Talk:Central Bank of the Republic of China (Taiwan)

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[edit] Pinyin

On the pages related to PRC, we use pinyin to show the pronunciation, but is using pinyin on the pages related to ROC appropriate? So far as I know, pinyin is not recognized in ROC. --ILovEJPPitoC 10:13, 8 Oct 2003 (UTC)

moved to Wikipedia talk:Naming conventions (Chinese) for further discussion.

(regarding this edit) Should this article better be categorised under category:Banks of the Republic of China and category:Republic of China instead of category:Banks of Taiwan and category:Taiwan? It's a central bank of the State. — Instantnood 20:05, Mar 24, 2005 (UTC)

[edit] Name change?

When was the name changed to "Central Bank of the Republic of China (Taiwan)"? Only the banner image of the website has changed. Press releases continue to use "Central Bank of China". Wouldn't this name change be backed by something official from the bank's governing board and news reports?--Jiang 04:07, 11 February 2007 (UTC)

The name was formally changed in the past 48 hours, and news of the change was backed by press statements and news reports; cf. http://www.taipeitimes.com/News/front/archives/2007/02/11/2003348509 Konekoniku 22:58, 11 February 2007 (UTC)

I removed this passage "The name change of this institution is one instance of the "Campaign for the Correction of Names", an attempt to have all state-owned enterprises bearing the name "China" replaced" with "Taiwan" associated with the Taiwan independence and Taiwanese localization movements" This passage does not seem to fit this article. The name of the bank still includes China , although taiwan was added on to the end. The other changes actually replaced 中華 with 臺灣. (中華郵政 -> 臺灣郵政 & 中國石油 -> 台灣中油 & 中國造船 ->台灣國際造船) Also, the CBC is not a state-owned enterprise. Wenzi 15:26, 12 February 2007 (UTC)

maybe that wasnt the best way to phrase thing, but it should be mentioned in the article that the Central Bank was renamed with these other companies as part of the same initative by Chen Shui-bian. let's keep the content there.--Jiang 18:17, 12 February 2007 (UTC)
For CBC (or CBROC(T)......), it is true that the word "China" is still retained. But the motivation is the same as other examples given here. The bank is not an enterprise, it may not be state owned. But it is state-controlled. --ChoChoPK (球球PK) (talk | contrib) 20:48, 12 February 2007 (UTC)
I do agree that it should be mentioned that these names were all changed around the same time by the same initative. The phrasing of that would be hard, as the CBC did not change the name in Chinese characters, but changed the name in English only. The CBC did announce the name change [[1]] to make it official. The name in English is not specified in any law so the CBC can change that at any time. So what about something along the line of "the name was changed as part of an initiative to stike a distiction between chinese and taiwanese entities that includes the "Campaign for the Correction of Names", an attempt to have all state-owned enterprises bearing the name "China" replaced" with "Taiwan" Wenzi 18:52, 13 February 2007 (UTC)

The Central Bank of China's name was not changed at all. Just by changing the website for English does not mean there is an official name change. The officials of the government have to change it including bank officials, plus a resolution or amendment of the law establishing the Central Bank in the Legislative Yuan. Slightly changing the website name does not make it an official change. Therefore, this article should not be moved to the website title. If you insist on doing that, shouldn't we also move the Republic of China article to Republic of China (Taiwan) because so many government websites use that, including www.gio.gov.tw. -Sid212 23:07, 12 February 2007 (UTC)

Sorry Sid212, but the name has been changed. The legislation does not specify an English name and the CBC has chosen to change it. If you can cite a source that contradicts the CBC , please cite it. Thanks. Wenzi

[edit] Central Bank of China's name was not changed.

