Talk:Cellar door
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Great phrase yes?
Yes, IMO :) --Missmarple 09:08, 7 August 2005 (UTC)
This is the most obscure thing I've written on Wikipedia, and the thing I'm most satisfied with. :-) – Pladask 09:20, August 7, 2005 (UTC)
What has Monty Phyton got to do with 'cellar door'? And why does this article link to the 'inherently funny word' article? --Missmarple 10:26, 3 December 2005 (UTC)
Because the Monty Python sketch involves inherently soothing and irritating words, and because that and an article on inherently funny words are generally seen to be related to an article on inherently beautiful words. Gzuckier 15:59, 5 December 2005 (UTC)
I don't agree that it's a good reason to put them in the 'cellar door' article. Maybe in an article about English language, or the 'funny words' article... but it really does not have anything to do with the phrase 'cellar door'! I don't believe that anyone searching for information about 'cellar door' will be interested in Monty Phyton... --Missmarple 20:26, 5 December 2005 (UTC)
- Personally, I think that "cellar door", while it may be cute and perhaps should be kept as a redirect, is a pretty bad title for this article. I personally spent a while looking for the subject matter before getting to it here only because it was linked from the inherently funny word article and I clicked on cellar door out of curiosity. Gzuckier 21:25, 5 December 2005 (UTC)
Wow. Wikipedia is pretty great. I'm very impressed that this article even exists. --Hermitage 08:11, 6 December 2005 (UTC)
Great article, well done all concerned! --Lox (t,c) 21:49, 13 January 2006 (UTC)
Being the initiator and as of now probably the main single contributor, I thank you; be it irony or not. ;-) — Pladask 13:37, 14 January 2006 (UTC)
Hello! I've used this name on the net for a few years now =) Celardore 18:19, 5 June 2006 (UTC)
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[edit] Donnie Darko
What about the 'cellar door'-reference in Donnie Darko?
The refrence of Cellar Door in the movie Donnie Darko was used by Donnie's english teacher. The two words were written on the board and he asked what it meant. She replied, "A famous linguist once said that of all the phrases in the English language, of all the endless combinations of words in all of history, that cellar door is the most beautiful" (This linguist was really J.R.R. Tolkien). Later on in the movie, this phrase coincidently became a clue to unlocking Donnie's destiny. 205.251.98.23 21:58, 16 February 2007 (UTC)Tyler Walsh, NL Also,(forgot to meantion this before) if you'd watched the extended version of this scene, Cellar Door in Ms. Pomeroy's eyes was the most beautiful thing in the world you build you life around. This thing could be anything, including a person, place, anything really.GLiTch 19:42, 17 February 2007 (UTC)Tyler Walsh, NL
[edit] Prior references
Surprise... there are indeed prior notices of the phrase 'cellar door' being an especially beautiful or musical phrase. One of them turns out to be Mencken:
Poetry is two distinct things, and may be either or both. One is a series of words that are intrinsically musical, in clang-tint and rhythm, as the words cellar-door and sarcoma are musical. The other is a series of ideas, false in themselves, that offer a means of emotional and imaginative escape from the harsh realities of everyday.
Prejudices: third series - Page 151 (The Poet and His Art, the very first paragraph) by H. L. (Henry Louis) Mencken - 1922
Some other authors have also noticed this, but they might be following Mencken, who seems to have the earliest reference. (The Mencken reference and these are all found via 'Google in Book')
Poets of America - Page 311 by Clement Wood, Edmund Clarence Stedman - 1925 - 392 pages An Italian once picked "cellar door" as the most beautiful combination of words in English. It is only needful to recall the music wedded to meaning of ... Snippet view - About this book
The World, the Arts and the Artist - Page 49 by Irwin Edman - 1928 "Cellar door," remarked a foreigner who had no knowledge of the meaning of English words, "is the most beautiful word I have heard in the English language. ... Snippet view - About this book
Potable Gold: some notes on poetry and this age - Page 33 by Babette Deutsch - 1929 - 96 pages Dissociated from its significance, "cellar door" forms three cool clear liquid syllables such as might ... Snippet view - About this book
—The preceding unsigned comment was added by 64.31.91.76 (talk) 20:36, 24 January 2007 (UTC).
[edit] Excessive Cultural References
I think that the Stephen King reference of the cover photo of a cellar door is not related in any way to the phonetic beauty of the words. If we let that in, then every cellar door anywhere should be added (please no!) TheCharlie 16:40, 16 February 2007 (UTC)
[edit] Other
"Cellar Door is the name of a stunning new Jazz and Cabaret Venue under London's Strand next to the Lyceum Theatre. The venue is truly unique and has proven hugely popular as one of the most intimate bars in the Capital.(www.cellardoor.biz)"
This sounds more like an advertisement than actual information.
^ In response to the above, I made a suggested alteration. Feel free to revert. Burnley219 15:14, 7 April 2007 (UTC)
Just wondering, where would I add in the fact that "C'est l'adore"(French - "It is love") sounds the same as cellar door? --Jazqas (talk) 13:33, 29 December 2007 (UTC)
Surely you're right! Phonetics, all well and good, but there is the unescapable irony between the English and French languages to consider, that C'est l'adore/cellar door has such a beautiful meaning to a French speaker and an equally prozaic meaning to an English speaker. Also reminds me of the hilarious 'four candles/fork handles' sketch by The Two Ronnies.
[edit] Point of articulation
Hi, does anyone know about research on how the point of articulation influences the feeling of sounds? Cellar door is only made of alveolar consonants; my favourite example of alveolar consonants is New Zealand Story which contains all the alveolar phonemes in the English language. --Kjoonlee 16:46, 31 May 2007 (UTC)
[edit] References
Surely all those references need to be linked to this use of "cellar door". Otherwise it is original research. —Preceding unsigned comment added by Beardo (talk • contribs) 14:49, 8 September 2007 (UTC)
[edit] WikiProject class rating
This article was automatically assessed because at least one WikiProject had rated the article as start, and the rating on other projects was brought up to start class. BetacommandBot 03:50, 10 November 2007 (UTC)
[edit] Misattributions piece
It doesn't make sense for it to start with 'Nonetheless' or does it? —Preceding unsigned comment added by 203.109.206.227 (talk) 05:00, 20 November 2007 (UTC)
- hm, yes, this is a leftover from unclean refactoring, I think dating to a time when the article wasn't sure whether to credit Tolkien. Please fix it. dab (𒁳) 19:10, 1 December 2007 (UTC)
[edit] Received pronounciation is here out of context
The RP is out of context here because RP is non-rhotic, meaning that the sound "r" is not pronounced. But of course, the reason why Tolkien found the phrase "cellar door" beautiful is because it contains three liquid consonants, including the two rhotic sounds. So the pronounciation for this particular phrase should include both "r". —Preceding unsigned comment added by 132.216.28.167 (talk) 01:09, 20 January 2008 (UTC)
- Well, at most one rhotic sound, if it suggested him the name Selador... Goochelaar (talk) 23:40, 28 January 2008 (UTC)
the question is not if the r is present phonemically, but how it is pronounced (in Tolkien's mind) phonetically. There is no way you can get RP [ˈsɛləˌdɔ:] without the phonemic presence of rhotic consonants: [ɔ:] is unambiguously /or/. I suppose this is a rather deep question. To the non-British ear, [ɔ:] is just a long o. To the British (RP) ear, I imagine (if you indulge me, I am not proposing to insert this point into the article like that), the beauty of [ɔ:] may precisely lie in the secret, discreet presence of the liquid consonant. dab (𒁳) 11:39, 2 February 2008 (UTC)
