Talk:Cernunnos
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[edit] "Collective Saxon Psyche"?/
- It is, however, possible that Herne is a much-diluted incarnation of Cernunnos that was absorbed into the collective Saxon pyche.
Its not clear what that is supposed to mean. Does it mean that Saxons somehow came accross images of Cernunnos, in Merovingian Gaul, centuries after Christianisation, and then somehow this memory surfaced in Windsor forest for some unknown reason? It seems like pure speculation, unreferenced, and impossible to substantiate.
The urge to creata a separate article, Cernunnos (Wiccan) to give this sort of stuff a home is growing stronger .... --Nantonos 18:44, 31 March 2006 (UTC)
[edit] Removals
I removed "He was worshipped over a wide area of Europe, from Romania to Ireland, as evidenced by various representations found in around thirty different sites across the continent." because no evidence was presented for this, and a distribution map of archaeologically attested Cernunos representations does not extend anywhere near Ireland. I replaced this with a description of the actual artefact distribution.
I removed "providing an illustration of the way in which Celtic gods were absorbed into the Roman pantheon." because, unlike many other Gallo-Roman sculptures, it shows exactly the oppisite - Gaulish deities presented stand-alone as equals with the Roman deities, not assimilated onto them.
Added clarification about which tribe Lutetia was the capital of, and the date the monument was found. Removed mention of an altar, since the monument is way too tall (6m) for an altar.
I removed "the only written record" because that is incorrect, and added the other written records, two from Luxembourg and one from the Rhone valley.
Similarly I deleted "It is not known whether the name Cernunnos was a local name bestowed by the Parisii tribe (from whom Paris got its name) or was used by other Celtic tribes as well." because the other two inscriptions are from different tribes, which answers the question clearly.
The parenthetical statement about etymology, "(actually appearing as [_]ernunnos on the inscription - the first letter of the name having been scraped off at some point - but can safely be restituted to "Cernunnos" because of the depiction of an antlered god below the name and the fact that cern means "horn" or "bumb, boss" in Old Irish and is etymologically related to similar words in Welsh)" was moved to a separate paragraph and expanded.
The mention of "the Gauls did not use chairs" was removed as ahistorical, since Gaulish mother goddesses are shown seated in wickerwork chairs.
--Nantonos 21:38, 18 Jun 2005 (UTC)
I removed:
"He was believed to be born at the winter solstice, married a goddess at Beltane and died at the summer solstice annually. He is a life-death-rebirth deity."
Because it is an ahistorical neopagan belief projected back on to the past like several other things I removed. Like that Cernunos was worshipped all across Europe, despite the fact that there is only one instance of his name ever in historical finds, and there is only one other similiar depiction (the Gundestrop cauldron) in existance. Herne who he was connected with is also a late Anglo-Saxon folk-figure from the Windsor forest, therefore not Celtic, and not a pre-Christian God.
I removed
"the Horned One was worshipped by the iron age Celts all across Europe as late as the 1st century, and his worship must have begun centuries before that. Little is known about him since the Celts had no written language of their own and their druids were forbidden to write down their knowledge even though some of them knew Latin and Greek; everything we know about him can only be guessed at from images created by the Celts. His name "
This is completely ahistorical. We have one partial attestation of the name "Cernunnos" on the Parisi altar; it's missing the C, but the Cerne-reflex is fairly common in Celtic languages. There are other "horned man, sitting, with torcs and/or animals", most notably on the Gundestrup cauldron, but we do not know that they are the same deity.
I changed
"The word Cornu means "horned" in both modern French and in Latin, which was originally imposed upon them by the Romans."
To
The word Cornu means "horned" in both modern French and the cognate Celtic Cern_ means much the same.
We have no evidence at all that Latin was imposed on the Continental Celts; in fact there's some evidence that the reverse happened; Latin speakers learned the local language(s).
I changed the word Roman in
"Cernunnos is a Roman name meaning "Horned One," "
to Gaulish; it is a Gaulish word/name.
I deleted
probably the new Romanised name given by the Gauls to their very old horned god, in which case its use may have been widespread throughout Gaul after it became a Roman province.
Because the word is native Celtic, not Latin, thus original statement is false in every respect.
I deleted
He was believed to be born at the winter solstice, married a goddess at Beltane and died at the summer solstice annually. He is a life-death-rebirth deity.
Cave paintings in France from the Paleolithic show an upright stag; this may indicate that Cernunnos was worshipped in the Paleothic Era.
We have no data at all on Cernunnos other than the partial name, and some similar iconography--and not much of that.
The link between Paleolithic and Bronze//Iron age peoples is . . . daft in the extreme. The I.E. proto-language(s) were not even extant then! The peoples were genetically and linguisitically different; see Cunliffe et al.
I deleted
"The Druids knew him as Hu Gadarn or Herne, ruler of the underworld and astral planes."
Hu Gadarn is a sixteenth century Welsh figure, immortalized by IIolo Morganwg/Edward Williams. Herne is a late medieval Anglo-Saxon figure, not at all Celtic, and not at all likely to be someone known by the Celtic speaking druids.
I changed
"Because of his frequent association with beasts he is often referred to as The Lord of the Animals. Because of his association with stags in particular (a particularly hunted beast) he is also known as The Lord of the Hunt."
To
Because of his frequent association with beasts scholars often describe Cenunnos as The Lord of the Animals. Because of his association with stags in particular (a particularly hunted beast) he is also described as The Lord of the Hunt. Interestingly the Parisi altar links him with sailors, (the altar was dedicated by sailors) and with commerce (he is shown with coins).