Only merely the website just changed. A web page changing does not signal a real name change. I have a few reliable sources from the CBC itself and from the ROC Central News Agency. http://www.cna.com.tw/eng/cepread.php?id=200703140015 The first link is the Central News Agency in which it it calls the bank Central Bank of China. That was a very recent news article before all this commotion. http://www.cbc.gov.tw/EngHome/AboutThebBank.asp This is a link from the CBC website itself. There is a link to a PDF file about the history of the CBC. It only uses Central Bank of China, NOT Central Bank of the Republic of China (Taiwan). Also this link shows the brief history about the CBC and does not state a name change at all. It only uses Central Bank of China. http://www.cbc.gov.tw/EngHome/esecretariat/aboutthebank/Brief.asp Alex678 23:48, 17 March 2007 (UTC)

Would someone mind moving this article to Central Bank of China. I don't know how. Thank you. Alex678 06:20, 18 March 2007 (UTC)

Disagree. The official English designation has been changed, according to numerous news reports (e.g., http://www.taipeitimes.com/News/front/archives/2007/02/11/2003348509). There are also numerous clear examples where this new official English name is in use, as evidenced by http://www.google.com/search?q=%22central+bank+of+the+republic+of+china%22&btnG=Search&hl=en . Your links do make it clear that government agencies are only slowly adjusting to the English name change, but the fact that the official name has been changed is explicitly supported by the overwhelming weight of the evidence, including news articles and press releases. If you disagree, please identify several news articles and press releases which explicitly support your position.

Konekoniku 01:32, 28 April 2007 (UTC)

Some website designation does not change the official name. There was no amendment or nothing. The government continues to use Central Bank of China, apart from the website. TingMing

According to all newspaper articles referenced, the official English name was changed. In particular, the China Post article linked declares:

The monetary authority originally referred to itself as "Central Bank of China, Republic of China (Taiwan)", but will now have use the English name: "Central Bank of the Republic of China (Taiwan)."... In addition to immediately applying the new name to all its documents and publications under its own control, the bank plans to use the new designation at international conferences, including the annual conference of the Asian Development Bank.

Thus it is clearly an official change: they intend to use the new English name in all agency publications, and intend to have foreign agencies refer to them by the new name as well. You can't get any more official than that.

If you wish to argue the contrary, please provide newspaper articles explicitly supporting your stance as I have done. Also, note that nearly all government business is conducted in Chinese, and the Chinese name was not changed. This might be the cause of much confusion. Pending independent newspaper verification of your stance, I have reverted the change. Konekoniku 05:05, 1 May 2007 (UTC)

It was included in the Central News Agency article. Also, the website explicity says its Central Bank of China, not anything else TingMing 05:28, 1 May 2007 (UTC)
The CNA article is no longer accessible, and moreover, I believe it did not explicitly refute the name change. Moreover, the CBC website explicitly says it is the Central Bank of the Republic of China (Taiwan), as evidenced by "Welcome to the Central Bank of the Republic of China (Taiwan)". Please provide linked evidence explicitly refuting both the CBC website and the multiple independent local newspaper articles. Konekoniku 05:33, 1 May 2007 (UTC)

I saw the CNA article. It is a direct government source. Also, another user saw it as well. That is why he or she moved it to Central Bank of China in the first place. Your moving is groundless and without discussion. It was okay before you came along and moved it. TingMing 05:38, 1 May 2007 (UTC)

Moving was done with ample discussion, as evidenced by the history of the page dating back to February 2007. Please review it if you wish. I also read the CNA article, and as I recall it never explicitly stated that the name change was not official. Konekoniku 05:44, 1 May 2007 (UTC)

That CNA article had nothing to do with the name change so stop lying. It was there a long time ago. www.cna.com.tw/eng has the link to the CBC on the left hand. It still says Central Bank of China. Cleary there is no Change. Do not lie and assume good faith! TingMing 05:45, 1 May 2007 (UTC)

What do you mean, stop lying? I never said it had anything to do with the name change. So much for "assume good faith" on your part... Moreover, the CBC website is probably the most authoritative source regarding the CBC's own name – certainly more authoritative than the website of a completely different agency. Konekoniku 05:49, 1 May 2007 (UTC)

Nobody besides you stated whether it was okay or not. There was no agreement reached in any discussion before your unilateral page moves. Besides, the previous user you mentioned (I suppose it is Alex678) has been identified and blocked as a sockpuppet of User:Nationalist, of whom you are also identified as a "possible" sockpuppet, therefore none of you three should be recognized as three different individuals with his own opinions at any case. Also, please assume good faith yourself because telling others to "stop lying" is not assuming good faith. And I have yet to see any sign of attack message from Konekoniku. Vic226 05:52, 1 May 2007 (UTC)

