User talk:Certh
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[edit] Romanization
Please read WP:RUS before changing romanization. Thanks.—Ëzhiki (Igels Hérissonovich Ïzhakoff-Amursky) • (yo?); 20:52, 21 February 2008 (UTC)
[edit] Charlemagne
There was no such concept as Byzantine Empire in 800 either. But note that the version I want does not say (though it does link) "Western Roman Empire", but rather "Roman Empire in the West", which is accurate. Charles' coronation was a revival of the concept of the imperium Romanum in the West(ern Europe). The Roman Empire had been ruled by two emperors in the past, so crowning a second emperor is not ipso facto secession. Besides, the pope tried to justify it. It may be a 1200-year-old POV, but it's still a POV that it was a "secession". On the other hand, "attempted revival of" is accurate. If don't want the link to W. R. E., remove it and just link Roman Empire; I won't mind. But to refer to Charles' coronation in 800 as a secession from the Byzantine Empire is misleading to most readers. Besides, you haven't specified what, if not the Franks, was seceding. The pope? He can't secede because "the papacy" isn't a part of a state, like Byzantium. The duchy of Rome? Sure, maybe, but that's not nearly as relevant to Charles' coronation as the revival of a Christian idea of "emperor" in Western Europe. And, of course, Rome was de facto outside Byzantine control and had been for a long time. Srnec (talk) 02:09, 8 March 2008 (UTC)
- First you're not right that Rome was ouside Byzantine control at the time. In fact the papacy tried to secess even earlier - at 727 when Gregorius II condemned iconoclastic edicts of imperator Leo III. But then imperial general Eutichius suppressed the upspring and recaptured Rome. After Irene denounced iconoclasts there was no trench between Rome and Constantinople until the proclamation of Carolus emperor in 800. Second. You're right that Byzantine empire is also a concept invented in much later time, so we indeed better to use the term Roman empire. But if such, then no "revival" of Roman empire could be, because from point of view of contemporaries Roman empire never ceased to exist. How one can attempt to "revive" what is not dead? In fact it was rather an anti-imperial move, a move against Constantinople's dominance.--Certh (talk) 02:41, 8 March 2008 (UTC)
- Rome was de facto outside Byzantine control. It was ruled by the Popes on a day-to-day basis and Byzantine attempts at influence in the ducatus Romanus were sporadic at best. My chief problem with your edit (besides the word "Byzantine") is the word "secede": it may be technically true in a legal sense that the ducatus Romanus was "seceding" from Byzantium, but it is misleading to state it outright, since most readers will not know the finer points, they will assume that some entity (and your edit does not make clear what) was leaving the Byzantine Empire when in fact the entity was a small one which Charlemagne had never before ruled and which was not under Byzantine control at the time anyway. The word "revival" is meant to connect "Roman Empire" to "in the West". The Empire did not cease to exist, of course, but it ceased to be recognised in the West: the Franks didn't recognise it (as the political authority), nor the Goths, nor the Lombards. The move was only anti-imperial from the Constantinopolitan point of view, but from Charles' and Leo's it was the only imperial possibility, since God was (clearly) smiling on Charles and Constantinople was out of His favour. But we could debate this—as historians still do and I did once before, see Talk:Charlemagne/Archive 1#Roman Emperor, East and West—until we're blue in our faces, so I just suggest we find a compromise wording superior to both versions. How about this:
- During his reign, he conquered Italy and was crowned Imperator Augustus by Pope Leo III on 25 December 800 as a rival to the Byzantine Emperor in Constantinople and the first Roman Emperor in the West since 476.
- It has the advantages of including mention/links of Byz. Empire, Const., and W. Roman Empire. It also changes "secede" to "as a rival", which gets the point across but I don't misleads the reader as much. Finally, it also explains what "revival" really meant. What do you think? Srnec (talk)
- Franks and Lombards were outside of the Empire and the Gothic kingdom had dispeared centuries before 800 (it was defeated during the rule of Justinian I). Imperial authority was recognized in Rome (where the Pope was located). We have no reason to say that the empire had no control over Rome. Also I object your wording because of the following:
- It was not 476, but 480 when the empire was reunified after the death of Julius Nepos.
- But even if we change it to 480 it would be incorrect. You state that Carolus was the first Roman Emperor in the West since the end of 5th century. In fact, Phocas, Maurice, Constans II all visited Rome and made orders there. So they were Roman emperors in the West. There was no such title as "Eastern Roman Emperor" - all of them were simply styled "Roman emperor".--Certh (talk) 07:24, 8 March 2008 (UTC)
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- All my responses will be henceforth at Talk:Charlemagne. Srnec (talk) 20:50, 9 March 2008 (UTC)
- Franks and Lombards were outside of the Empire and the Gothic kingdom had dispeared centuries before 800 (it was defeated during the rule of Justinian I). Imperial authority was recognized in Rome (where the Pope was located). We have no reason to say that the empire had no control over Rome. Also I object your wording because of the following:
- Rome was de facto outside Byzantine control. It was ruled by the Popes on a day-to-day basis and Byzantine attempts at influence in the ducatus Romanus were sporadic at best. My chief problem with your edit (besides the word "Byzantine") is the word "secede": it may be technically true in a legal sense that the ducatus Romanus was "seceding" from Byzantium, but it is misleading to state it outright, since most readers will not know the finer points, they will assume that some entity (and your edit does not make clear what) was leaving the Byzantine Empire when in fact the entity was a small one which Charlemagne had never before ruled and which was not under Byzantine control at the time anyway. The word "revival" is meant to connect "Roman Empire" to "in the West". The Empire did not cease to exist, of course, but it ceased to be recognised in the West: the Franks didn't recognise it (as the political authority), nor the Goths, nor the Lombards. The move was only anti-imperial from the Constantinopolitan point of view, but from Charles' and Leo's it was the only imperial possibility, since God was (clearly) smiling on Charles and Constantinople was out of His favour. But we could debate this—as historians still do and I did once before, see Talk:Charlemagne/Archive 1#Roman Emperor, East and West—until we're blue in our faces, so I just suggest we find a compromise wording superior to both versions. How about this:
