Talk:Catholic beliefs on the power of prayer
From Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
Contents |
[edit] Requests for sources
If there is a specific statement that can not be traced to a source, please list it here. As far as I have checked, all sources included all statements mentioned in the article. History2007 (talk) 01:15, 6 December 2007 (UTC)
[edit] New Title
After a few suggestions for a title, this page has assumed the title Catholic beliefs on the power of prayer as of December 9, 2007, among the other plausible and possible permutaions of those words. Given that this has been discussed below, please try to let it be. Thanks History2007 (talk) 04:00, 10 December 2007 (UTC)
[edit] Titles
A number of "redirect to a redirect" edits took place on this page, based on new titles that someone suggested. The reason I selected this page title when I started this page was that it is closest to what a Wikipedia user may search for. Obviously, pages need to be easy to find as users search for them. I have reverted the page to the way it was. The first paragraph on this page clearly defines what it intendes to do and what it is not about. Therefore, please do not redirect this page again. Thanks. History2007 (talk) 01:32, 8 December 2007 (UTC)
- Please see the message on your talk page. This is not the right way to effect a name change. The presence of a redirect means that a user who types in one article name is automatically taken to the article he's looking for; it's no more difficult. —Angr If you've written a quality article... 01:35, 8 December 2007 (UTC)
Actualy I think the search criteria weigh both the title and the contents of a page, so the effect is not technically the same. History2007 (talk) 01:39, 8 December 2007 (UTC)
- That doesn't matter, as long as the redirect takes you to the article you're looking for. At any rate, the article is now at your preferred name. If anyone else wants to rename the article, please follow the procedure at Wikipedia:Requested moves, and do not do cut-and-paste page moves, and do not have the same contents under two different article names. —Angr If you've written a quality article... 02:00, 8 December 2007 (UTC)
I think if there is a suggestion for a new name please discuss it first, else if the page suddenly moves, it will just get moved back and we get a cycle of moves that will begin to approximate perpetual motion. Thanks. History2007 (talk) 02:03, 8 December 2007 (UTC)
[edit] Christian or just Catholic?
I'm a bit confused. I get the impression the contents of the article is limited to Catholic prayer rather than any/all Christian prayer but the article title refers to "Christian prayer". Also I think "Powers" would be more meaningful in the title rather than "Power". Can I suggest rename to "Powers of Catholic Prayer"? Barrylb (talk) 02:23, 9 December 2007 (UTC)
- Actually I see in the page history a previous title Catholic beliefs about prayer. Can we go back to that? Barrylb (talk) 02:27, 9 December 2007 (UTC)
I thought about the Christian/Catholic issue as well Barry. The reference to the protestant reformation in the article was because many of the items in the Bible date to well before the time the Cathoics split off from the other Christians, so the issue is somewhat wider than Catholic. And the references often quote the King's James Bible so it is a wider audience. So I set a redirect from Catholic Prayers to here, so it would be found in a search. The question of Power vs Powers goes back to search again, for a search on power will find powers more easily than powers will find power - as you know. The reason I kept this title rather than the other was really the search issue, for the page is clear about what it sets to do, and the title is really affecting the search more than the content, for the content is the same. Now that you are reading this, on another topic, that section on the efficacy of prayer page about medical issues needs more extensions. I put in the Australian study that you had privided. If you have any more links, your adding them there will be appreciated. Cheers. History2007 (talk) 04:29, 9 December 2007 (UTC) .
- My concern about the current title is that it may not conform to the principle of NPOV; having this title suggests that the encyclopedia's editorial voice itself is claiming that prayer has certain power, which would be unacceptable. The previous title Catholic beliefs about prayer takes no position about the issue, but simply announces "this is what Catholics believe". Using "Christian" rather than "Catholic" in any version of the title encourages editors to add information about Protestant and Orthodox beliefs about prayer to the article. —Angr If you've written a quality article... 08:51, 9 December 2007 (UTC)
[edit] Duty vs Power
Ok how about Catholic Beliefs on the power of prayer. The whole point of the article is to discuss the beliefs about power, without claiming the efficacy of the prayers. Catholic beliefs about prayer would miss the issue that Catholics believe it has power, and use that as a tool for group cohesion, regardless of whether the beliefs can be substantiated in a clinical or scientific setting. The article has gone to great length to repeatedly state upfront that it does not claim any powers, but just reviews what they believe about them. And again, (yes again) not having power in the title reduces search capabilities. The article does not relate to Catholic beliefs on "the duty to pray" but on the power attributed (allegedly) to prayer. One could write a whole article on the "duty to pray" and it would be a different artiicle and they would both relate to "beliefs on prayer". The 2nd article may be a needed on its own anyway for the sake of completion, but there is no need to mix the two. This way if any one searches for "catholic + prayer + power" the page will be found. Hence power needs to be there in the title, but if adding Catholic beliefs to the front of it will end this discussion, then let us agree and I will just move it as such.Thanks History2007 (talk) 11:43, 9 December 2007 (UTC).
- I would be happy with the title Catholic beliefs on the power of prayer. Barrylb (talk) 12:24, 9 December 2007 (UTC)
[edit] The Efficacy of prayer
Before I opened it, I thought this article would be about a Sunday radio show from the 40s, since the article Efficacy of prayer already exists. The neutral title of this subject is correctly Efficacy of prayer; the asserted "power" is unsubstantiated. Employing "power" in the very title itself is a common rhetorical trick that embodies the correct significance of "to beg the question." (This page is not on Wetman's watchlist.)--Wetman (talk) 00:22, 10 December 2007 (UTC)
- As discussed above, the efficacy of prayer is another topic. It is likely this article will be renamed very shortly to Catholic beliefs on the power of prayer. Barrylb (talk) 03:05, 10 December 2007 (UTC)
Ok, based on all the discussion above, I have renamed/moved it to Catholic beliefs on the power of prayer. I hope this settles the issue for good. History2007 (talk) 03:56, 10 December 2007 (UTC)
Thank you. I think these discussion pages somehow have a better effect in balancing things than one might at first expect. Interestingly, from a mathematical point of view, these discussions seem to either converge rather rapidly towards a stable point, or oscillate for a long time. I wonder why... It may have to do with the effort spent in creating alternative paths for convergence.... I have to think about that...But anyway, we seem to have reached the stable point now. History2007 (talk) 08:03, 12 December 2007 (UTC) .
[edit] Unpublished Synthesis?
I have waited over three weeks for someone to point out where the alleged "unpublished synthesis" took place within this article. There have been no responses. I will wait 2 or 3 more days. If there is no response, and a specific mention of which sentences have been synthesized without attribution, I will remove the tag from the top of the page. If anyone has a specific item that they think is improperly attributed please point it out exactly on this page, state your point clearly with suitable references and I will either remove that item, or rework it so it will have completely correct attribution. However, without any specific items, the allegation of improper attribution can not, as of now be supported, and unless anyone has a specific logical point to make, I will remove that tag in 2 or 3 days. Thank you. History2007 (talk) 23:21, 23 December 2007 (UTC)
After the three weeks mentioned above, and the second request for clarification and justification for the tag, I waited 3 more days, and there were no responses, so I will now remove the tag. Thanks History2007 (talk) 23:23, 26 December 2007 (UTC)