I am not a sockpuppet of Nationalist. So there is no reason you should change course of what we are discussing about. That has nothing to do with this at all. Stop trying to insinuate something. Check user has already proved that I am not. Why dont you tell the guy to do another one instead of insinuating me? The other person made the change. Why dont you check the logs? Alex678 did not Make the Move. TingMing 01:01, 2 May 2007 (UTC)

You are a possible sock of Nationalist. I personally think that it is just ridiculous that we even have to have this discussion. The official website of the Central Bank already calls itself the Central bank of the ROC (Taiwan). I don't get why it's so difficult for you to get it.--Jerrypp772000 01:09, 2 May 2007 (UTC)
There is no point arguing about this so let's put it aside. I would like you to explain the obvious part of the "proof" that "Alex678" provided: [2] and [3], as well as [4], all taken from the discussion above. Now, before I saw the page finish downloading the heading of the HTML page explicitly said "Welcome to Central Bank of the Republic of China (Taiwan)". And your accusation of Konekoniku on his page moves being "groundless and without discussion" is, to me, unjustified. He has provided a valid news source that reports about Central Bank dropping the "China" label, per the 3rd link above.
You have claimed above: "The government continues to use Central Bank of China, apart from the website"; "I saw the CNA article. It is a direct government source. Also, another user saw it as well.". However, your statement is invalid because you have no source to back it up. That is, we have yet to see a source that explicitly names the bank "Central Bank of China". Also, your assertion of having read the CNA article does not constitute a valid proof of your statement; we did not see it, and it's no longer there for us to see. Therefore the "CNA article", which no longer exists, cannot be used as a source just because someone else has seen it, even if it is from a direct government source.
It has also been stressed that although the name for the bank in Chinese has not changed, CBC made their change in English name official. User:Wenzi has already provided the link in the discussion above [5]. If you wish to counter any of the above statements, backed up with valid sources, please include other sources to support your claim. Vic226 06:43, 2 May 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Name not changed

See www.cna.com.tw/eng Left part has links and still has Central Bank of China. Central News Agency is a government run agency of the Republic of China. TingMing 22:07, 5 May 2007 (UTC)

Name was changed. That page isn't updated. When you click on that link, it leads here, where it says Central Bank of the Republic of China (Taiwan).--Jerrypp772000 22:58, 5 May 2007 (UTC)

Name was not changed. A few frivolous changes on a website does not change the English name altogether. The Central Bank of China did it only for clarification. It still is called the Central Bank of China. TingMing 02:13, 7 May 2007 (UTC)

Again, the CBC website is the most authoritative source on its own name. Moreover, this is backed up by numerous independent sources as well. Please obtain consensus before attempting the same revert again.Konekoniku 04:19, 7 May 2007 (UTC)
TingMing, let me ask you one simple question: if the Central Bank didn't change its name, why would it change its website's name?--Jerrypp772000 19:01, 7 May 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Proof that name not changed.

Central News Agency is a highly reliable government news agency. This article was published just today showing that the name was not changed. Merely the English website was slightly changed to provide disambiguatiion. That does not mean the official English name was changed. TingMing 01:29, 8 May 2007 (UTC) http://www.cna.com.tw/eng/topread.php?id=200705070009

The CBC is a highly reliable government agency as well, and is the most authoritative source on its own name. Konekoniku 02:22, 8 May 2007 (UTC)
Just because the article mentions CBC instead of CBROC (TWN) does not defeat the fact that CBC itself has officially changed its name to CBROC (TWN).
Oh, FYI, the latter is backed up with primary sources. Take a look up there. Vic226說 05:21, 8 May 2007 (UTC)

The article not only said CBC. It said Central Bank of China. Primary sources are right here on the Central Bank Of China's website: Go here and click on the Adobe PDF and Brief History. It says Central Bank of China. Read both. http://www.cbc.gov.tw/EngHome/AboutThebBank.asp TingMing 05:43, 9 May 2007 (UTC)

