Talk:Cathedral of Saint Sava

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t is a common and modern affectation to refer to the Orthodox Church Building (Ecclesia) as a Temple (Templon) by those who think it sounds prettier. But in fact, as Orthodox Christianity is the continuation of the true church from its Jewish Roots there needs to be a distinction made between the nature of the Jewish Temple that housed the Holy of Holies (God's window to Earth), and the Church building which is our window into heaven. In English, there are certain negative connotations to the word Temple as it is commonly also used to describe pagan edifices. --Phiddipus 01:22, 24 January 2006 (UTC)

• I have to object the name of the church in Belgrade in Serbian is called "Hram Svetog Save", which translates to the "Temple of St. Sava".

--Happyman22 03:32, 24 January 2006 (UTC)

Indeed, if not Temple, how would it be called? Church of Saint Sava? Cathedral of Saint Sava? Nikola 09:41, 24 January 2006 (UTC)

I concur with Phiddipus, temple does have a certain non-Christian connotation to it. "Saborni hram" might translate into 'Cathedral' (in English) or simply shrine (for temple). Anonymous

As I'm not a native English speaker so I can't definitely advise on this, but will offer some insights. In Serbian the word "hram" is, too, used for pagan temples but for Orthodox temples as well. Consider also [1] vs [2] vs [3]. Compare with Temple in Jerusalem - Jews are not pagans. Nikola 10:25, 25 January 2006 (UTC)

An Orthodox Christian place of worship simply CANNOT be styled a temple. Whoever the translator might have been, he or she has not checked even one English dictionary. 1)English does not have the Church Slavonic tradition of calling a pagan, Jewish and Christian places of worship with the same name. This goes back to the first translations of Ss Cyril and Methodius and their disciples. 2)Moreover, this tradition is not present among the Non-Orthodox Slavs, but holds true ONLY for languages of the 'Orthodox' Slavic nations - Bulgarians, Russians (+Byelorussians, Ukrainians) and Serbs (+ Montenegrins, Macedonians). Check any other Slavic language. 3)'Hram' in Serbian is a synonym of 'crkva', but 'temple' is not synonymous to 'church' in English . 4)So far no Orthodox Christian church has ever been called temple in English. If it was not for a few negligible Protestant sects, we might say it held good for the whole of Christendom. Somehow, I'm quite sure you wouldn't like to equate the greatest Serbian church with a meeting place of an American or French Protestant sect (very often alternately called a 'tent', which sometimes it really is!). 5)The translator hasn't bothered to consider a Serbian (let alone Russian or Church Slavonic) dictionary either. 'Hram' is an exact synonym of 'crkva' (cerkov') without any shade of meaning designating 'a large or an important church' as you seem to hint. Check any Serbian explanatory dictionary. 6)'Temple' is a word of Latin and NOT Greek origin - it entered Greek quite late. Consequently, someone's quoting a supposed Greek prototype is rather ridiculous. In modern Greek it simply indicates an iconostasis. 7)The Jews are not pagans indeed, but as usual they are an exception. Therefore, every decent dictionary (even some pocket editions) warns that 'temple' may refer to 'one of three successive buildings for Hebrew worship in ancient Jerusalem built respectively by Solomon, Zerubbabel, and Herod the Great'. 8)The Temple in London contains an Anglican church, as it's an ex-headquarters of the Knights Templars, and its senior clergyman is still called the 'Master of the Temple'. However, as there were no Templars on Vracar... 9)'Cathedral' signifies not only a bishop's or the principal church of a diocese, but also 'any of various large or important nonepiscopal churches'. Russian 'sobor' is commonly translated as 'cathedral'. As a professor of English, Russian and Church Slavonic languages (I hope I won't be forced to send you my diplomas and curricula), as a Master of Arts and a doctorand in Medieval Studies, I entreat (= beg) you to change the title of the Wikipedia article and remove all the temples from there. Doing it and not persisting in stubbornness would do a great favour to all the Serbian people and disassociate them from the pagans, ancient Jews and American and French Protestants. Sincerely, A.Novalija, Ljubljana89.212.91.80 05:47, 19 August 2007 (UTC)

PS Calling into evidence the quantity of Google results is a funny argument. Irresponsible translators created the collocation, and the foreign tourists and tourist guides just go with the flow. 'Wild Serbs and their temples'. :) Alen89.212.91.80 05:54, 19 August 2007 (UTC)

I would agree - I am currently translating the web site of the Belgrade Tourist Organisation (or rather, the Tourist Organisation of Belgrade) and I am planning to opt for "Cathedral" not Temple. Temple just does not have sufficiently Christian connotations in English. I also agree that while Google searches CAN be very helpful in determining the consensus of usage (after all, most language usage is consensual at the end of the day), but in a case such as this, errors or inadequate solutions are often replicated across many websites, and this needs to be taken into account. Markowe (talk) 12:38, 10 December 2007 (UTC)