Talk:Cathedral

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Contents 1 Eastern Orthodox Cathedrals 2 Dubuque Photo 3 Meath, Ireland 4 opening 5 Lack of headings 6 Strasbourg 7 Byzantine cathedrals 8 Biggest, tallest... 9 Patriarchal basilica 10 Freemasonry 11 Pictures 12 Some additional info 13 Additional sections 13.1 Personnel 13.2 Services 13.3 Music 13.4 Community 14 Where were there Provosts? 14.1 Cologne Cathedral v. Cathedral of São Paulo 15 Gallery 15.1 Pics

[edit] Eastern Orthodox Cathedrals

"The term "cathedral" is not officially used in Eastern Orthodoxy, the church of a bishop being known as "the great church", though cathedral is commonly used in English translations. The Oriental Orthodox Churches similarly do not have cathedrals as such, however some major churches like Saint Mark's Coptic Orthodox Cathedral in Cairo are called cathedrals."

I'm going to delete this because it's actually not true. The term "cathedral" is used officially, just not very often in some languages. In the Greek Orthodox Church, the terms "kathedrikos naos" (literally: "cathedral shrine") and "metropolis" (literally "mother city") are used interchangeably to describe the same thing. "Metropolis" is more common, but both terms are officially used. If someone wants to replace it with a more accurate parapraph, that would be cool. Skyduster (talk) 00:10, 18 March 2008 (UTC)

[edit] Dubuque Photo

Cathedrals are swwweeettt dude.Most of these cathedral photos are great, but what is up with Saint Raphael's Cathedral, Dubuque, Iowa? First of all, it's not a very important cathedral. But even if there is a desire for a modest example (perhaps to counter the idea that a cathedral is always towering and impressive), there could at least be a photo that doesn't look like it was taken through the trees from someone's apartment window. It's terrible. emw 16:19, 25 May 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Meath, Ireland

Traces of the tribal and migratory system may still be noted in the designations of the Irish see of Meath (where the result has been that there is now no cathedral church)

Above line is disputed (but I have left it in the text for now!). Which See of Meath is it talking about? Roman Catholic or Church of Ireland? (The Ecclesiastical Titles Act meant that Roman Catholicism and the Church of England use different names for their seas. In Ireland most use the same or similar names.

The Roman Catholic diocese does have a cathedral. It used to be St. Mary's Church in Navan, Co. Meath. In the early twentieth century, it was moved to a new location, and is now The Cathedral of Christ the King in Mullingar. Unfortunately I don't know any details about the Church of Ireland diocese, other than (a) the Bishops used to live in Ardbraccan, outside Navan but now live in County Kildare; (b) the diocese is now known as the Diocese of Meath and Kildare. So even if Meath itself doesn't have a Church of Ireland cathedral (though centuries ago, there used to be a cathedral in Trim, Co. Meath, which may be pre-reformation - I'll have to check Dean Cogan's History of the RC diocese of Meath), Kildare might have one. Anyone out there know the answer. (In any case I'll check with the C of I if I get the chance. If they do have a diocesian cathedral, I'll axe this line. In the meantime, I am putting a strike through. JtdIrL 04:00 Mar 8, 2003 (UTC)

[edit] opening

> A Cathedral is a (frequently but not always large) Christian church, the central church of a bishopric.

That sounds pretty clumsy. What about moving the large bit to the end -- although I can't offhand think of a graceful phrasing. The best I can do offhand is:

A Cathedral is a Christian church, the central church of a bishopric, and usually an imposing building.

Eliminating the weaselling, how is it now? Btw, I think the travelling bishops thing is a little fanciful. Like the Somerseatas: an invention of Edwardian antiquaries, were they not? Somerset, published in 1907 by G.W. Wade and J.H. Wade, (authors of Rambles in Somerset, Rambles in Devon etc) briefly features them. Are authenic "Somerseatas" mentioned in any document? Why are we taliing about Roman cathedrals in England anyway. This isn't waffle, it's marmelade... Wetman 01:12, 21 Jul 2004 (UTC)

[edit] Lack of headings

i was just woundering if it would be better if the artical was split up into a few more headings / sub headings.

[edit] Strasbourg

You refer to Strasbourg "and other german cities". Strasbourg may have been German (1870-1918 and 1940-45) but it is now firmly back in France. Münster: Several English cathedral are called "Minster" e.g. York Minster, as I understood it because they had been built by monks and were part of monasteries.

[edit] Byzantine cathedrals

Hey guys. Does anybody have a guide/URL to the styles/rhythms of Byzantine cathedrals? I need it for my article in the Saint Andrew cathedral in the city of patras... thanks. Project2501a 20:43, 23 Dec 2004 (UTC)

[edit] Biggest, tallest...