Yes, however you still haven't addressed two main issues. One, the main front page of the website is the one most likely to be up to date, and it clearly declares Central Bank of the Republic of China (Taiwan). Two, multiple independent newspapers have explicitly confirmed the name change. To refute this, please present some articles from reputable sources explicitly declaring that no English name change was made. I completely agree with you that the CBC and CNA are being very slow in adjusting to the name change, however. Konekoniku 06:15, 9 May 2007 (UTC)

There was no change. The Central News Agency news article written yesterday explicitly said Central Bank of China. For CNA, its homepage has a link to the Central Bank of China. It says Central Bank of China. The CNA updates its home page every few hours. The Central Bank of China only changed its website homepage slightly in order "make it clear" that this is not from Communist China. It is like www.president.gov.tw. That website says President of the Republic of China (Taiwan). However, no title has been changed whatsoever. A simple website change doesn't change the existing regulations/laws/and Constitution. Both CNA and CBC are from the government. The news sources that you gave me are the pro-independence pro-green sources. Of course, they dont want the word "China" anywhere. obviously they want (Taiwan). Those are not reputable. I am giving direct government sources. TingMing 08:31, 9 May 2007 (UTC)

Three things. First, you cannot make an effective argument by simply stating that all sources which disagree with you are not credible. Second, as I recall China Post actually leans blue, and is Taipei Times' main ideological competitor in the Taiwanese English-language newspaper market. Thus I have presented you with two sources, one each from both sides of the political spectrum – perhaps as bipartisan and NPOV as I could get it. None of the sources you have presented explicitly deny the name change reported by the two sources I have presented you. Third, we thus have two major lines of evidence:
1) The official English name of the CBC has been changed (CBC website, China Post, and Taipei Times), and
2) The CNA and a few other government agencies continue to refer to the CBC in English by its former name (CNA).
These two lines of evidence are not contradictory. Konekoniku 08:45, 9 May 2007 (UTC)
I agree with TingMing. If you can rename President of the Republic of China to President of the Republic of China (Taiwan) without causing too much trouble, then I wouldn't mind the current title with (Taiwan). Bank of Korea's website says "The Bank of Korea" in their logo. Why don't you move that article too? --ChoChoPK (球球PK) (talk | contrib) 08:48, 9 May 2007 (UTC)
Have you read the articles in question? (Taiwan) is an official part of the new name that was adopted – we're not just adding it in for clarification. Konekoniku 08:49, 9 May 2007 (UTC)

Obviously TingMing is the only user that disagrees with using ROC (Taiwan), I suggest that we protect this article until a consensus is reached to stop the edit warring.--Jerrypp772000 21:20, 9 May 2007 (UTC)

I think protection might be premature. He has not sought to unilaterally revert the page lately, and for the past few days have confined his objections to this talk page, where discussion certainly is welcomed. Konekoniku 21:45, 9 May 2007 (UTC)
See, Chochopk also agrees with me. www.president.gov.tw shows President of the Republic of China (Taiwan). Then Konekoniku, go move the Wikipedia article from President of the Republic of China to President of the Republic of China (Taiwan). These are simple website changes that do nothing. Why dont you change Executive Yuan to Executive Yuan of the Republic of China (Taiwan). How about the Legislative Yuan? Are you going to move it to Legislative Yuan of R.O.C. because the website says that. A website is not the single authoritative source. You cant make up your mind on a website. I think Wikipedia is better than that. Clearly, the government still uses Central Bank of China. The website is only disambiugation just like the news articles say. The CBC officials say that it is for clarification. Why didnt they change the URL? Why didnt they change other stuff? TingMing 03:18, 10 May 2007 (UTC)
I completely agree with you, the website alone would be inadequate, for much the same reasons you described. However, we have two independent, bipartisan newspaper articles from highly reliable sources (China Post and Taipei Times are two of the largest English newspapers in Taiwan) which explicitly state that an official name change took place. This is why I have asked you to present independent newspaper articles explicitly contradicting the articles that have been presented. I should also note that the newspaper articles state that although the official English name was changed to Central Bank of the Republic of China (Taiwan), the official English acronym is still CBC, and the official Chinese name has also remained unchanged. Moreover, I think it's clear to everyone that despite the official name change, many government agencies in Taiwan have proved slow to adapt and still continue to use the former name. This explains much of the confusion over the issue, but raise no fundamental contradiction with what the article states now.
With regards to the President of the Republic of China issue, if I did find a newspaper article that explicitly stated that the official name of the office has been changed to the President of the Republic of China (Taiwan), I would certainly go ahead and make that change, while linking to the newspaper articles as evidence supporting my action. Konekoniku 03:57, 10 May 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Move Warring

