Talk:Celebrity and notable guest appearances in Doctor Who

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Contents

[edit] Bad feeling

I have a bad feeling about this article. --Tim Pope 21:25, 11 July 2005 (UTC)

Yes. I smell a VfD on the offing, too. --khaosworks 22:47, July 11, 2005 (UTC)
Just keep editing out the fluff and checking the links. GraemeLeggett 10:42, 13 July 2005 (UTC)
Or to keep it simple, turn it on its head and list episode first then actors of note. GraemeLeggett 11:14, 13 July 2005 (UTC)


Seems a bit odd to list people who made their first TV appearance in Doctor Who and then became famous later as "celebrity appererances" (Martin Clunes) Morwen - Talk 12:28, 13 July 2005 (UTC)

Indeed. This definitely needs some cleanup - not least, an introductory paragraph, and ideally something more than just a list. Were these "celebrity appearances" or just well-known actors who happened to get a part? Just how famous or well-known were they at the time of their appearance? There's a huge difference between Martin Clunes, Simon Callow and Andrew Marr, for example. OpenToppedBus - My Talk 15:33, July 14, 2005 (UTC)
Very true, we need to eliminate from this list those actors "doing a job" which includes Madoc, and probably every entry before Tom Bakers days, and retain just the true celeb appearances like Cleese, and the noteworthy actors showing up. GraemeLeggett 11:12, 16 July 2005 (UTC)

I agree that there is a poor categorisation here, and the data that was there was very incomplete - Beryl Reid, Bernard Bresslaw, Nerys Hughes are definite celebrities who were missing. I've taken the liberty of adding a stack more people - either clear celebrities or those who were "Actors in Doctor Who Before They Were Famous". Perhaps the aggregate data could be then split between the categories? I think that with regard to Philip Madoc, Julian Glover, Nigel Stock, Martin Jarvis, Maurice Denham, Mary Morris, Richard Todd, James Fox, Derek Jacobi etc a case could be made for a third category - but I'm unsure what to suggets for a title - "Well known actors who have appeared in Doctor Who". Litefoot 12.35, 24 July 2005

[edit] Could it work?

I don't see how this page could ever work. What's the definition of "celebrity"? Is is a famous actor, or is it someone famous for doing something else, or what? If you count just actors who were internationally famous before they appeared on the show, I think the list could be whittled down to maybe half a dozen names (Cleese, Bron, Blessed, and the Beatles (if you want to be generous)). A cult figure like Ken Dodd, while beloved by fans, can hardly be considered a celebrity, as he's barely known outside the UK. I strongly suggest this list be severely pruned down.Konczewski 13:23, 17 July 2006 (UTC)

And just to beat a dead horse, maybe we should use the Wikipedia definition of celebrity to decide who goes here.Konczewski 13:49, 17 July 2006 (UTC)
You're not necessarily wrong, but I'd maintain that there's a difference between "international celebrity" and "celebrity". The Wikipedia page celebrity says it's "a person who is widely recognized (famous) in a society and commands a high degree of public and media attention." An argument could be made for nearly all the people listed here that they're widely recognized in British society, even if they're not widely known outside the UK. —Josiah Rowe (talk • contribs) 18:56, 17 July 2006 (UTC)
I agree with you about national vs international celebs, but since Wikipedia is itself an international resource, it would make sense to err on the global side. Also, I'm still personally thinking that a celeb is someone that talked about in the entertainment press (like a Julia Roberts or a David Beckham), rather than someone who has appeared in TV and/or film. By the later definition, every single person who's appeared on Doctor Who is a celeb.
Perhaps the only definition that would keep this list managable would be listing those who are primarily celebs outside the acting field. This would probably just leave the Beatles, though.Konczewski 13:15, 18 July 2006 (UTC)
I agree. As it stands, except for the Beatles, it is a list of actors who made casual appearances in Doctor Who and who had an actual acting career. You could do the same with any show, and list all the actors who have something else on their resume besides that show. Big deal. So what. If you want that information, go to imdb. This is just a random list and ought to be deleted. --Bolognaking 22:05, 12 October 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Splitting

