Talk:Caucasian

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"Caucasian" has several distinct meanings in different contexts, and none seems universaly more important than others. In particular, the linguistic sense and the strict geographic sense(s) seem to be the most important ones among *I vote to make "Caucasian race" the main article here with a link at the top to the disambiguation. There are really only two things we need to disambiguate here, "Caucasian race" and "Caucasian languages". "Caucasian race" is really what people are looking for when they search for "Caucasian." ☞spencer195 05:24, 9 May 2004 (UTC)

I dispute that assertion. To many people, Caucasian languages and Caucasian peoples are much more important subjects than Caucasian race. The latter was considered a scientific concept in the pre-DNA era, but became meaningless in the light of modern genetics. Now we know that even people of supposedly "pure races" are more genetically mixed than even the most radical skeptics would have guessed; and that each gene (e.g. for eye color) diffuses and get selected quite independently of other genes. So it seems odd to put an obsolete concept, whose interest is only historical, as the main article of an encyclopedia; and leave those concepts that do have scientific (and political) relevance hidden behind a disambig.

Moreover, even people who come here looking for "Caucasian race" will probably benefit from knowing that there are at least three distinct senses of "Caucasian", not to mention the linguistic and geographical ones. Note that "Caucasian type" in government forms is very different from "Caucasian race" in racial politics, from the "Caucasian race" of various Caucasus nationalist movements, and from the "Caucasian race" of 19th century anthopologists.
Jorge Stolfi 18:49, 12 May 2004 (UTC)

Contents 1 Regarding "common usage, especially in North America" 2 Circular link 3 Caucasian(Russian use) 4 Usage in Australia 5 Race is a myth

[edit] Regarding "common usage, especially in North America"

I would like to take issue with the statement that "in common usage and political political contexts, especially North America, Caucasian usually means a white person of northern, eastern and western European descent, excluding people with southern European descent (which are often called "Latins"), or with Asian, African, or Mediterranean origin." This statement is simply incorrect and does not reflect common usage in the United States.

I am Italian-born, therefore a southern European, who has lived in the United States for over thirty years, and I know this country very well. I assure you that southern Europeans are not referred to as "Latins" in this country, for the simple reason that this term is used to refer specifically to Latin-Americans (or Hispanics). It may be that in Northern Europe the term "Latin" is frequently applied to Italians and other southern Europeans, but not in the United States.

Personally, I have no axe to grind. I would have no problem with being labeled a "Latin" as I feel totally comfortable with the "Latin" (i.e. Latin-American) culture, and speak both Spanish and Portuguese fluently. As a matter of fact, in the United States, I can "pass" for "Latin" culturally, but I know full well that what I am doing is "passing" (an important term in North-American anthropology, meaning "to appear to belong to another racial/cultural/ethnic group than one's own").

Furthermore, having been an anthropology maven since the tender age of fourteen, I have always known that "Caucasian" is not synonymous with either "white" or "European" in traditional physical anthropology, and that, for example, Ethiopians or South Indians are as Caucasian as the Swedes and Finns, even if their skin tone is jet-black. (While the classifications of traditional physical anthropology have been rendered nearly meaningless by more recent genetic studies, as Jorge Stolfi correctly points out, they still maintain a certain degree of broad usefulness.)

For better or for worse, Americans have traditionally been obsessed with separating whites from blacks (remember the "one-drop rule" or the "paperbag test" and other such racist yardsticks), but not so much with creating too many distinctive categories. Only in recent decades, such terms as "Asian/Pacific Islander" (a broad category including East Asians, South-East Asians, plus all the native people of Oceania) or "Hispanic" (a cultural category, spanning any combination of Native American, European, and African genetic descent) have become common. But the increasing numbers of people of North-African, Southwest Asian, and South Asian descent continue to defy easy classification. And as for the term "Mediterranean," you hear Americans apply it to a cuisine, a diet, a lifestyle, but never in opposition to "Caucasian."

In conclusion, without getting lost in too many details, I would like to propose amending the above passage as follows:

in common usage and political contexts, especially in North America, Caucasian usually means a white person of European descent, excluding people with Asian, African, or Middle-Eastern origin.

(NOTE: An analogous correction should be made in the article "Caucasian race".}

Pasquale 22:09, 2 Jul 2004 (UTC)

Following a couple of recent contributions, the wording of the paragraph referred to above has changed, although not necessarily for the better. A rather wordy paragraph now claims that "in common usage and political contexts, Caucasian refers to light-complexioned people indigenous to, or descended from Europe, northern Africa, southwest Asia, and the Indian subcontinent. In North America, Caucasian usually means a white person of northern, eastern and western European descent, excluding people with significant Asian, African, or American Indian ancestry." This paragraph brings together the meaning from traditional physical anthropology (in the first half) with the common meaning of "white" (in the second half). However, in the second half, southern Europeans are again left out, although the last sentence does not specifically excludes them. With all due respect, I would say this rewording actually adds to the confusion.

Also, the word "censitary" used in the third bullet (and linked to "Census") is not an English word.