This is just a note I'm leaving for future admin or other investigations. This page should not be un-move-protected until a suitable name has been chosen. This protection is not an endorsement by me or any other admin of the current name. -Royalguard11(Talk·Review Me!) 21:41, 12 May 2007 (UTC)

It is obvious that it should be Central Bank of the Republic of China (Taiwan), it is backed up by sources. And that's what the official website calls itself.--Jerrypp772000 21:45, 12 May 2007 (UTC)
I filed the Move Protection request based on the history. - Penwhale | Blast him / Follow his steps 22:35, 12 May 2007 (UTC)
And just for the record, protection was based solely on the history (anything over 2-3 moves a day is a move war in my opinion, vandalism/cleanup being the exception). -Royalguard11(Talk·Review Me!) 02:25, 13 May 2007 (UTC)
Don't mind the move protection at all. However, I think it's not of any particular use right now, since there hasn't been a move war over this page for several days now and all parties seem to be happily discussing the matter in good faith. Konekoniku 03:44, 13 May 2007 (UTC)
Well, there's an ongoing RfAr regarding one of the parties -- and as such, this article may be used as evidence in that case. - Penwhale | Blast him / Follow his steps 06:11, 13 May 2007 (UTC)
Ahh, that explains it.Konekoniku 09:26, 13 May 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Once again

Name was not changed. it is still Central Bank of China. Check here for the latest news source (yesterday) from the central government run Central News Agency. http://www.cna.com.tw/eng/cepread.php?id=200706040037 This news that it was changed is ridiculous. TingMing 22:53, 5 June 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Move to Central Bank of China

"Central Bank of the Republic of China (Taiwan)" is a description, not a name. The name of the institution is "Central Bank of China": CBC Introduction.

If you argue that the "of China" bit isn't being used by the current government (e..g "the Central Bank is..." [6]), then the page should be at "Central Bank (Taiwan)" or "Central Bank (Republic of China)". The current title is neither official name nor common usage. --PalaceGuard008 01:35, 20 June 2007 (UTC)

Again, repeating what has been stated before, here we have two independent, bipartisan newspaper articles from highly reliable sources (China Post and Taipei Times are two of the largest English newspapers in Taiwan) which explicitly state that an official name change took place. Is it your position that: a) both of these newspaper sources were wrong in their reporting, b) they were correct but the official name has since reverted back? If a), please provide reliable sources that explicitly state the contrary (that the official name of the CBC was not changed). If b), please provide reliable sources that indicate when the reversion took place. Konekoniku 16:10, 21 July 2007 (UTC)
I'll quote directly from the newspaper articles to which you have referred:
1. the Taipei Times article says:
"The nation's central bank announced yesterday it had changed its English designation as shown on its official Web site"
What does this show? It shows that the central bank has decided to change the English designation as shown on its official Web site. Nothing more, nothing less.
A fortiori, it does not say anything about the name of the bank being changed. As the rest of the paragraph discloses, the bank is identifying itself as "the Central Bank of the Republic of China (Taiwan)" in order to avoid confusion between its official name, Central Bank of China, with the central bank of "China" - i.e. the PRC.
2. the China Post article also says:
"The nation's central bank announced yesterday it has changed its English designation as shown on its official Web site in a move to avoid possible confusion with financial institutions in China."
Exactly the same argument applies.
So what do these newspaper articles show? They show that the bank has taken to referring to itself on its website as the "Central Bank of the Republic of China (Taiwan)". They do not show any law or company constitutional document has changed.
What do we have, then?
We have two newspaper articles saying the way the bank refers to itself on its webiste has changed - which we already know from the website.
We have the front page of the official website, which refers to itself as the "Central Bank of the Republic of China (Taiwan)" - as I said, a description - and other pages on the official website, which explicitly say that the bank is called the Central Bank of China (see first post in this section for links) - consistent, I believe, with the relevant laws and company constitutional documents.
The gist of this is that: the bank is called the Central Bank of China, but the bank also calls itself the Central Bank of the Republic of China (Taiwan). Which is the name of the organisation? That contained in the relevant laws and constitutional documents, surely. --PalaceGuard008 (Talk) 05:46, 2 November 2007 (UTC)