My idea split list into

  • Those who were well-known/respected actors when they appeared on Doctor Who - that period roughly starts around the 4th Doctor (and reached barrel-scraping proportions in Bad Wolf -IMHO)
  • Those who became well known after appearing on Doctor who - a much smaller list.
  • Those who appeared several times through out the shows history - possibly without ever becoming well-known.
GraemeLeggett 15:50, 24 July 2005 (UTC)

Re your suggested splits - am in total agreement on second one; but surely the first one is too broad - celebrities (Ken Dodd, John Cleese, Trinny and Susannah) are a different breed from established actors. I'd also be careful about saying that the fame bit only started with Tom Baker - Ingrid Pitt, Bernard Bresslaw and Marius Goring are strong early examples of actors with fame appearing in the programme. Re. the regular actors - surely they just fall into the "Doctor Who Actors" category and shouldn't be seen as celebrities/famous actors? Litefoot 21.18, 24 July 2005

Unforntately it is a bit of a judgement issue. I agree that there are some well knowns pre D4, just not so many as D4 and later.

Ok, so let's avoid being too prescriptive. What about NOT breaking up the page into other pages but rather re-ordering it into the smaller categories. A case could be made for "Doctor Who Actors Who featured in Soap Operas" too - avoiding the actor/celebrity confusion. Who would need to agree to such a big structural change before it can go ahead? Bit new to this game, so unsure what happens next.Litefoot 14.30, 25 July 2005

Definitely stick as a single page! Just fiddle around with the text until you like what you see. GraemeLeggett 14:25, 25 July 2005 (UTC)
Don't know if anyone needs to agree to it, but as the guy who had the idea for this page originally, I have no problem with it. Essexmutant 14:32, 26 July 2005 (UTC)

[edit] Malcolm Hebden

I notice Malcolm Hebden (Norris Cole in Coronation Street) has been added to the list, although I cannot find a record of his appearance on IMDB. I have not personally seen The Seeds of Doom to verify if he's in it or not. Can anyone clarify? Thanks.

The BBC website does not list him on the cast list (see The Seeds of Doom, external link). --khaosworks 12:16, July 26, 2005 (UTC)

[edit] The charity specials?

I haven't just gone in and added 'em, in case the Project has Rules I'm Unaware Of about what to include, but it would seem to me that the celeb Doctors in Curse of Fatal Death deserve a place in the "Other Productions/As the Doctor" section. Hugh Grant in particular is Really Very Famous Indeed. The Eastenders cast in Dimensions in Time I'm not nearly so sure about, but perhapss they ought to be there too.

I presume they're all entitled to be there. Rowan Atkinson and the rest of the Doctors all seem suitable to me - the same applies for Julia Sawalha and Jonathan Pryce. A list of the Eastenders actors who were in Dimensions In Time can be found at http://www.imdb.com/title/tt0261655/fullcredits - I'm sure Ross Kemp, Mike Reid and Steve McFadden are all suitable, perhaps the rest as well.
It's all right as long as it's distinguished from the others with a subheader "Charity specials" under "Other Productions". --khaosworks (talk• contribs) 22:21, August 9, 2005 (UTC)
I've added them all, splitting out those that played the Doctor and the Eastenders cast. --Essexmutant 11:07, 10 August 2005 (UTC)

[edit] Voices & links

As this is a list of appearances, should we specify where guest actors have provided voices only (Anne Robinson, Zoe Wanamaker, Davina McCall, etc.)?

Also, the rule about only linking a name once seems to have been over-stringently applied so, for example, Jean Marsh isn't linked to her article for her Battlefield appearance, but her previous appearance is not only not on the screen but right at the top of the list. Would it be better for this article to link names throughout regardless of the number of appearances? --Whouk (talk) 23:37, 10 December 2005 (UTC)

[edit] Duplicate linking; is it bad within lists?

Just had my added links reverted, and realised why; they'd (probably, haven't check) been linked previously. My mistake, and I should have thought of this beforehand.