Do we have a list of the "largest" cathedrals, with some appropriate measurement of "largest"? David.Monniaux 15:13, 4 Apr 2005 (UTC)

Suprisingly not, as far as I can tell. If I can't find one, I will start one. Sylvain1972 17:24, 29 May 2007 (UTC)

OK, I've started "largest" to go with "tallest" -- List of largest cathedrals in the world Sylvain1972 17:24, 29 May 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Patriarchal basilica

The use of patriarchal basilica in reference to the Lateran Basilica only refers to it belonging to the class of major basilicas in Rome, each traditionally assigned to a patriarch. It has nothing to do with its position in the hierarchy. It being the Roman cathedral is enough for it to be the chief Roman church, chief Italian church, chief Western church, and chief Ecumenical church for Roman Catholics. If being a patriarchal basilica had anything to do with hierarchial position, then Saint Peter's Basilica, the patriarchal basilica traditionally assigned to the Patriarch of Constantinople, would be the patriarchal church of the Byzantine Rite, which was never the case. Pmadrid 8 July 2005 13:07 (UTC)

[edit] Freemasonry

Let's not forget where freemasonry stems from (people who knew the art of building cathedrals). 83.5.214.83 15:38, 18 June 2006 (UTC)

This article is not about the construction of cathedrals. Its about the history and organisation.

--Amandajm 00:56, 14 June 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Pictures

I think it's a shame that all of the pictures in this article are of Roman Catholic Cathedrals. The Orthodox DO have them, even if it's not the official name. Can we get an example of an Orthodox Cathedral on this page? St. Basil's in Moscow is pretty striking, visually, but there are lots of other good ones. I'd put one on here, but I'm pretty new to the editing thing, and I'm not sure what to do to make sure a given picture is public domain. Ştefan 12:48, 2 December 2006 (UTC)

There is currently a a mixture of cathedrals from mmany different countries. They are Roman Catholic, Anglican, Episcopal, Orthodox, and I don't know what else. They have been selected to show a wide range of sizes, styles, traditions etc. They have also been selected for format and "good picture quality". But I don't know if any very significant aspect has been left out that really ought to be included. This doesn't mean that every country needs to be represented, as many people can relate to different aspects of churches in other countries as well as their own. The interior of the cathedral in the US, for example, could well be in Australia or many other countries. Amandajm 05:51, 7 October 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Some additional info

"One interesting fact about the building of a cathedral, was that whenever a townsperson was about to die, a bishop or a builder would go to that person and ask him or her to donate all their belongings to the building fund of the cathedral."

The above piece of information was added, without references (like almost everything else) and was definitely in the wrong section, but could perhpas be useful. Amandajm 13:37, 18 October 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Additional sections

Aero07 decided that these stubs were useless and deleted them! They have been sitting there in the article for quite a while as stubs. Why doesn't some nice person who knows about this stuff fill them out? Pleeease do! The put them back under the intro that says Functions

[edit] Personnel

Please help improve this section by expanding it. Further information might be found on the talk page or at requests for expansion.

[edit] Services

Please help improve this section by expanding it. Further information might be found on the talk page or at requests for expansion.

What are the day to day services of the cathedral? And the major festivals?

[edit] Music

Please help improve this section by expanding it. Further information might be found on the talk page or at requests for expansion.

The role of the choir, the organ, associated composers

[edit] Community

Please help improve this section by expanding it. Further information might be found on the talk page or at requests for expansion.

OK, what goes here?

Amandajm 13:44, 18 October 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Where were there Provosts?

So the original text here said that provosts were usual "outside the British Isles", and the proposed revision says they were usual "on continential Europe." There would be no reason to worry about the change--and it would be good to make if it soothed ruffled feathers--if the terms were complements, but they aren't. There are, after all, areas which are neither part of the British Isles nor on continental Europe, and many of them have cathedrals. Important cases are cathedrals on islands (Sicily, Corsica, etc), and the Latin kingdom of Jerusalem is also relevant. Even more curious is that the article begins to speak of the term "provost" being unknown "in England." Were there large Scottish or Irish churches at the time to consult? What was their term for the senior officer? I think we should figure this out. A brief check of the Catholic Encyclopedia was not helpful, AFAICT. My concern is that the relevant question here is "where were there Provosts", not "let's pretend we know and then put in geographical terms to match." I think the editors of this article have generally really not known. Tb (talk) 14:19, 3 April 2008 (UTC)

