Talk:Catherine Dolgorukov

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There seems to exist a need of a more extensive consideration of viable options. Arrigo. Options are presented furthest below (thread 5) and there also should debate take place. 09:31, 31 August 2005 (UTC)

Contents

[edit] earlier movings

move to Catherine Dolgoruki - per Wiki convention re queens consort Mowens35 19:39, 26 Apr 2005 (UTC)

Ekaterina Dolgorukova → Catherine Dolgoruki
Here, it is question about (1) whether the surname is established tightly as Dolgoruki in English, and (2) whether to use transliteration or English counterpart of the christian name. Innteresting to see what would be results...217.140.193.123 05:47, 31 August 2005 (UTC)

Ekaterina is the transliteration of the Russian name. Catherine is the very same name in English. The subject herself lived at a time and in such social circles that e.g French was in wide use and she was thus called "Catherine" (French version of the same) quite often.

Dolgorukova is the transliteration of the female form of the surname in question. Dolgoruky or Dolgoruki is the transliteration of the masculine form of the same and the one generally used of the princely family in question.

This nomination to move opens the question what is the most correct way to apply WP:Use English, one of the basic rules here in English Wikipedia.

[edit] No

  • and again, voting no. Masako, Crown Princess of Japan is also not listed as Masako of Japan, so what's the problem here...? Antares911 16:22, 10 Jun 2005 (UTC)
  • Oppose. Absurd proposal - it's not how Russian female surnames are formed. -- Naive cynic 23:16, 28 August 2005 (UTC)
    • That may be the case, but is it not also true that the most commonly used name for her in English is "Catherine Dolgoruky", and that Wikipedia policy demands that articles be titled at something's most commonly used English name?Nohat 08:04, 31 August 2005 (UTC)
    • It seems that there is, indeed, an established tradition to refer to her as "Dolgoruki". even if "Dolgorukaya" also appears. I'm leaning towards reluctant support, but I'm not sure if it's not better to rather prefer consistency here. -- Naive cynic 09:01, 31 August 2005 (UTC)
  • Oppose. I moved this page here because:
a) Dolgoruki/Dolgorouki/Dolgorukiy is a rather vulgar spelling whose use was strongly discouraged by the greatest Russian genealogist, Prince Pyotr Dolgorukov, as well as by other members of the Dolgorukov family;
b) Dolgorukov is a masculine version; the feminine would have been Dolgorukaya. --Ghirlandajo 07:53, 31 August 2005 (UTC)
Paul Theroff who normally uses the most common spelling, lists her as "Catherine Dolgoruky", however. --Ghirlandajo 07:53, 31 August 2005 (UTC)
  • How do you justify having the article at a title which is not the most common English spelling, when policy says that articles should be at the title which is the most common English spelling? Nohat 08:04, 31 August 2005 (UTC)
    • Could we separate the surname question and the givenname question? Now it seems this is getting a decision on confusing basis. Arrigo 08:46, 31 August 2005 (UTC)
  • "Dolgoruki" is out of question. The father was "Dolgorukov". mikka (t) 15:27, 31 August 2005 (UTC)

Hmmm. Let's do it in the following way. I transfer this to Catherine Dolgorukov (which may be hybrid), we dump all the existing votes, and begin a new poll. I have observed earlier that if there is a current name (Catherine Dolgorukov) which is regarded as hybrid by many, it may help to come to consensus of something better. Arrigo 09:27, 31 August 2005 (UTC)

Support Catherine Dolgorukova. --Ghirlandajo 10:23, 31 August 2005 (UTC)
Support Catherine Dolgorukova. Off with traditional British male chauvinism in Russian names, which can be covered by redirects. mikka (t) 15:34, 31 August 2005 (UTC)

[edit] Yes

With some other additional, slightly different reasons, I vote yes to the proposed move. Arrigo 08:50, 22 July 2005 (UTC)

  • Weak Support Probably majority English usage not to inflect Russian names for gender. Septentrionalis 14:40, 31 August 2005 (UTC)
  • Strong Support. "Ekaterina Dolgorukova" gets only 2 Google hits in English, both of which are for this article. "Catherine Dolgoruki", on the other hand, gets nearly 200. I conclude that "Catherine Dolgoruki" is therefore the conventional English name and naming conventions dictate that the English name should be used when it is the most commonly used name in English. On the other hand, there is essentially no evidence at all whatsoever that "Ekaterina Dolgorukova" is used at all in English. Nohat 06:16, 31 August 2005 (UTC) For reference "Catherine Dolgorukova" gets a few more hits than "Ekaterina Dolgorukova", but still an order of magnitude fewer than the conventional English name. Nohat 06:17, 31 August 2005 (UTC)
    "Dolgoruki" is inacceptable: it is a wrong name here, regardless its usage, male or female. mikka (t) 15:30, 31 August 2005 (UTC)
  • I also agree that Catherine Dolgoruki is the most-used English form whether "correct" or not. The argument that is not *correct* cannot stand, since this is an encyclopaedia in English, not in what-I-wish-English-were-like. I have two sources (printed) next to me that both use this name. Wjhonson 19:41, 7 February 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Debate

