Talk:Caving

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[edit] Caving Food(s)

Whoever suggested that cavers eat vegetable soup is dead wrong. I have never seen cavers eat anything other than New England Clam Chowder.

Clam Chowder?!? I have only seen cavers eat mars bars in cave.

[edit] Spelunking

Isn't "spelunking" a american English word? - User:Olivier

It is, but I thinkthat is now fairly clear.

Cavers in America *NEVER* call themselves "spelunker". A spelunker is a flashlight wielding cave vandal that gets in an accident and has to be rescued by cavers. A spelunker is an idiot. If you call an American Caver a spelunker it's an insult and flaunts your ignorance. Maybe this should be clarified in the article.Senor Cuete (talk) 19:18, 11 May 2008 (UTC)Senor Cuete

[edit] international

Very "American" oriented, what about internationally? And links to well known caves worldwide? FT2 17:40, Oct 30, 2004 (UTC)

[edit] re: international

Yes, I've just made a few changes to reduce the US bias, but there is clearly room for a lot more info on European (and other) caving nations, cave conditions, techniques and nomenclature. (Wookey, 2005-03-04)

[edit] cave explorers

Probably opening a can of worms, but I added some notable cave explorers. ? Perhaps it would be better to only include those who are dead --?-- though that's a little morbid. (19 May 2005)

Perhaps we could include the 'Cave Wars' of Kentucky in the 1920's? Or at least I think it was the 1920's...where people owned the stretch of caves in the Flint Ridge-Mammoth area, and violently competed for tourists...this was before they discovered that these caves were all one giiiinormous system. A famous caver called Floyd Collins was around this time, and he died in a tiny dangerous cave called Sand Cave.

Or perhaps we can improve the article Sarawak Chamber and put a reference here; being the largest cave chamber in the world, I think it's a little neglected. Lady BlahDeBlah 20:33, 3 February 2006 (UTC)

Agree on the dead thing! Otherwise the list will always be incomplete, and endless. I could easily add a half-dozen names. I'd stick to 'historical' cavers, simply because that is manageable and 'live' cavers is not. Or perhaps ONLY include internal links to cavers who have their own wiki page?? The current list includes some who are unknown outside their own country.Ian mckenzie
My preference, for all articles, is for lists of names to be restricted to those notable enough to have an article on Wikipedia. Otherwise it tells the reader nothing, no more informative than "blah blah", really, unless it can be followed up on. For those who you believe notable enough but who do not already have an article, go ahead and create a stub w/ enough information that it doesn't get deleted for being non-notable. (Notability should be the standard, not dead or alive.) --Kbh3rdtalk 18:57, 11 February 2006 (UTC)
Agree; that's what I meant. And it should be their *own* wiki page, not just being on another list somewhere else.Ian mckenzie


I deleted the list of notable cave exporers from the Caving page. To replace it I created a category Category:Cavers and added all cavers in this list who had an article to the category. For any other notable caver who deserves mention on wikipedia, create a stub and add it to Category:Cavers, as suggested above. For reference I archived the list from the Caving page here. —Kymacpherson 17:29, 4 September 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Wikification and style cleanup needed

There are some sections in the article that still need wikification (mostly more links). Also see WP:NOT — such a "guide" style as used in the last sections is unfortunately not encyclopedic. If anyone has time, they could take a look and rub the article a bit... — Pt (T) 21:10, 30 July 2005 (UTC)

[edit] Redlinks to knot names

I suspect a Figure-eight loop is the same as a Figure-of-eight loop? (Same for Figure-nine loop and Figure-of-nine loop.) Someone who knows for sure please correct this (or me). TowerDragon 17:36, 11 November 2005 (UTC)

I found that both Figure-of-eight loop and Figure-of-nine loop link back to Caving, so I did change the links. TowerDragon 18:11, 11 November 2005 (UTC)

[edit] Caving organizations

The US section seems to be inordinately large, compared to the others. Could not the regional associations be deleted, or included in the NSS entry? I don't see other countries including their regional associations.Ian mckenzie 03:22, 24 February 2006 (UTC)

Elimination of links that go to the same site may be beneficial. Example: National Speleological Society (USA) Caving Forum http://forums.caves.org/, Cave Chat http://www.cavechat.org/

[edit] US Cavers Forum

For the second time I have removed this listing from "Caving organizations:United States" :

"U.S. CAVERS FORUM (USA) Features multiple cave discussion boards pertaining to cave exploration, Cave Conservation & Management, the Speleological related Sciences, caving events across the U.S., cave gear, cave trips, cave photography, cave news, and more! Cavers talking to cavers!" for the following reasons: (1) the appropriate place to list a chat forum is under "external links" (2) this article should be encyclopedic, so the promotional text is not appropriate. Kymacpherson 19:15, 28 April 2006 (UTC)


  • Note: Originally the listing was placed in External Links.
  • All other "chat forums" should also follow the above guideline.

