?
    • Rephrased. Chensiyuan 21:04, 25 May 2007 (UTC)
  • "...was particularly outstanding in the Champions League against Real Madrid and Juventus" - once again, by whom?
    • Rephrased. Chensiyuan 21:04, 25 May 2007 (UTC)
    • I thought there were already references for this? Or do you think they do not suffice/not appropriate -- or it an issue of phraseology? Or do you mean attribution in the text? Chensiyuan 11:18, 25 May 2007 (UTC)
      • Personally, I don't like having such wording in a biography because it may lead to critism of Wikipedia - one way that 4u1e and myself found around this problem - So, instead of saying "was particularly outstanding in the Champions League against Real Madrid and Juventus", you could say "produced a performances against Juventus and Real Madrid that were described by Bloomberg's Sam Sheringham and The Times' Hugh McIlvanney as "outstanding". That way, any critism would be "diverted" from Wikipedia to those two gentlemen. --Phill ^{talk Edits} 12:20, 25 May 2007 (UTC)
        • Okay I see what you mean I'd see what I can do. Chensiyuan 12:27, 25 May 2007 (UTC)
  • "He was later nominated for the Gillette Young Player of the World Cup, but he did not win" - who won the award then?

Y Done Lukas Podolski. Chensiyuan 11:14, 25 May 2007 (UTC)

• Nothing to do with the article but why on the Spain World Cup 2006 Template refer to Fabregas as "Cesc"?
  • That is the name he uses when playing for Spain. For Arsenal he uses Fabregas. In an interview he stated that Fabregas is the name of his father; he prefers to be called Cesc. But since everyone in England calls him Fabregas his Arsenal jersey bears the name Fabregas. Chensiyuan 10:38, 25 May 2007 (UTC)
    • I see. Thanks for explaining! Perhaps this should be included in the article? --Phill ^{talk Edits} _{Review this GA review!} 13:06, 25 May 2007 (UTC)
      • It was once in the article but I think I removed it because it was poorly worded. It's probably worth inserting again once I can figure where and how. Meanwhile, i'm now logging off for half a day so i'd take this process up again later in the day --in case anyone thinks i've ran away heh. Chensiyuan 13:13, 25 May 2007 (UTC)
        • Hmm I really can't figure a way to slot in it. Ideas? Chensiyuan 17:43, 25 May 2007 (UTC)
        • Actually, I can no longer find the article where I read this! Chensiyuan 21:03, 25 May 2007 (UTC)

For now, I'll be putting this article on hold until the issues have been addressed. --Phill ^{talk Edits} 10:04, 25 May 2007 (UTC)

Thanks for seeing to my concerns, I will now pass this article. Well done. Just remember to rate the review for future reference (see sig) thanks. --Phill ^{talk Edits} _{Review this GA review!} 12:11, 29 May 2007 (UTC)

[edit] A word about the links in the references section

For reasons unknown to me, some of the soccernet links appear dead when you first click on them. Hitting the back button and re-clicking it (or sometimes, the refresh button) usually does the trick. Just in case someone thinks the links are dead. Chensiyuan 12:58, 25 May 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Youth teams

As I understand it, Cesc never played for FC Barcelona C or FC Barcelona B - I am nearly 100% sure about the latter because he doesn't appear on any of the Barca B rosters (if he had, it would have been an exceptional piece of news, considering that he was only 16, like Bojan Krkic today). Even appearing for Barcelona C would have been a major accomplishment, considering that the youngest players in this season's Barcelona C squad are 19/20[4] (i.e. the same age as Cesc now). To the best of my knowledge, he only made it as far as cadete A ([5]) before being signed by Arsenal - which would seem correct based on his age (that is the level for 15/16 year old youngsters at Barcelona).

