Talk:Catholic Scouts of Europe

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Scouting Wiki Project Catholic Scouts of Europe is part of the Scouting WikiProject, an effort to build a comprehensive and detailed guide to Scouting and Guiding on the Wikipedia. This includes but is not limited to boy and girl organizations, WAGGGS and WOSM organizations as well as those not so affiliated, country and region-specific topics, and anything else related to Scouting. If you would like to participate, you can edit the article attached to this page, or visit the project page, where you can join the project and/or contribute to the discussion.
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Contents

[edit] Source

This article is a translation of de:Katholische Pfadfinderschaft Europas. --jergen 13:24, 28 January 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Name change

First, my apologies for messsing up the page history. I have hopefully fixed the mess I made. That being said, I wanted to point out that jergen did not apply the deliberation and consensus he demands from others when he changed the name of thnis article. --evrik (talk) 18:18, 6 February 2007 (UTC)

Evrik, please refrain from personal remarks.
Didn't you even read the history? The move comment (actually at [1]) clearly states "ambigous name, used by several organizations". You can find some of them at UIGSE:
  • Katholische Pfadfinderschaft Europas - Österreich (Austria)
  • Katholische Pfadfinderschaft Europas (Germany)
  • Associazione Italiana Guide e Scouts d'Europa Cattolici della FSE (Italy)
Can you please give a source that uses this translation? I just get one Google-hit [2], refferring to none of the above groups but perhaps to the French organization.
Please find a way to restore the original title and the full article history as soon as possible. --jergen 19:02, 6 February 2007 (UTC)
  • ummm Jergen, pointing out an action of yours and referring to your previous stance is not a personal attack. As a matter of fact, I did read the history. I disagree with the changing of the name from an English name to a foreign language on the English wiki. If other organizations shared the name, then a disambig should have been created, or perhaps they should have all been written about under one article. It still remains that you made the cahnge unilaterally, without consulting anyone - which is what you have been railing against. --evrik (talk) 19:28, 6 February 2007 (UTC)
You remember the commonly used thing on WP:UE?
There is no commonly used english translation. But there are lots of translations one can make up - only Katholische has a clear translation with Catholic; Pfadfinderschaft (within a coeducational organization) can be Scouts, Scouts and Guides, Scouting, Scouting and Guiding, Scout Association or Scout and Guide Association; Europas translates as European or of Europe. So there are at least twelve possible and correct translations - which one to choose?
BTW, this org doesn't fall in our mediation's scope: It is not WAGGGS or WOSM and there is no source for any English translation. --jergen 19:45, 6 February 2007 (UTC)
  • would you mind detailing for me when it's okay for you to act unilaterally, without consulting anyone? You have rabbited on in the past about the 'process.' I just want to make sure I understand what your rules are. As for the mediation. This whole thing started with the Italian Catholic article. --evrik (talk) 20:33, 6 February 2007 (UTC)
Not the above mentioned Italian organization; it was AGESCI.
I'll put in more details when moving articles before the mediation is closed; promised. But moves do not happen very often. --jergen 21:10, 6 February 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Removal of "see also" section

I removed this section because none of the listed organizations is in any way connected to the KPE. They are all Catholic organizations, but that's not special. Nearly all members of UIGSE are Catholic based as well as about 15 members of WOSM who form - together with the pastoral commissions of 25 interreligious organizations the CICS. --jergen 20:26, 11 February 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Neutrality

This article is not NPOV. There is more criticism of the organization based on anecdotal evidence than actual encyclopedic information. The "History" Section does not describe the actual history of the organization but instead when critics had something negative to say about the organization. The article lists proselytism as one main point of criticism, yet notes as a point of criticism that the the KPE does hardly have contact to other movements. As only Catholics are allowed to be members, whom would they proselytize, then? 84.160.17.8 21:00, 15 February 2007 (UTC)

The tagging is unbased:
  • Anecdotal evidence: The controversy section gives seven independent sources, two of them pro-KPE.
  • History: Except its founding and the external recognitions there is no "internal" history reaching the criteria defined in WP:Notability; the organization's official homepage mentions only changes in leadership and internal events [3]. None of the items mentioned in the history section is POV, and all you may see as "critics" are sourced.
  • Prosetytism: There is nowhere stated that only Catholics are admitted as members; proselytation can also occur within one denomination and refers here to traditionalist groups within the Catholic church.
Removed the tag because it is unbased. You are free to add content; please give sources. --jergen 10:29, 16 February 2007 (UTC)
Whatever. It's useless to discuss with people who don't wait for the end of a discussion, but instead revert everything instantly. It is quite obvious how biased you are (internal events are not of Notability, but an internal publication which is not liked, is). It is also obvious that you have no idea of what you are talking (e.g. "it is nowhere stated that only Catholics are admitted", see [1.2.9-1.2.13], but of course you are always correct and can revert everything instantly. Bye. —The preceding unsigned comment was added by 84.160.75.100 (talk) 20:56, 16 February 2007 (UTC).
The statutes of UIGSE say nothing about admitting solely Catholics: members should be Christians, must be baptised before making their promise and leaders are required to adhere to the same religion as the unit/association (1.2.14). --jergen 09:34, 17 February 2007 (UTC)
The statues say In a country where several Christian confessions exist, scout or guides units belonging to the various Churches or Communities may cohabit within a same association, each group welcoming the young people belonging to the same Church or Community, according to the norms of the Rules. That is why there is the EPE for Protestants. Or to be even more clear: The intangible rule of the International Union is not to gather in the same group youths of different confessions, in order to avoid in their minds any risk of relativism or scepticism. [link]. But this discussion is useless anyway, as you have already decided to revert any changes you don't like. 84.160.12.116 10:01, 17 February 2007 (UTC)
And where does this say something about Catholics only? The rule you quoted proposes to start separate units for non-Catholics (or separate organizations like the EPE if these accept the pope as head of Christianity). And even this rule is not applied through the whole association [4]. Perhaps this unit should be removed from the membership role? --jergen 10:24, 17 February 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Unsourced claims

I removed the following sentence because it is not backed up by the reference given.
In 2007, there is at least one group holding corporate membership in both the KPE and the Society of St. Pius X.[1]

The statutes of this group nowhere say they are a KPE group. Actually all of the following statements from the cited statutes would be completely senseless if the group did actually belong to the KPE.

  • „orientieren sich an denen der KPE“
  • „Die Ausbildung wird vorläufig von der KPE übernommen.“
  • „Es wird aus Dankbarkeit gegenüber der KPE getragen.“ -- Túrelio 10:08, 17 March 2007 (UTC)