However, whilst this adheres to the general Wikipedia rules (which are good for avoiding excessive linkification), is it really beneficial here? Since this is a list, people will not necessarily be reading it from the start, and will have to check to see if there is a link earlier on. (Even if there is, they still have to search for it). Fourohfour 15:10, 30 December 2005 (UTC)

I agree - see my comment just above. --Whouk (talk) 14:18, 1 January 2006 (UTC)
Yeah — I think I'll link anything that isn't linked in the same section, for the aid of readers. —Josiah Rowe (talk • contribs) 18:45, 12 April 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Italics

The article might look aesthetically pleasing - but shouldn't we be italicising all of those TV/film titles, for consistency's sake? Martpol 18:32, 12 April 2006 (UTC)

Yes, we should. I'll bite the bullet and do it, and while I'm at it I'll add links, as suggested above. —Josiah Rowe (talk • contribs) 18:42, 12 April 2006 (UTC)
Done. —Josiah Rowe (talk • contribs) 20:36, 12 April 2006 (UTC)

[edit] List order

Which is more useful: an out-and-out alphabetical list, a list arranged chronologically by Doctor Who appearance, or the current hybrid? —Josiah Rowe (talk • contribs) 18:54, 12 April 2006 (UTC)

I'd say alphabetical by appearance, as then we could stick to one entry per person. —Whouk (talk) 19:40, 12 April 2006 (UTC)
By "alphabetical by appearance", I take it you mean one alphabetical list for the television series, another for Big Finish and so forth? —Josiah Rowe (talk • contribs) 20:37, 12 April 2006 (UTC)
I should just have said "alphetical". By appearance I meant "a celebrity appearance" and ended up being very ambiguous, sorry. Alphabetical by name, full stop. Although now that you've raised it, having a separate section for Big Finish etc. might be an idea, as it's less notable than being in the TV series (IMHO). —Whouk (talk) 22:00, 12 April 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Celebrity?

Having come here via an article about an episode, I think that some actors are in this list despite not being a "celebrity" (in the sense that it's taken on now). There are a few people in this list who were actors anyway, and their role in the episode was just another job for them. I propose keeping only those who were cast for their celebrity status (eg Derek Jacobi or Hale and Pace), and those who had a starring role in something else later (eg June Brown). This looks like I'm repeating what's been said before but still, it needs emphasising. Actors are not automatically celebrities. Totnesmartin 22:21, 30 June 2007 (UTC)


Absolutely agreed. It also occurs to me that, as the list is now, there's no clear reason not to include (at the very least) Davison (All Creatures Great and Small), Ecclestone (The Second Coming) and Tennant (Casanova). And probably many companions as well. This strikes me as somewhat silly. Daibhid C 21:46, 24 July 2007 (UTC)
Eccleston's got a ton of shit. Hartnell and Troughton were reasonably well known before taking the part, too, weren't they? But it obviously doesn't make sense to list actors playing the Doctor. The list is obviously currently too long - it lists pretty much everybody who's guest starred in any Doctor Who episode and also been in anything else. It strikes me that we might want to have a separate list of "actors guest starring in Doctor Who," or something similar, and to restrict this list to very obvious celebrity cameo type things. It does, however, get very difficult to make a distinction - how do we determine which people were case for their celebrity status? And why are people who had a starring role in something else, later, countable, but not people who had a starring role in something else, before? Also, are we referring to a starring role in a television show, only, or what? Sophia Myles starred in Tristan and Isolde, which came out around the same time as the Who episode she was in. Anna Maxwell Martin was the lead in the large ensemble of Bleak House. Do either of those count? What about Anthony Stewart Head? Is he a celebrity for his work on Buffy, or just another actor doing a day's work? How do we distinguish? john k 00:08, 25 July 2007 (UTC)
I think the Radio Times listings traditionally showed in the cast listings who was actually considered a "guest star" at the time - see Doctor Who Cuttings Archive (The listings may also shed light on some of the other great debates like companions.) But this format may not have been consistent in later yeats. Timrollpickering 00:18, 25 July 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Moving this page...

Considering that the term celebrity is so contested and the labelling of people as such is quite subjective, how about we move this page to a new title Celebrity and notable guest appearances in Doctor Who? That way, those less famous, but nevertheless widely recognisable for work outside of Doctor Who, who do not conform to the more modern and widely recognised idea of a person living a celebrity lifestyle may gain legitimacy for their listings on this page. An example of a notable guest would perhaps be an actor who has been a frequently or significantly recurring or regular character on one or more other television programmes. Alongside the actor's name, as is currently the pattern for entries, the justification for their listing is provided by a brief summary of their major works. From these summaries, readers can then determine the actor's level of fame for themselves and based on this they can determine whether they regard them as a celebrity or just a notable guest. The word notable should hopefully limit entries so not to turn the page into virtually a list of every actor ever to appear in Doctor Who and its various spin-offs. Again, notability is subjective but logic should hopefully stop someone listing, for example, an actor who has only done one episode of The Bill outside of their Doctor Who appearance. Wolf of Fenric 01:52, 3 August 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Fame

