Talk:Ceroc

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[edit] Bias?

This article should be less biased. It contains phrases like "the fantastic thing about Ceroc...". It reads like an advert from the company.

Agreed. Product of commerce or fandom, no doubt. I removed this:
There is still an obvious opposition to non-qualified people trying to circulate dance moves where their complexity could be dangerous (if not professionally taught). One of the fantastic things about Ceroc Enterprises as an organisation is the uniformity of the safety standards set solidly in the minds of its instructors, and moves that have not been risk-assessed and properly documented and taught in a safe manner simply are not acceptable.
I'm unclear what this means. I've seen classes taught by Ceroc franchises described as unsafe, so this is not NPOV. I'm thinking it's trying to make some point about Ceroc Ltd being good and holy and its competitors being dangerous cowboys, but it's not entirely clear what's being said. So, removing. I also removed this:
There is also a large unofficial following at the California Institute of Technology in Pasadena, California.
If it's unofficial, it can't be Ceroc, due to the nature of trademarks and such. It'd have to be Modern Jive. Finally, I trimmed the list of franchises. Ceroc.com should remain, as the homepage of Ceroc Enterprises. I've also kept the C&MJ link, because I believe that is technically a seperate company, rather than merely a franchise. The rest I've removed. Here they are:
Finally, I re-added this titbit of info:
Ceroc took steps to avoid the circulation of secondary material (such as dancer produced lists of moves or move sequence).
Rumour has it that these steps included the use of NDA-type warning on the membership agreement. Can't be 100% sure that's true.

[edit] Contributions to Ceroc

Will the person who keeps vandalising this article please desist.

The relation between "Ceroc" and "Modern Jive" is clearly explained in the 5th paragraph, and is an accepted fact.

If proof can be provided that the term "Modern Jive" was used before "Ceroc", then the is a case to change the entry. However, no-one has claimed this to be the case, let alone been able to prove it. Therefore edit's that claim that Ceroc is not a dance form are political opinion and not helpful.

Further incidents of editing will be reported as Vandalism.

-- unsigned comment


The above unsigned comments are unsigned and traceable only to an IP address. If you are serious about having your voice heard and participating in Wikipedia I strongly urge to to create yourself an account. If you have a personal stake in this (or are associated with a franchice or Trademark holder), identifying yourself would also help.
Please don't remove the content of talk pages.
When they say "is an accepted fact" I would like to see an independent reference of that.
Somewhere in all this revision the list of internation Ceroc groups has also vanished.
I would welcome a report of Vandalism. I've been a Ceroc dancer in several countries and would like to see this improved. Stuartyeates 14:40, 13 September 2006 (UTC)
I would put the onus back to you and ask that you give any diffinitive proof that the term "Modern Jive" was in use in the way you claim before 1980 (i.e. when term "Ceroc" was first coined - and of which there is absolute proof in many printed articles in the media). Indeed, any evidence to prove that the term "Modern Jive" existed before 1990 (when Robert Austin coined the phrase) would also be of interest.
-- unsigned comment

[edit] Lookups in the OED

I've just looked up in the online OED and neither Ceroc nor Modern Jive is listed. Jive, of course, goes back to the 1920s.

--Stuartyeates 15:33, 13 September 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Anti-competition

I'd like some discussion to be added regarding the anti-competitive activities of Ceroc Ent. One source is here on ceroc.com [1]

This shows that dancers taking lessons from Ceroc are:

  • forbidden from teaching Modern Jive (under any name) for 24 months
  • forbidden from mentioning any dance class (of any style) to Ceroc members, even outside of Ceroc events.
  • forbidden from passing on anything they have learnt within a Ceroc class in any way

It all sounds barmy and unenforcable to me, but I think it's important to mention in a balanced article on Ceroc Ent. --some dancer

[edit] Original Research, or...?

I was tempted to go over this URL: http://web.archive.org/web/*/http://www.ceroc.com

and make a chart showing the expansion of Ceroc Enterprises in the UK in terms of dancers and franchisees. Could be classed as original research, but I don't think it's wildly unreasonable. What do folks think? Martin 01:01, 28 December 2006 (UTC)

Grips about the politics of Ceroc Enterprises really have no place on Wiki, and certainly not on the Ceroc entry. I have created a seperate "Ceroc Enterprises" entry, where political history can be documented. (Please keep it factual, not based on "hearsay", and not biased towards or against Ceroc Enterprises.

Hang on: you're removing descriptions of Ceroc given by Ceroc enterprises. I don't see how that can be described as "hearsay". Martin 16:45, 5 January 2007 (UTC)
Changes made:
restore intro - it's a cited description of Ceroc given by Ceroc Enterprises, which independants would agree with - how is that political?
re-add ref for ideal tempo
re-add ref for use of the phrase "modern jive" to describe Ceroc, as done by Ceroc Enterprises
By the way, it appears that you reverted all of my pages solely over objections to the intro. Please don't do that.
Martin 17:06, 5 January 2007 (UTC)

[edit] French origin

Does anyone know what the relationship between ceroc and the "rock" danced in France is? The article is vague on this point. Is this an import? An new dance inspired by French "rock"? -anon

It's a new dance heavily inspired by French rock 'n' roll dancers. From reports by folks who've been there, French rock is different in that it is slotted and danced to faster music. Martin 11:04, 24 July 2007 (UTC)

[edit] styles of Ceroc

Some styles may concentrate on particular musical styles, such as swing.

This was marked as citation needed and I removed it. I'm not sure what this statement is getting at. Can it be reworded (and, yeah, cited). Martin

[edit] Candidate for rewrite by impartial source

Wiki editors should focus on the intent of this article, not just the "letter of the law". All of the External Links and Further Reading are from Conflict of Interest sources. Most of the references are, as well. Two of the References links are broken, leaving the article mostly self-advertising.

Other editors have, quite properly, asked for citations for phrases such as "makes it more accessible to beginners" and "males are less comfortable engaging in a partner dance with a member of the same sex than females are". The larger point, however, is being avoided or missed, which is that the article is largely comprised of unsubstantiated marketing material.

What's at issue here is a commercial concern subverting Wikipedia for its own ends.

24.130.9.210 (talk) 22:57, 13 May 2008 (UTC)