Talk:Catharine MacKinnon

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[edit] Balance

I think there should be more mention of the anti-pornography ordinance, although it should probably be as a separate article that is linked in somehow. What's the style for such things? Should the text of the ordinance be included in an article about it? Or should it just be a discussion of the various aspects of the ordinance with an external link to the actual text?

I think it's important to mention the anti-pornography ordinance because it's one of the events most referred to when discussing MacKinnon in feminist publications (or at least the ones that i've read. sorry, i can't think of the specific examples at the moment). In one of the articles currently listed in the "external links" section, it refers to MacKinnon as a proponent of censorship, but I believe that MacKinnon argued the ordinance not from a censorship standpoint or from an anti-sex standpoint, but rather from a civil rights standpoint saying that pornography causes measurable harm to women and that when it does, women should be able to sue. Doviende 22:09, 16 September 2005 (UTC)

Hmm... Based on what I've read in her book Only Words, my take has always been that MacKinnon argues pornography isn't and hasn't ever been actual speech, and thus can't be protected (or, for that matter, censored). The Literate Engineer 03:27, 17 September 2005 (UTC)

[edit] Password-Protected Link

One of the external links ( The Outsider: Catharine MacKinnon ) -> ( http://www.tnstate.edu/cmcginnis/theoutsider.htm ) is password-protected and inaccessible to most. This should probably be changed or deleted.

Bloom Radio 18:27, 17 February 2006 (UTC)


[edit] Citation needed

Could somebody provide a citation for this:

Instead, Dworkin and MacKinnon defined pornography as: "the graphic sexually explicit subordination of women through pictures or words" that also includes a specific list of concrete presentations ranging from objectification to extreme violence. Instead of condemning pornography for violating "community standards" of sexual decency or modesty, they characterized pornography as a form of sex discrimination, and sought to give women the right to seek damages under civil rights law.

-- I put in the text of the ordinance and also provided a citation.

[edit] All pubs or just the books

You know, Dr. MacKinnon's list of publications is listed at her faculty web page. Should we restrict the list to just her books? I do not feel strongly about this one way or the other, but most profs. do not get the full list of pubs at Wikipedia. If Dr. MacKinnon is a special case because she is so widely cited, then I concede the point, but just from a matter of style, I think that her list of books describes who she is pretty well and the long list of publications provides the reader with a limited amount of new information. Maybe just a paragraph summarizing the list would be more effective. -- 75.24.213.40 00:31, 3 July 2006 (UTC)

The list was added by User:Currer1013 in March 2006, that account did litttle else. Well, it is a judgement call. Most peopel will likely skip over the list, but I will leave it in for now, again because she is so widely cited. -- 75.26.4.46 05:11, 3 July 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Bias

The entry is extremely biased. Are her critics even mentioned? What about the fact that they call her a "Feminazi," which is a testament to extreme views? Even many of her fellow leftists detest her legal philosophy, for example, civil libertarian Nat Hentoff of the Village Voice.

You're welcome to add the views of said critics, assuming they're notable enough to warrant being mentioned. I don't have any of Hentoff's books, so I can't do so easily, but perhaps you can. --zenohockey 03:59, 27 August 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Censored?

MacKinnon wants pornography "censored"? Huh? With friends like the nudist Nikki Craft, maybe our problem is communicaiton. Are we, perhaps, not defining pornography very well? The old "I know it when I see it" does not cut much ice with an trained and disciplined mind like MacKinnon. -- PinkCake 19:12, 6 October 2006 (UTC)

I have reshaped the article slightly. MacKinnon is clearly a legal scholar. It seems we are having some difficulty defining what I will call her "social legacy" is, so I have given that subject its own section. This seems to have to do with some "theories" she has that are strictly of a social nature and her relationship to other feminists. Now, can we get some supporting documentation about the assertions made? After we tighten that up, then maybe we can add ONE SENTENCE to the lead section about it, whatever "it" is. Also: If her scholarly legal writings translate to actual laws in some country where English is an official language, then I am willing to entertain that they are notable beyond our duty to index them. The rest will tend to devolved into legal mumbo jumbo that dissipates not long beyond the lifetime of the writer. I REALLY respect Prof. MacKinnon, but I want to know the real impact of her legal writings beyond just the wishful thinking of an old woman (I am sorry to put it so bluntly, but please let's be practical here - she has written much and we need a coherent and correct executive summary and not just a flavor of the day about the latest sophmoric gripe about MacKinnon just because her message is not necessarily the life the of party). -- PinkCake 19:22, 6 October 2006 (UTC)

[edit] not just her sensational(ized) views

It would also be helpful to spend more time on her most successful (within law) contribution to legal theory - the sexual harassment doctrine, and the framing of sexual harassment as discrimination under Title VII and Equal Protection law.

Her analysis of pornography deserves balanced treatment - it's also what she is publicly linked with most often. But some of that is pure sensationalism - her view is easy to caricature.

Anyway, it shouldn't overshadow the sexual harassment doctrine - which probably should not be subsumed into "other work." You could argue that creating the situation where people are able to sue for sexual harassment (which was not possible until recently) is _as great_ a contribution to Americans experience of law, and to legal theory, as her critique of pornography. Djripley 19:38, 18 October 2006 (UTC)

[edit] NPOV tag for bias

In the last couple of months, this article has been greatly expanded by anonymous editor 68.50.186.198. While his or her contribution has been valuable, it is flawed by flagrant bias in favor of the views of the subject of the article, Catherine MacKinnon, therefore putting the article in violation of WP:NPOV.

