Talk:Centralia, Pennsylvania

From Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

 This is not a forum for general discussion of Centralia, Pennsylvania.
Any such messages will be deleted. Please limit discussion to improvement of the article.
This article or page is part of WikiProject Ghost towns, a collaborative effort to improve Wikipedia's coverage of ghost towns. If you would like to participate, you can visit the project page, where you can join the project and see a list of open tasks.
B This article has been rated as B-Class on the assessment scale.
Top This article has been rated as top-importance on the assessment scale.
Pennsylvania Portal
Centralia, Pennsylvania is part of WikiProject Pennsylvania, which is building a comprehensive and detailed guide to Pennsylvania on Wikipedia. To participate, you can edit the attached article, join or discuss the project.
B This article has been rated as B-Class on the quality scale.
Mid This article has been rated as mid-importance on the importance scale.

Contents

[edit] Demographics

I found this in the article. It's obviously erroneous, based on both the other demographic data and simple sanity checking: "Males have a median income of $0 versus $0 for females." Vicki Rosenzweig 01:29 1 Jul 2003 (UTC)

How egalitarian! When I get some more information, I'm thinking of mentioning some of demographics prior to the fire. --cprompt

[edit] Silent Hill

Wasn't this the inspiration for the video game Silent Hill and the subsequent movie? I could swear it is... derfsquared

[edit] Geography problem

In the Geography section, there is a repition of the area of the town as 0.6 km², but also the are covered by water as 0.6 km². It seems the town would be somewhat larger, so perhaps that is strictly the underwater area.

[edit] Controversy and/or Citations

Attributing the trash fire is bad form for an encyclopedia article. The Centralia coal fire, probably the most famous in the United States, is partly famous because no one knows how the fire began. The trash theory is certainly a strong possibility, but there are a half-dozen others, apparent to anyone who does the slightest amount of research. The cause is, ultimately, a mystery, and should not be represented otherwise. 06:00, 26 Jun 2005 (UTC)

Light a lamp instead of cursing the darkness. — Fingers-of-Pyrex 00:49, 2005 Jun 27 (UTC)

Attributing the fire to a trash fire is not a theory, it is a fact. I was there. —The preceding unsigned comment was added by 70.16.113.109 (talk • contribs) .

You make no indication of who you are, so that doesn't help. Simply asserting something is not good enough for an encyclopedia. Loganberry (Talk) 04:26, 20 December 2005 (UTC)

Unseen Danger (cited in the references) does set forth the trash fire theory with supporting evidence, so it deserves mention, even if only as a viable theory. —The preceding unsigned comment was added by 63.100.44.148 (talk • contribs) .

I live 20 minutes from centrailia, I grew up in the area, the factual evidence is they burned a pile of trash in a new corner of the landfill pit, and caught the exposed vein alight... Sponge!
Then feel free to provide additional sources to support the aforementioned reference. --Bossi (talk ;; contribs) 01:30, 22 March 2007 (UTC)
Smithsonian article, May 2005, Fire In The Hole "The Centralia fire probably got going in May 1962, when local sanitation workers began burning trash at a site over an old mine entrance just outside town, igniting the underlying coal." Mredden 02:54, 23 March 2007 (UTC)

[edit] New photos, March 21 2007

Glad to have been passing through Centralia today with my camera. The snow made it easy to tell where the ground is hottest. Also encountered a fellow from the PA DEP that was doing biannual measurements on bore holes for measuring temperature under the streets. The photo of the hole with the steam escaping is after he removed the rag stuffed inside to plug it up. The rag was tattered from the effects of sulfuric acid. A good whiff of it is nothing but brimstone. The worker noted that there are very few residents who call Centralia home anymore, perhaps only 4-6 individuals. My guess is the rest who were counted on the most recent census have skipped town.