We don't know how the Celts referred to him or saw him, except for the data in the iconography, and the only example we know with reasonable certainty is Cernunnos is the Parisi altar.
I changed
at Samhain, the Celtic Halloween Festival
To
at Samhain, the Celtic New Year Festival usually associated with October 31.
to clarify Samhain, and its relationship to the Celtic year. DigitalMedievalist 03:11, 6 Jan 2004 (UTC) Lisa
[edit] Iconography
I have my doubts about the "strikingly consistent" and "nearly always" claims. The paragraph seems just to describe the Gundestrup depiction, but phrasing it as if that was extremely common. Already the Pilier depiction doesn't have stag's horns at all, and it's just a head, with none of the other attributes. If we talk about striking consistence, we should name several examples that actually do coincide. dab (ᛏ) 07:52, 19 Jun 2005 (UTC)
I haven't got to working on the iconography yet. Wanted to get the first sets of edits in. Completely agree that a description of common attributes needs to be backed up by hard data. I do have a list of the Cernunnios representations known to me and (as in the preceeding section) will be referencing named depictions not some vague 'commonly' and 'often'. Its not just Gundestrup and the Pilier. The Pilier does indeed have stags horns (antlers) - I have seen the actual statue several times and photographed it. Its not 'just a head', either; its the head and shoulders to mid chest, on the top half of a block (other blocks, such as Tarvos Trigaranus, we have both the top and bottom halves, so we know that each block was in two halves of equal size). From that, clearly, the figure must have been seated in a cross legged fashion since there is no room for a standing or seated on a chair figure. --Nantonos 14:45, 19 Jun 2005 (UTC)
- Just from looking at the two photos currently on the site, I wouldn't say that the similarities are "strikingly consistent" – you might as fairly call it a family resemblance. (The antlers/horns look completely different, for a start.) QuartierLatin1968
21:25, 18 January 2006 (UTC)
-
- The analysis is not made on the basis of only two photos, but rather on the basis of the known corpus. --Nantonos 10:30, 19 January 2006 (UTC)
[edit] Welsh/Irish Allusions?
are there any allusions to Cernunnos or horned gods in Welsh or Irish medieval literature? i can't think of any, but it is possible that i am overlooking something. Whateley23 07:34, 17 August 2005 (UTC)
[edit] Some Comments
in the section titled "Origins", i don't know that it is accurate to say that the Minotaur is associated with "nature, animals, and the primordial wild", and there is little reason to suppose that Cernunnos is associated with those outside of the Gundestrup Cauldron. Whateley23 13:50, 26 September 2006 (UTC)
Cernunnos is, rather, associated with (to choose three obvious instances) sailors (Pillier des nautes, triton-like legs in some depictions, etc), with commerce (cornucopiae of coins), and with transformation from one state to another (antlers, theriomorphic form, etc). this would seem to make him more like Mercury/Hermes - though i have no references in that direction to hand, so i suppose that should be discarded as original research. Whateley23 13:50, 26 September 2006 (UTC)
there is not really any reason to believe that the "Sorceror" of Lascaux is horned, and less to believe that it is related in any way to Cernunnos. photos don't seem to show anything like the image that was originally hand-drawn by 20th century explorers. see, for instance, this image. contrarily, why is there no mention of the image at Val Camonica, which is much more likely to be related to Cernunnos? Whateley23 13:50, 26 September 2006 (UTC)
[edit] Some thoughts on Wiccan beliefs
-
- In Wicca, imagery derived from historical Celtic culture is sometimes used, including a depiction of Cernunnos, often referred to as The Horned God. This version of Cernunnos is based little on historical findings and more on phallic symbolism, merged from elements of Pan. The adherents generally follow a life-fertility-death cycle for Cernunnos, though his death is now usually set at Samhain, the Gaelic New Year Festival usually taking place on October 31.
Is there any need to discuss the wiccan beliefs here, perhaps linking to horned god would suffice? The sentence on historical basis is a little odd; there is little historical evidence to base anything on, and the phallic symbolism part is better dealt with in a larger article.
I will probably change this to be a more simple reference in the days to come if there is no feedback. BananaFiend 21:38, 10 August 2007 (UTC)
still no feedback? BananaFiend 12:58, 13 August 2007 (UTC)
- After advice on being bold, removing all discussion of wiccan beliefs, which are more suited to the main wiccan page. BananaFiend 14:34, 14 August 2007 (UTC)
[edit] Horns vs Antlers
It is clear from the Parisii monument and others of Cernunnos (especially on the Gundestrup cauldron) that Cernunnos has antlers and not horns. IMO, this is a significant difference.
Horns are made of keratin (the protein of the outer layer of the skin), are not alive, and do not shed seasonally. Cows, sheep, goats... have horns.
Antlers are made of bone and shed seasonally in most ungulates. Deer, Elk, Moose... have antlers.
One wonders if seasonal shedding had meaning to the Iron Age Celts? In any case, Cernunnos is aan antlered God, not a hornéd god.
Kernos (talk) 17:51, 27 December 2007 (UTC)
[edit] Finding of a reference to Cernunnos in Spain
Acordign this blog (in spanish):
http://castillapaganfront.blogia.com/2007/110601-estela-a-cerrnunnos.php —Preceding unsigned comment added by 81.37.93.236 (talk) 00:06, 7 February 2008 (UTC)
-
- http://www.my-forum.org/_224636/Estela_a_Cernunnos_en_CReal_232.html (A better photo). I don't know what "castillapaganfront" refers to, but the information seems true. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 79.144.161.186 (talk) 15:53, 19 February 2008 (UTC)