The name we are seeking to use is, I suppose, either the common name or the official name. With this being an institution closely tied to government, the official name would be the legal name. Looking at the website under a section called "laws" I found that the recent articles use the term "Central Bank of the Republic of China (Taiwan)". See here and click the "browse laws" tab for the section containing the examples. Based on this, in combination with the newspaper articles and the name given by the opening page of the website, I think it makes sense to use the name "Central Bank of the Republic of China (Taiwan)" as the majority of evidence leans that direction. I'm not saying the evidence is conclusive, but it has the preponderance of evidence on its side. If we are to use the name "Central Bank of China", I think we need some evidence that that is still the proper English name for the institution. Readin (talk) 21:14, 26 January 2008 (UTC)

I'm going to let this issue rest for now, because the bank clearly wants to be known as the "Central Bank of the Republic of China (Taiwan)", so much so that it has mis-translated its organic laws to achieve the impression that it does bear that name.
I'm not kidding: check the Chinese version of the Central Bank Law: [7], which is called "Central Bank Law", 中央銀行法, and makes no mention of "Republic of China (Taiwan)" whatsoever. The bank's name is simply defined as "Central Bank". Whereas the English version [8] plasters the "of the Republic of China (Taiwan)" bit everywhere.
The law has not been changed -- as might be expected. A Kuomintang-controlled Legislative Yuan would never swallow a change like that. But apparently the omission in the Chinese version leaves ample space for imaginative translations in English.
The legal name in Chinese is simploy "Central Bank", "中央銀行", but the bank itself seems to think this translates to "Central Bank of the Republic of China (Taiwan)". A novel approach, I suppose, but I guess it's their name and they can do whatever they want with it untill and unless the government puts a stop to it. --PalaceGuard008 (Talk) 06:39, 22 April 2008 (UTC)

It is not uncommon for the correct or preferred translation to be something other than the literal translation. For example, "Mei Guo" is not a literal translation of "The United States of America". The best example may be "Red Tea" and "Black Tea" (which continues to confuse me). You're probably right that the Kuomintang would never go for changing the law to reflect the bank's current role. If the ROC ever passed a law to determine the correct English name of the bank and you have a reference for it, we'll need to revisit this issue. Without such a law, the bank's website and the translations of recent laws are probably the best indicator for the correct English translation of the name. Don't fret too much. President-elect Ma will probably change it back to the misleading "Bank of China" soon.Readin (talk) 22:31, 22 April 2008 (UTC)

I doubt he will. There will just be more obfuscation as the government fiddles with translations, brackets, and common/official/legal/trading names. Now we have an organisation called China (Chung Hwa) Post by law, trading (technically illegally) as Taiwan Post, but printing stamps that bear "Republic of China" in Chinese, but "Republic of China (Taiwan)" in English. By comparison, the Central Bank naming is crystal clear.
Later this year Taiwan will probably be posting a de facto embassy in mainland China - I'm waiting with intense interest to see what they're going to call it. --PalaceGuard008 (Talk) 02:36, 23 April 2008 (UTC)

[edit] Name is "Central Bank of the Republic of China"

http://www.cna.com.tw/CNAeng/RealTimeNews/NewsDetail.aspx?strNewsDate=&strNewsID=200803270055&strType=EM

There is no (Taiwan) afterwards. Someone should move the article to the proper name. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 71.141.114.182 (talk) 17:49, 28 March 2008 (UTC)

I clicked the link, it didn't go to a useful page. There was no mention on the page of a bank. Anyway, we have more reliable sources that say there is a "(Taiwan)" at the end of the name.Readin (talk) 22:33, 22 April 2008 (UTC)