Mredden 04:59, 22 March 2007 (UTC)

I'd like to split the gallery I posted into two. It was brought to my attention that the gallery interrupted the flow of the article. Was thinking of taking four of these pictures, relating them to "Centralia Today", and leaving the DEP measurements and the church picture at the bottom. Your input is appreciated. I pass through Centralia a few times a week and will usually stop to take pictures of anything that's changed, or unusual. Mredden 18:11, 24 March 2007 (UTC)

Very great website. I understand why half the town left and possibly eleven are still around. I don't understand why those people that are still there live there. I wouldn't want to live there cos of the dangerous toxins and smoke. I guess they called it home. Just a question-how do the remaining people survive by means of income, food and such? I was curious to know since I live in the Midwest.

[edit] How do people survive here?

Centralia is in a rural area, but there are nearby towns. So the people who live there presumably have jobs, and visit the same stores as the people in the nearby areas. —Preceding unsigned comment added by Jrmski (talk • contribs) 20:24, 21 April 2007

Firstly, there are very very few people living there; and secondly, in general, it is not toxic nor particularly dangerous. Of course, there is a possibility that a cave-in and/or explosion may occur; but in general it's a habitable area and actually a significant tourist destination. --Bossi (talk ;; contribs) 21:27, 21 April 2007 (UTC)

[edit] ZIP Code

The article lists Centralia's (revoked) ZIP as 17927, but the USPS' ZIP lookup page gives it as 17921. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 71.224.25.204 (talk) 17:36, 5 May 2007 (UTC)

17921 is a working zip code which covers nearby towns, whereas 17927 is the revoked zip code which is no longer active. Check out this link and try 17921: you will find that it is specifically for Ashland, Pennsylvania. Here are some links confirming 17927:
Thanks for spotting this, though! It's good to have people keeping an eye out for things which don't quite seem right. --Bossi (talk ;; contribs) 17:48, 5 May 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Huh.

So if there's an underground coal fire raging with enough fuel to keep it going practically forever, keeping the underground temperature at remarkable levels, why hasn't this been recognized as a geothermal power source by some enterprising soul? I'm almost sure you could generate nontrivial amounts of electricity from that kind of temperature differential. -Toptomcat 04:52, 9 May 2007 (UTC)

I believe it is largely due to the unknown risks that would come with building a structure on top of an uncontrollable fire. Nobody wants their fancy new plant to go BOOM ;) Otherwise a good idea, though! --Bossi (talk ;; contribs) 12:09, 9 May 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Population?

The main article lists the current population of Centralia as 9. However, when I visited the town on June 2, 2007 and spoke to one of the very few residents, he claimed it was actually 15.

Though somewhat elderly, the man seemed lucid enough and he IS a permanent resident, so I'm wondering if the population count on the main page is incorrect.

Anyone know for sure?

I just visited the town this weekend, and there were - I believe - 5 houses that are clearly lived in. I counted a total of 12 cars at these 5 houses, so it stands to reason the population is more than 9. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 216.165.42.31 (talk) 22:11, 4 December 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Silent hill

Is the Silent Hill horror movie based on this town? Peacekeeper II 04:48, 11 June 2007 (UTC)

the movie is, no word about whether the game is.DurinsBane87 05:17, 11 June 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Plans for firebreaks or coal harvesting ?

The article states there are no current plans to do anything about the fire.

Could someone add coverage as to why NOT? Have there been studies into cutting a firebreak around the mine area by harvesting unburning coal, if the seam is shallow? Or is it so deep that the majority of coal would have to remain in a vertical area under or above the existing fire? Or is the fire so wide that it already invovles a majority of the potentially accessible coal? Or is it just too uncertain whether anything could be done without unacceptable danger? Or is it an effective tourist draw for the region? Or is the ongoing environmental impact seen as insignificant?