Please could someone list some other wikipedia examples. Philip Baird Shearer 07:45, 31 August 2005 (UTC)

Hi, Ghirlandajo, could you please determine the queston between transliteration and English first name: Do you accept "Catherine". The surname question seems to have a different basis to you. Arrigo 08:43, 31 August 2005 (UTC)

question: what is the relation of "Dolgorukov" to "Dolgoruk(o)i"? I support either Ekaterina Dolgorukova or Catherine Dolgoruk{i/y} (as common English rendition), but not hybrid forms like "Catherine Dolgorukova". It appears that Dolgorukov(a) vs. Dolgoruk(o)i is an option within Russian? If there is solid evidence that Dolgoruki is discouraged, I support "Ekaterina Dolgorukova". Google tests are harmful in cases of sparse data (for a googlehits count to be convincing, the 'winning' variant should at least have a hit count in the 10,000s). dab (ᛏ) 08:55, 31 August 2005 (UTC)

Wrong (about Google). If it were 4-7, then yes, probabilistic statistical variation makes that meaningless. 200-2, on the other hand, is not meaningless in probability/statistical terms. Noel (talk) 23:23, 2 September 2005 (UTC)
You are probably forgetting that samples are not statistically independent here. · Naive cynic · 10:18, 3 September 2005 (UTC)

To make things even more confusing, it appears that two variants of her family name are used in Russian - Dolgoruky (with feminine form Dolgorukaya) and Dolgorukov (with feminine form Dolgorukova). Hmm... -- Naive cynic 09:18, 31 August 2005 (UTC)

Read above: Dolgoruki/Dolgorouki/Dolgorukiy is a rather incompetent spelling whose use was strongly discouraged by the greatest Russian genealogist, Prince Pyotr Dolgorukov, as well as by other members of the Dolgorukov family --Ghirlandajo 10:24, 31 August 2005 (UTC)
Ah, thank you. I have edited the article accordingly. -- Naive cynic 14:17, 31 August 2005 (UTC)
that's an answer I suppose, but not the one we're looking for. How common is Dolgoruky in Russian (i.e. is P Dolgorukov ranting against common use, or against some obscure variant?) Why is it incompetent? How did the variant arise, and what connotations does it have? dab (ᛏ) 07:25, 2 September 2005 (UTC)

[edit] Proposal to rename

  1. Ekaterina Mikhailovna Dolgorukova
  2. Ekaterina Mikhailovna Dolgorukaya
  3. Catherine Dolgorukova
  4. Catherine Dolgorukov
  5. Catherine Dolgoruki

more....

(When debating, please do not use above numbers, use the full text of the option in question. Have seen situations where numberings change due to new options introduced.)

[edit] Debate

At least we know that her notability comes from being the morganatic wife of Alexander II of Russia, in an era when Russia was international, thus she was noted in Western Europe. Very obviously, that is the reason why she is known as "Catherine" - otherwise we would not even consider that given name version. Arrigo 09:48, 31 August 2005 (UTC)

  • What about Catherine Dolgorukova, Princess Yurievskaya? That was the title given to her by Alexander II, and possibly what some people know her by. Otherwise I'd suggest Catherine Dolgorukova.

[edit] Stalemate?

This requested move has been listed on WP:RM since 31 August, and there has been no activity on this talk page since 9 September. Is it fair to say that "no clear consensus has been reached" and the request can be deleted? –Hajor 03:51, 14 October 2005 (UTC)

[edit] Decision

It was requested that this article be renamed but there was no consensus for it to be moved. Ryan Norton T | @ | C 00:20, 15 October 2005 (UTC)

[edit] Rated start-Class

Hi. This article now qualifies for start, with good referencing, proper tone and sectioning (Trivia converted to In media and wikified). I can find no reference at all to the 1959 film version of Katia being named anything other in USA film, therefore the footnote removed until sourced, when it can be re-added. Thanks. Ref (chew)(do) 12:40, 26 January 2008 (UTC)