And, finally, the reference to "a Latin designation such as "Varietes Caucasia," (sic)" in the second bullet is truly puzzling. I looked back at the history and suspect this term was first introduced by Levzur, who, however, correctly spelled the first word as "Varietas" (a later editor must have accidentally changed that to "Varietes" which is not Latin). The second word should be "Caucasica" (this is the correct Latin adjective, as in the bacterial species "Borrelia caucasica"), however "Caucasia" is conceivable (the Latin Wikipedia, for example, includes a reference to "Linguae Ibero-Caucasiae" with no further information), although it would indeed warrant the use of "(sic)" after it. This is all rather puzzling and hardly neutral encyclopedia information.

P.S. I did some additional research. Although the more correct Latin adjective would have been "Caucasica" (widely attested since antiquity), J. F. Blumenbach apparently used the term "Varietas Caucasia" (or "Caucasia Varietas") for his definition of the "Caucasian race."

Pasquale 20:48, 6 Jul 2004 (UTC)

Well, the original Latin adjective appears to be Caucasius (the feminine Caucasia agrees with 'varietas'). Caucasica would be something that appeared after the Roman period. Don't trust everything you read in taxonomic species names: Biologists will say just about anything ;p The adjective ending in -ius/-ia/-ium appears in some other national adjectives, such as Armenius (Armenian), Aegyptius (Egyptian), and Atropatius (Azerbaijani). —Muke Tever (la.wikipedia and la.wiktionary sysop) 23:28, 3 Jun 2005 (UTC)

[edit] Circular link

This page had a circular link (Caucasian type is a redirect back to Caucasian). I have left it unlinked, since it seems to be a term distinct from Caucasian race. — Danc 14:07, 28 Aug 2004 (UTC)

user: title_nation@mail.ge 29 June 2005 CAUCASIAN is an inapropreate term for practices inumerated above.The term derives from a village called Cauc-meaning simply 'snow', 'snow-clad' in Kartuli.Caucasian language group is a fiction,introduced by alien war-mongers in the 19-th century. Prof. Ivane Javakhishvili used to call them SO CALLED Caucasian languages stressing that they are not what they seem. He was poisoned and an unworthy man was placed at the top of the Academy of the Sciences of the Republic of Sakartuelo.That term and the corresponding activity was imposed by the Russian Tsarist and the subsequent Soviet Imperialistic policy.During the last decade there is talk on the disqualification of all the pseudoscientific Soviettime works and their indecent authors.

[edit] Caucasian(Russian use)

"In Russia, the term is used in it's literal sense of 'from the Caucasus', but more specifically for a physique that is most typical of that region, namely small and dark skinned. So this is in the direct opposition to the common colloquial English language meaning of "Caucasian" as the "white race". Typically, the term is used with negative connotations nearly identical to the Anglo-Saxon prejudice of "darkness". Some people from the Caucaus refute these prejudices; others ignore them. See also "Caucasophobia"."

I disagree. The term "кавказец" is used to describe a person who is (or thought to be) or has some kind of ethnic background from the Caucusus region. Small and dark-skinned people from Southeast Asia, for example, would not qualify as "кавказцы". It might be added the usage of "Caucasian" in the US has led to some humorous translation errors in mystery novels and some badly-translated movies. People with a "Caucasian" look about them may be mistaken for "кавказцы", but the term would no longer apply if it was revealed that they were not actually from the Caucusus. At any rate the term itself is not inherently racist(though there is another commonly used one which is); it is used simply to describe people of this ethnicity, who are encountered more often in Russia than in the English-speaking world(where there is no such similar word in widespread usage). The prejudice against Caucasian people in Russia is a different matter. --Pravit 6 July 2005 17:58 (UTC)

-- I removed the picture which had nothing to do with the subject, and could even make people think this article was not following Wikipedia's neutral attitude. -- 5 Sept 2005

[edit] Usage in Australia

In Australia the word Caucasian is used to refer to those people who have Anglo-Saxon background, this happens in the media as well as in official documents. There is an important number of Australians who are of Greek, Italian or other European descent which are not regarded as Caucasians. The Australian government refers to them as the ethnic communities along with other racial minorities.--tequendamia 11:08, 16 September 2005 (UTC)

In my experience, "Caucasian" applies to any white person whether Anglo-Saxon or other white European. The difference is, as you say, Southern Europeans (ie, Greeks, Southern Italians, Spaniards etc), are not always considered white in the purist sense. Hangover from the White Australia days, I suppose. But Nords and Germans (Saxons afterall) would be considered "Caucasian".--Cyberjunkie | Talk 11:50, 16 September 2005 (UTC)

[edit] Race is a myth

With DNA analysis, "race" has been shown to be a total myth. Humans come in all colors of beige, from light shades to dark browns, but we are essentially all the same. We should entitle this article "Caucasian" not "Caucasian race". MathStatWoman 00:59, 24 January 2006 (UTC)

Caucasian and Caucasian race are indeed separate articles. Maybe you got confused because Caucasian Race (caps) was a redirect to Caucasian instead of Caucasian race (uncap). It is fixed now.
As for having an article on Caucasian race, it doesn't matter whether concept of race is scientifically meaningful or not. The concept is terribly important in politics, sociology, history of philosophy, etc., so it deserves an article, just as psychic surgery or Mu (lost continent).
All the best, Jorge Stolfi 04:17, 28 January 2006 (UTC)