Also, have there been any attempts to seal surface air entrances, flood the mine with water, etc.? The article vaguely says something ilke "several attempts to extinguish the fire failed". What were those attempts and why were they abandoned? --Parsiferon (talk) 15:52, 30 December 2007 (UTC)

While I can't provide any sources, I suspect your latter suspicion is correct: there is just too much uncertainty and risk involved with an attempt to harvest around the fire. If a company were to make an attempt, MSHA and OSHA would be staring over its shoulder and whilst the company may find a coal mine; lawyers would see a gold mine. One flare-up and one injury later: the whole operation could end. Keep in mind that mining can kick up a fair amount of coal dust -- which may rapidly cumbust around a work site (though the area could be dampened with continuous sprinklers to reduce the level of dust in the air). The price of coal just isn't high enough yet to justify the risk.
For tourism, it's really more of a local tourist attraction in the sense that most people who visit aren't going to stay in the area. As interesting as it is, it only takes about 30 minutes to see everything; for a traveler from far away, it's at best a day trip from New York or Philly. The nearest tourist infrastructure would probably be in Bloomsburg, and even then it's geared more toward parents of the university students than tourism. Even nearby Knoebels is rather sparse when it comes to hotels and restaurants, though there are a couple near there.
I suspect that flooding the mine is not preferable. The water itself could destabilise the ground and cause sinkholes to develop throughout the town. Additionally, when the water hits the fire, the steam generated could cause further erosion and could potentially build up pressure and cause an explosion. Granted, the risk of sinkholes and explosions is already present with the fire: but it's unlikely that a government could risk an option which may cause further destruction due to tort liability -- even if that same level of destruction may eventually occur in the long-term. Another thought is that the water used would become highly acidic and toxic -- after fighting the fire, you'd next have to fight the water.
After doing a quick Google search, it appears that there has been some research into using fire suppression agents either directly or as a method to at least enter the mine and then physically suppress the fire (potentially permitting mining in coordination with fire suppression).[1] Sealing the mines looks to have been another option, but there may just be too many openings for air flow -- requiring an extremely accurate & precise survey which must be completed before new openings develop. Another thought was to dig deep trenches around the site and fill them with a non-combustible material (this was attempted) or completely excavate the site, but both run into safety and technical issues (and the funding issues which result). This website from a Penn Stater offers some excellent insight of potential options and the economic impacts, though if it is a student's website: it may eventually disappear after the student graduates.
It is likely that until the price of coal increases, the cost-benefit of any action just doesn't justify either a public or private investment in stopping the fire. The private point of view is looking at profits versus risk of lawsuits due to injury and damage. The public point of view will consider revenue from taxing the industrial development of the mine versus the risk of lawsuits due to injury and damage; but the public sector must also consider the need for action. As the area is now very sparsely populated, the need has largely disappeared since the 1960's and 70's. Since initial efforts to contain the fire failed (apparently due to political wrangling of the funds, ultimately causing the attempts to come up short), the "no action" (akin to an engineer's "no build") option appears to have become the more preferable, leading to the order in 1997 to abandon the town.[2][3] Sad for the locals whose lives and family grew up on and around the mine, but ultimately the dollars that would have had to be spent there were found to be better used elsewhere.
There is also the potential to eventually develop and market the area as a tourist attraction, though I suspect the public sector will not directly encourage such due to liability (not to say that they may not be tourism incentives in neighboring jurisdictions). For now, the mine isn't particularly well-known outside of eastern PA, but who knows: with time it could be marketed as a sort of Prypiat for America -- "disaster tourism". --Bossi (talk • gallery • contrib) 18:52, 30 December 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Article style is great

There is a warmth (ha ha) to the article that is missing in other Wikipedia articles - it is a great read; don't change it. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 143.167.10.179 (talk) 14:48, 11 February 2008 (UTC)

[edit] Panoramic view of Route 61

I've just uploaded a photo (made from 8 photos) of Route 61, not sure exactly where to add it, if at all...

-- MacAddct  1984 (talk • contribs) 13:17, 26 April 2008 (UTC)

Down at the bottom of the article page would be a good spot. Nice pic. Dincher (talk) 15:06, 26 April 2008 (UTC)