[edit] Movies about caving

Does the move The Cavern have anything to do with caving? I think not? Should it be removed form this page? Sonofmendip 21:37, 18 October 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Photo changes

I've changed the photos at the start of caving because I didn't think they really illustrated anything about the process of caving. The three I've added show the equipment used and the gritty side of it, lest anyone think that it is a glamorous sport...

I don't think the photo from Stevens Gap illustrates much about caving per se, but it's a nice shot so I didn't mess with it.

--Dave Bunnell 18:44, 8 November 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Not a sport

There is nothing competitive about spelunking/caving/whatever you want to call it, so I don't see how one could classify it as a sport. It is no more a sport than hiking through the woods or taking a walk in the park.

I would strongly disagree. There is a strong athletic portion to caving, and combined with the team aspects of most caving would qualify caving as a sport.
I realize that there is a "strong athletic portion" to caving (quotes used to give you credit, not to be a sarcastic punk =)). But I still think the lack of a competitive component disqualifies caving to be considered a true sport.
Not all sports are competitive. I have not heard of any formal competitions for mountain climbing for example.
--Romanticcynic 21:35, 27 December 2006 (UTC)
There are formal competitions for both mountain climbing and wall climbing. A google reveals many clubs/leagues that hold competitions for both teams of climbers and individuals.

Well there are competitions for caving skills at many caving conventions too, but I hardly think that contributes to it being a sport or not. There's also considerable competition between cavers in some (crowded) countries. BTW, most people do consider hiking and backpacking as sporting endeavours, despite the lack of 'competition'. Ian mckenzie 18:34, 1 January 2007 (UTC)

Good. Let it stay divorced from sports. The last thing caves need are troupes of extreme sports fanatics traipsing around like the imbeciles they are. Cupbearer 08:17, 2 February 2007 (UTC)

[edit] gloves

In my experience gloves are needed not because of temperature, but to protect the hands; a cave formed by solution can have rocks with knife-sharp edges. They are also useful for inproving grip on rope. —Kymacpherson 01:46, 25 May 2007 (UTC)

Hello. I don't think anyone doubts the usefulness of gloves, but I am not sure about the universality of glove use. To say that they are "almost always" worn is possibly not correct. It is, of course, a can of worms. Those who do not wear them, do so adamantly, those who wear them, likewise. It will be difficult to get a consensus. --5telios 09:07, 25 May 2007 (UTC)
In some areas the limestone (etc.) is characteristically sharp, but not in others. In regions where caves are used regularly the limestone is often worn smooth anyway. They are very rarely worn in the UK for example. Though, out of interest, which gloves improve grip on rope? 134.83.1.234 16:27, 25 May 2007 (UTC)
I like cheap work gloves from the hardware store. They are usually cloth with leather padding on the fingers and palm. They work well in wet or dry conditions. One time I tried rubber coated gloves; I thought they would work well in a wet cave but in fact they were a poor choice! When I was rappelling I could smell the rubber burning :-) Thanks for contributing to the article, have you considered creating a wikipedia account? —Kymacpherson 13:47, 26 May 2007 (UTC)

[edit] British Spellings

A few recent modifications to this article were made from an IP address. These changes included some decidedly British spellings. I don't have time to research the Wikipedia policies on this as I am currently packing for a caving trip. But, my feelings are that this is not an article about British caving and should be more neutral. Am I wrong in my feelings? I attempted to make the point on one of the words but it was changed back with the argument that that was the original spelling from the article. The original argument doesn't hold much weight with me as there is very little of the original text that has not been modified in some way and for good reason. Should these British spellings appear here; specifically karabiner, or carabiner and faeces or feces? —Preceding unsigned comment added by WTucker (talk • contribs) 17:55, 25 May 2007

WP:ENGVAR makes some recommendations on the topic. It seems to suggest that whatever variant of english is chosen should be used consistently throughout the article. It also recommends sticking with the usage established by the page's original contributor. —Kymacpherson 13:47, 26 May 2007 (UTC)
American spelling is not "more general" than British spelling, but equally specific. Wikipedia convention is to use the original spelling 87.127.69.85 18:25, 29 May 2007 (UTC).

[edit] Photograph in Safety Section

Dave, that picture of Marion O. is TERRIBLE. The way you've tipped your camera so that the trees are leaning to the left is disorienting. You should either re-crop it so the horizon is horizontal or use something else.Senor Cuete (talk) 01:16, 29 March 2008 (UTC)Senor Cuete

[edit] Categories

I have removed the Extreme Sport category, as most cavers do not consider their sport Extreme. It is only some noncavers who think it might be. Ian mckenzie (talk) 15:30, 7 April 2008 (UTC)

All right, thanks! I initially added it only because the sport is mentioned in Extreme sport. If you don't think it's properly considered one, perhaps you'd also like to mention it in the other article? -Clueless (talk) 15:35, 7 April 2008 (UTC)

Shall do. Ian mckenzie (talk) 16:02, 7 April 2008 (UTC)