Further disastrousness. A while ago the article said "abroad" there were provosts. Obviously that had to go! One assumes it came from a British encyclopedia or some such, perhaps the old Brittanica which was the basis for many Wikipedia articles. If that's true, it means "outside England", roughly, but not in such a way as to exclude Scotland or Ireland or Wales: that is, hopelessly vaguely "generally away from here". All the more reason we should maybe try to find out the facts. Tb (talk) 14:22, 3 April 2008 (UTC)

Confirmed. The language goes back to "abroad" from the 1911 encyclopedia which was then changed to "outside the British Isles" in a laudable attempt to be less location-centric. Tb (talk) 14:24, 3 April 2008 (UTC)

[edit] Cologne Cathedral v. Cathedral of São Paulo

The reason why I have reversed this change by an unnamed editor, twice, is simply that the pics have been very carefully selected. The lower picture is a rare image of the interior of a cathedral in use, with a procession taking place. Wiki commons has very few pictures like that one. The upper picture, the exterior of São Paulo, was carefully selected from among the many hundreds of exterior views of cathedrals, as a visual complement to the chosen interior.

The view of Cologne Cathedral is spectacular on its own. But it does not complement the interior view in any way. The picture is of much larger proportion and makes the other picture look insignificant. An effective article needs to be well laid out and look good, as well as providing information. This is not an article about great architecture. It is an article about religious function, and to that end, the Cathedral of São Paulo is equally representative. Amandajm (talk) 14:45, 17 April 2008 (UTC)

Hi, I'm really sorry for this. I changed the picture twice before and I did it again today. Then I read this post and I have to say that I agree with your reasons. I tried to change back the image and the text, but I can't remember exactly what it said, therefore it's not the same you wrote. I thought that some brazilian guy was obsessed with the new cathedral and was trying to put it on the top image of the article. On my view, Cologne Cathedral is a more representative cathedral on an historical context. Anyway, your aesthetical point of view completely justifies having Catedral da Se on top of the procession. I send you my greetings and apologies. MinosMx (talk) 17:59, 19 April 2008 (UTC)

[edit] Gallery

An editor recently up and changed a bunch of the gallery images, radically reducing the geographic spread of the previous set, and mistakenly including St. Peter's Basilica (not a cathedral at all). I've reverted the changes, because there seems to be nothing wrong with the other set, and the changes were not explained at all. Tb (talk) 21:18, 5 May 2008 (UTC)

As promised, this was the gallery that I had in mind.

The Milan Cathedral is a very large cathedral in gothic style in Milan, Italy.	The Santa Maria del Fiore in Florence, Italy.	The nave of the Cologne Cathedral in Cologne, Germany.	Aachen Cathedral is one of the oldest cathedrals of Europe in Aachen, Germany.
Wawel Cathedral is the most important cathedral of Poland in Krakow, Poland.	St. Stephen's Cathedral is a national symbol in Vienna, Austria.	The Notre Dame de Paris in Paris, France.	Statues adorn the facade of the Cathedral of Chartres in Chartres, France.
The Cathedral of Girona is one of the smaller cathedrals in Spain.	The Cathedral of Santiago de Compostela is a major pilgrimage site in Santiago de Compostela, Spain.	Stained Glass inside the St. Vitus Cathedral in Prague, the Czech Republic.	The Lutheran Cathedral of Uppsala, Sweden.
Saint Basil's Cathedral is a large Russian Orthodox cathedral on the Red Square in Moscow, Russia.	The Lutheran Cathedral of Reykjavík, Iceland.	Tbilisi Sameba Cathedral is the main Georgian Orthodox cathedral in Tbilisi, Georgia.	Deesis hagiasophia.jpg The Deësis mosaics in the Hagia Sophia unveil that this former mosque used to be a cathedral in Istanbul, Turkey.
The Mexico City Metropolitan Cathedral in Mexico City, Mexico.	This modern cathedral is located in the city of Brasilia, Brazil.	Saint Patrick’s Cathedral on Fifth Avenue on Manhattan, New York City, United States of America.	The Washington National Cathedral is a large cathedral of the Episcopal Church in the United States located in Washington D.C. in the United States of America.
The Cathedral of St. Vincent de Paul in Tunis, Tunesia.	Se Cathedral in Goa, India.	The Ruins of St. Paul's is all what’s left of this cathedral in Macau, People’s Republic of China.	Saint Mary’s Cathedral in Sydney, Australia.

Massimo Catarinella (talk)

In addition to this I would love to remove some images in the article itself and replace some images.