Just for starters – a whole section of "accolades" by admirers by Cass Sunstein, but absolutely no mention of criticism of MacKinnon, much less a section? Give me a break! MacKinnon is one of the single most controversial legal thinkers of our day – an article which shortchanges this criticism is one that's flagrantly biased in her favor. MacKinnon's approach to law and feminism has been heavily criticized from several quarters for many years now, from several quarters – civil libertarians, of course, as well as sex-positive feminists and postmodernist thinkers. Notable authors who have written works critical of MacKinnon include Nat Hentoff, Nadine Strossen, Ronald Dworkin, Wendy Kaminer, Susie Bright, Donna Haraway, John Maxwell Coetzee, Drucilla Cornell, Angela Harris, and Janet Halley, among others. A rather large body of work to completely ignore, no?

I insist that the NPOV tag be kept on this article until this imbalance is redressed. Peter G Werner 10:56, 29 December 2006 (UTC)

I have removed the entire "Legacy" section, as it was essentially nothing more than a long series of quotes praising MacKinnon and her views. This section provided little or nothing in the way of biographical information or meaningful discussion of her views on feminism or law. Peter G Werner 22:47, 18 January 2007 (UTC)

I've added a few facts implicitly critical of Mckinnon's outlook. Does anyone know the current state of Canada's Mckinnon-influenced pornography laws? Just in that ten-year old Wired article there's horrendous details, like the raiding an art gallery and near-exclusive targeting of gay pornography. (Urb 29 January 2007)

I'm not clear on exact situation vis-a-vis Canadian law. The Butler decision still stands, but I believe the Canadian government has stopped its specific targeting of the gay community, and that may have come out of a court decision. Also, Canada seems to be on less of an anti-porn kick than it was 10-15 years ago, with non-violent porn being for the most part freely available. (Porn with SM or "violent" imagery may be still the target of censors.) Montreal may actually have the most "wide open" sex industry in North America at this point. I wish I could give you some specific cites for all of this, though. Peter G Werner 23:57, 28 January 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Article too long, too many quotes

Looking further at the contributions of 68.50.186.198, the article as it stands is far too long and un-concise, and far too reliant on direct quotation. Somebody looking for a concise introduction to MacKinnon's work and ideas simply will not find it here. Considerable cleanup is needed to reduce the amount of direct quotation in the article. Perhaps much of this article needs to go into a breakout article or articles of some kind. Peter G Werner 18:49, 29 December 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Need more personal information

In this article the discussion of anything personal about her stops after the discussion of her childhood. The rest of the article discusses only her writings and court cases. Is she married? Is she homosexual? Does she have a life partner? Does she have hobbies or other personal life aside from her professional life? This is supposed to be a biography, not solely a legal and political analysis of her work.

NNDB usually has that kind of stuff--64.9.236.149 04:54, 20 February 2007 (UTC)
No idea what NNDB is. I agree, the biography part is practically non-existant, and its a real weak point in this article. I don't know if the people who have been contributing such information consider that topic "frivolous" or "unprofessional", but including biographical information is very important. A person is more than just the sum of their published works and court cases, after all. As for relationships, she was in a very high-profile engagement to Jeffrey Moussaieff Masson for several year during the 1990s, though that relationship ended some time ago. I'll try to add something about it. Peter G Werner 03:54, 9 April 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Reason for personal information

It might give you some idea as to where some of her controversial ideas come from. 165.247.1.148 08:15, 18 May 2007 (UTC)

==="Upper middle class."

In re: the beginning of the biography--is there any legitimate working definition of "upper middle class," as opposed to "upper class" or "rich" that includes congressmen and federal judges? —Preceding unsigned comment added by 129.101.42.239 (talk) 23:13, 5 February 2008 (UTC)

[edit] Other Critics

Slavoj Zizek points out in Welcome to the Desert of the Real in regards to contemporary feminist theory of MacKinnon's brand that: "is ultimately a profoundly reactionary ideological movement, always ready to legitimize US army interventions with feminist concerns, always there to make dismissive patronizing remarks about Third World populations (from its hypocritical obsession with clitoridectomy to MacKinnon's racist remarks about how ethnic cleansing and rape are in Serb Genes..." Apologies for the lengthy quote but I would be interested in perhaps a source for MacKinnon's comments on Serbs and also does Zizek qualify as a legitimate critic? -UMDStudent —Preceding unsigned comment added by 134.88.146.127 (talk) 00:57, 12 December 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Statement from 1989 Yale commencement address

In her 1989 Yale commencement address, Catherine MacKinnon reportedly made the following statement:

  • "'Some of the proud mothers in the audience [are] sitting next to men who [have] battered them. Some of the well-dressed fathers [have] sexually abused the women who [are] now graduating.'

according to Christopher M. Finan, the author of Catharine A. MacKinnon: The Rise of a Feminist Censor, 1983-1993.

http://www.mit.edu/activities/safe/writings/mackinnon/mac-rise-censor

I suggest that this statement by Ms. MacKinnon is notable. Michael H 34 (talk) 23:20, 14 February 2008 (UTC) Michael H 34