[edit] Image

I think the image needs to be changed, the quality is very low and hard to see. User: Renny11

By all means, as long as the new image has no copyright issues. If not, this image remains because it is reasonably usesable. Chensiyuan 06:27, 15 June 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Fabregas's height

I think his height should be revised. We all know that he is not 5'11". This would make him taller than Wayne Rooney who's only 5'10". For people who constantly watch football, it is clear to all of us that Rooney is a lot taller than Fabregas. Cesc is aroung 5'7" or 5'8". So please, whoever wrote that he's 5'11 should change this.Shady19 22:51, 1 November 2007 (UTC)Shady19

Source it, not claim it. Right now, the article uses the soccernet source which states he is 5'9". WP is about verifiability, not truth or personal estimates. Chensiyuan 23:31, 1 November 2007 (UTC)

Well...if you're saying that the article is using ESPN'S soccernet net source for his height, why does it say 5'11" on the article? Apparently it was not rectified. Fabregas is in fact 5'9". So why can't it be changed in the article? We want relevant articles here in Wikipedia. Not some ridiculous and wrong information.Shady19 05:30, 4 November 2007 (UTC)

Where does it say 11? Read. Chensiyuan 06:58, 4 November 2007 (UTC)

I'm tired of people switching Fabregas's height back to 5'11". He is not 5'11". The person who's doing that must not be a soccer fan because a real soccer fan knows that Fabregas is a little man. For God's sake, this should be rectified. —Preceding unsigned comment added by Shady19 (talk • contribs) 01:37, 13 December 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Cesc Controversy

Proposal for the inclusion of a new section, following the match between Arsenal and Manchester United on 3 Nov 2007, many hundreds of football discussion boards have been filled with unfounded allegations of this particular incident. Whilst I agree that allowing a section like this may cause problems in the future. It is surely within Wikipedia's remit to inform rather than remain silent on such topics. (New User currently unregistered) 6/11/07

Thanks for posting your thoughts. To me, it really depends on the magnitude (and thus notability) of the controversy. If we've got a number of reliable sources that reported this controversy, then we have something worth looking. The next step will be to determine if it's worth including in the article, because we are dealing with an encyclopedia after all. Chensiyuan 14:13, 6 November 2007 (UTC)

There will also be issues of structure: where do we put in controversies such as this? Do we need to create a new section just for controversial incidents? More importantly, such a section should not be created for the sake of providing a balanced point of view. At the end of the day, it must be a noteworthy and relevant inclusion in what is essentially a biography of what the person was about. Chensiyuan 14:50, 6 November 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Alleged Controversy

In October 2006, a low quality video available on youtube became widely circulated, which appeared to show that Fabregas had spat in the face of Michael Ballack in the Champions League match between Arsenal and Bayern Munich on the 9 March 2005.[6] Despite press reports in the days following the alleged incident confirming that he was simply shouting at Ballack and there was no suggestion of him having deliberately spat, the allegation continues to persist.

"The Germans were winding the clock, Ballack cleverly going to ground under a challenge from Fabregas, who was cautioned for shouting an insult at the prostrate midfielder. Arsenal, though, were the real fallen giants last night." -- Henry Winter, The Telegraph^[1]

[edit] Soler

What's the story?Radio Guy (talk) 01:18, 1 January 2008 (UTC)

Clarify. Chensiyuan (talk) 23:28, 1 January 2008 (UTC)

[edit] Cesc Fàbregas height?

What is it? There is a controversy here. Somebody just updated to 1.80m quoting TimesOnline

Other links show it as:

• 1.75m (5'9") soccerbase
• 1.75m (5'9") ESPN soccernet

and some interwikis show:

• Spanish: 1.80m
• Catalan: 1.75m
• French: 1.80m
• Italian: 1.75

In short, it's a mess. Can anyone obtain a confirmation of the proper height? -- Alexf⁴² 22:26, 8 February 2008 (UTC)

Please join the discussion at FOOTY Talk if you have some information. -- Alexf⁴² 21:11, 10 February 2008 (UTC)

[edit] Official Fabregas Website

Does anybody know of a Fabregas Exclusive Official website? —Preceding unsigned comment added by 59.180.34.32 (talk) 14:38, 15 April 2008 (UTC)

[edit] CE Mataro

During the Cesc Fabregas Show, aired 19 May 2008, it was revealed he played at a youth level with CE Mataro. I had already put it there, but someone deleted it. --Joecashfire (talk) 00:07, 21 May 2008 (UTC)