Thanks for this nice work. These are nearly all bulk external shots; one (Chartres statues) is an exterior detail. The current article has some more variety in the gallery: some stained glass, an interior, a bell. I'd like it if we can keep those images. Also, the existing gallery has some smaller cathedrals, which is nice to show the diversity of the subject (thinking of the Dubuque one and Rejkjavik examples, say). Also, the text here is too wordy for a gallery, which in my opinion should just have the title of what's there and the location, and not the descriptions. The Brasilia example is a wonderful addition, and an exciting building to boot! Tb (talk) 20:55, 6 May 2008 (UTC)

I made some changes to the gallery. I hope you like this new version more. I will also try to find some better pictures to replace the current pictures in the article with.Massimo Catarinella (talk)

The images in the text

They have been chosen to meet a couple of criteria.

• Layout.. Wiith the exception of the bishops chair from Sydney (the only such pic I had available) they all meet the layout criteria (MY criteria, since I chose them) of being landscape format. My reasoning was that this allows for a large number of images which can all be sized the same, and all look reasonably good together..
• Content... The lead pics are not chosen as the greatest works of architecture. They are more like the sort of catherdals that millions of people attend.. The one in the US is a rare shot of a ceremony taking place.. The two pics were chosen specifically to go together.

All the other pics in the text have been chose to illustrate the text itself.. I have no doubt that some can be improved upon, but I wanted a broad look at cathedrals, and various aspects of them, historical, present day, and how they relate to their town. Architectural grandeur was the least of the issues, because it is dealt with elsewhere, in a number of different articles.

Some of the pictures are rarer than you would think, eg, a choir performing, a congregation (leaving after the service, in this case) etc.

I also chose pics that were where possible, the most artistic shot available.

Gallery- I chose the pics initially, and included things like the stainedglass, the bell etc, to try and give a general view of things that are common to many cathedrals. I also wanted to include Catholic, Anglican, Protestant and different Orthodox cathedrals, as well as cathedrals from Europe, Africa, India, other parts of Asia, the Americas and Australasia. Many people expanded the gallery with their favourites.

I think perhaps the gallery could be reorganised, and that the criteria could be discussed here.

Amandajm (talk) 10:42, 7 May 2008 (UTC)

I have just looked again at the new gallery, and I think that there is good info and the two should be combined.

But I don't like the historic image of Milan, included with the recent images. St Marks is not a cathedral. There is too much of Italy. Let's think about this some more!

Amandajm (talk) 10:49, 7 May 2008 (UTC)

My plan for the pictures in the article itself was to improve some images as I already have done. With improving I mean replacing a image of the same cathedral with a better one. I was not intending on removing or changing the images of the choir singing for example. There are however to many pictures in the article itself. So I would suggest removing the images of the same structuren, that would be in the new gallery. I will replace the Basilica di San Marco, but I thought it was a basilica and a cathedral. The article about the church also says so. Massimo Catarinella (talk) —Preceding comment was added at 11:46, 7 May 2008 (UTC)

Why are there to many cathedrals from Italy in the new gallery? The country with the highest density of cathedrals is probably Italy. It is also home to a large number of famous and beautiful cathedrals. It only seems fare, that Italy receives three images in the new gallery. —Preceding unsigned comment added by Massimo Catarinella (talk • contribs) 11:51, 7 May 2008 (UTC)

[edit] Pics

• St Mark's is definitely not a cathedral. The cathedral of Venice is Torcello Cathedral. St Peter's is also not a cathedral. Many of the finest and most famous churches of Italy are basilicas but not cathedrals. There is an historical reason why Italy has a large number of cathedrals- it is because the towns fought each other, and would not accept the rule of a bishop from a neighbouring town. In England, by comparison, there were only about 18 cathedrals (there are more now). The result of the high density of cathedrals in Italy is that many of the cathedrals are merely large churches- they not larger or more architecturally significant than the other churches around them. In Padua, for example, it is the church of St Anthony that is the most significant church, not the cathedral. The exceptions of course (in Northern Italy) are Florence, Siena, Milan, Orvieto and Pisa.

• I think that it is better to give a world view of Christianity, than have 3 pics from one country, when there will probably be only 20 images. Remember that this is not about architecture.

• For a major rearrangement to look good, then you have to select and arrange images exactly as if you were putting paintings on a gallery wall. It is very easy to take good images and arrange them badly.

• When you write captions, remember that there is only a small space beneath the gallery. The caption needs to state the whereabouts, but does not need to be in a sentence. In other words, don't write a sentence that says "The Notre Dame Cathedral of Paris is one of the cathedrals in Paris France". It is quite enough to say "Notre Dame Cathedral, Paris, France".

Amandajm (talk) 12:26, 7 May 2008 (UTC)

Ok, now I understand more what you want this gallery to be like. As for the Basilica di San Marco, my mistake. Everything else you said about Italy, I was well aware of, but thanks anyway. Do you have further suggestions for the new gallery? What picture would you like to keep from the old gallery? The new arrangement of the gallery? Massimo Catarinella (talk)