The Fame column seems to a significant portion of the CV of some guests - surely this is best left to the article for those people (in particular, the actors)? For instance, see the Richard Briers entry for Torchwood, which lists almost every well-known role he's had - but this information should have no place in this article. Is this column needed at all? If they are truly notable guest appearances, the actor or personality should have their own article which should speak for itself. At most a single entry explaining their position with a single example should be enough (e.g. "News 24 presenter" or "Actor (e.g. The Good Life) Perhaps time for a prune? Stephenb (Talk) 16:58, 23 January 2008 (UTC)

[edit] Cutting this article down

The AfD came down as "no consensus" but acknowledged that the article ought to be cut down, as suggested by many of the respondents. My first edit towards this will be to remove anyone who has no article of their own, which suggests that they have no immediate notability, unless there is a specific reason not to. My second suggestion would be to remove anyone only notable for a single other role, but that is, I think, more contentious, so I won't do that immediately. Stephenb (Talk) —Preceding comment was added at 12:44, 3 March 2008 (UTC)

Thinking about it: "Celebrity appearances" would include anyone who is not an actor and who would not normally appear in a TV drama - i.e. any TV presenter, politician or pop group appearing in the show(s) are potentially valid celebs to list. That leaves "notable guest appearances", and unfortunately Doctor Who has never had a "guest starring" credit. So, to my mind this should mean either actors who were in roles that notably (and citably!) generated publicity, have played a well-known character for which they are principally known for, or have a significant body of work that includes leading roles. Test case: Michael Obiora would not make the cut, as his role did not generate publicity, he is not well-known for a single character (his role in Hotel Babylon is not iconic enough for him to be principally know for it) and he does not have a significant body of work with leading roles. So, I would remove him, but not (say) Richard Wilson. Anyone else have an opinion, before I start hacking down the list? Stephenb (Talk) 13:56, 3 March 2008 (UTC)
Obviously this has gone back and forth (and nobody's responded to this in ages). Apart from publicity, I think it's worth considering the general fame of the person in question, nationally and internationally. There's cases, especially in the recent season and in the anniversary shows, where actors are chosen largely on a fame basis. Others may not have but the performer is notable enough to be worth including, as with Michael Gough. But there's some that strike me as questionable, where even in England the fame is relative. There's a lot of hard-working character actors here, and not to detract from them, but there's no clear rational why some are included and others aren't. Ronald Pickup, for example, was arguably never a real celebrity even in Britain, but he's included while Michael Bilton, known to UK viwers, (and like Who through PBS showings of Britcoms, to many Yanks as well) for his regular or recurring key roles on the sitcoms To the Manor Born, Grace and Favor, and others aren't. Obviously this is a very subjective matter in general (Nigel Plaskitt, say, would count as a celebrity mainly to fans of his puppeteering work or his cough commercials, but that's a fairly small group) but a start at a basic criteria would help. In general, I think any entries which just say "notable actor" or something be examined, either at least one of their highest profile assignments or *type* of work they did (with Michael Gough, who was in the Batman movies *and* Hammer horrors, amongst others, and Martin Jarvis and the like) or taken out. That's just my drive-by thoughts. -- Aleal (talk) 23:31, 3 May 2008 (UTC)
I was going to start a subject on the notability of this article or indeed even the point. So Doctor Who has guest stars, so what? It uses actors who have gone on to other things or have been in bigger productions before, so what?Alastairward (talk) 12:09, 22 May 2008 (UTC)

[edit] Professor Hobbs/Hobbes

There are instances of both spellings in various dr who articles, i only noticed because the Hobbes spelling was used in a tv guide and i looked up the actor (David Troughton) and it shows the Hobbs spelling there. Is there any canon to cite (script for the episode) or was the name never written down ?

PS i dont like/care about dr who so i wont be fixing this but i thought someone might want to. I'm not usually given to such impish behaviour, being a dragon myself.Machete97 (talk) 21:50, 8 June 2008 (UTC)