Talk:Catalan language

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[edit] Catalan language for featured

I ask your vote for the article Catalan language to featured articles. Please, if someone thought the article is not so excellent try to improve it. Coronellian 13:56, 24 March 2007 (UTC) 89.129.184.135 20:25, 27 April 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Vampire help needed

I'd be grateful if someone familiar with Catalan could check out the article Count Estruc, which asserts the existence of a historical legend about a Catalonian vampire. Given the widespread interest in vampires, the absence of English references seems very odd, and I'm suspicious that this might date back no further than modern fiction by Salvador Sáinz. Could someone glance at the references and advise if they look reliable? See Count Estruc, ca.wikipedia.org/wiki/Guifred_Estruch and User talk:Estruch. Thanks in advance. Tearlach 17:35, 27 April 2007 (UTC)

Those references only support the existence of Sainz's novel, article needs binning or changing to one describing the novel. Boynamedsue 18:07, 27 April 2007 (UTC)

This is the discussion page from Catalan wiki

"Molt bon dia Soc Salvador Sáinz, autor de un llibre sobre el comte Estruch. He de fer algunes precisions. En primer lloc el nom Guifred es inventat per mi per donar-li mes identitat a la novel.la. En aquell temps el cognom era Estruc, no Struch. La paraula vol dir fortuna, hi ha un origen de les estriges de la mitologia grega, una paraula que si sembla molt. A Transilvània no existeix el nom de vampir, inventada al segle XVIII, sinó Strigoi per mascles i strigoiaca per les femelles. En meu llibre EL CINE DE DRACULA es parla molt de tot això. La destrucció de Llers per la Legió Condor esta narrada al meu compte LAS HIJAS DE ESTRUC, publicat en Weird Tales (Madrid). La meva obra vareixa la realitat amb la ficció. Només volia aclarir aixó. Atentament. Un oblit. La data del vampir es dels anys 1174 més o menys. Era la època d'Alfons el Cast que surt a la meva novel.la." He states, in brief, that his work is a mixture of fact and fiction, but gives no precise information about the factual part. I vote for delete. Boynamedsue 18:15, 27 April 2007 (UTC)

right. after exhaustive googling, I can find only reference to the exitence of an oral tradition about the count. All of the reported traditions are suspiciously similarly worded, and all refer to the destruction of all possible evidence in the bombing of Llers. Sainz admits that he invented the first-name Guifred, I wonder if he invented the whole thing? Alternatively, it may be that the legend is a recent campfire story about vampires, based, or not, on folk traditions about a count there. Antway, all very vague.

[edit] Spanish not Castillian

I've altered the references to "Castillian" influence on Barcelona Catalan, to say "Spanish". Castillian, in modern English refers properly to the province of Castille. A lot of the influence on BCN Catalan comes from Andaluz dialects (I once heard a girl on the FGC talking Catalan but swapping the S's for aspirated h's "Ehtic en el trehn, em trucah dehpreh?". It sounded gorgeous), or from the catalan dialect of Spanish, which is itself influenced by the Catalan language.Boynamedsue 08:35, 28 April 2007 (UTC)

I personally think you're wrong. A drop of water is not an ocean.

Any reputable source as evidence of the influence of Andalusian in Catalan besides a personal experience? --the Dúnadan 18:26, 11 June 2007 (UTC)

The influence of the Andaluz dialect is very hard on all the Catalan Country, both Catalunya, Valencia, and Balearic Islands. But the word Castillian do not refers to dialect, officialy "Spanish" is said "Castellano" (Castillian) according to the Spanish 1978 Constitution. Coronellian 18:24, 18 June 2007 (UTC)

[edit] New studies - Number of speakers

The new study from Generalitat de Catalunya[1] states that 9,118,882 people speak Catalan.

[edit] Categorization

Please see Talk:Romance languages#Confusion in categories. Any input is appreciated. --Amir E. Aharoni 12:46, 6 August 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Reasons to delete the "Similarities between Catalan and Spanish" section

It just have been added one section which should be removed for the following reasons (and some more):

  • Original research
  • Data taken from a non-well acredited source as RAE, IEC or AVL, but from a particular.
  • There are mistakes ("adjetiu" is a non existing word in Catalan, "y" should be the translation in Catalan of the Spanish "f" (¿?¿?¿?)...).
  • Diacritics are not considered. In catalan there are different words which distinguish just because of a diacritic: (te - té, dona - dóna, pèl - pel, ...). They cannot be considered just identical because they aren't.
  • It considers just 1938 words over the 60.000 that apear in the DIEC.
  • It has no sense to have a whole section comparing Catalan and Spanish. It can be added a comment saying how Catalan differs respect other romanic languages, but not just specialy with Spanish: Occitan and perhaps French is closer to Catalan than Spanish.

--Xtv - (my talk) - (que dius que què?) 00:49, 19 August 2007 (UTC)

I agree with the removal of that section. If that section was well referenced and accurate (there is no word in Catalan that is simply an y), and referenced with linguistic sources, I would agree to its inclusion. I wouldn't say that French is closer to Catalan than Spanish, but that is a different story. --the Dúnadan 15:51, 19 August 2007 (UTC)
Why user 204.176.13.6 has undid the deletion without arguing?
Note that there is a link that points to an article to be deleted (Catalan Spanish-side-by-side comparison), created by User:Xchip, the same who created the section here also to be deleted.
Note also that the information referenced here from http://aulex.ohui.net/ca-es has been added to s:ca:Comparatiu Spanyol Catala, and also will be deleted if no argument is made for avoiding it. -Aleator 16:20, 20 August 2007 (UTC)
Sorry for the late reply and misuse, I'm still a newbie :-) so here is my reply:
  • It's not OR since it neither introduces a new theory nor defines new terms nor drives conclusions. It just enumerates.
  • Please if you have found specific mistakes feel free to correct them, that is the wikipedia spirit. And don't just remove the whole page.
  • Sorry about Adjetiu, it should be Adjectiu, please help improve the list by fixing errors as we all do.
  • If diacritics are not considered please feel free to add them.
  • 60.000 entries is like too much, the Maria Moliner dictionary has 40.000, BTW Shakespeare knew around 60k words, but he was a writer. To pass the GMAT (Graduate Management Admission Test) you need to know around 2500 english words, which is quite good.
  • It's weird here that the whole article focuses on how Catalan differs from Spanish bu there is not any section/comment to explain how close they are. Why?
--Xchip 21:25, 20 August 2007 (UTC)

No problem. Now we can dicuss here :-)

  • It is original research. Where can you cite this data from? It wouldn't be original research if you say "in the book from NAME SURNAME, a reputated linguist, he shows that bla bla bla...". But taking a dictionary from some Internet page and elaborating some data, is original research. Why this dictionary? why not considering dyacritics? why just 1938 words? why this words? are they the most used? are they the easier to learn for a Spanish? why...? You took some assumptions, some hypotesis and you worked with it and you showed the results. This is original research.
  • No, I won't correct the mistakes because I think this is not the place. The mistakes were just to show that the original working conditions of your research (the dictionary) was not reliable.
  • First it should be taken an assumption in your research about dyacritics: you probably know that Catalan never has "á" and Spanish never has "à". Then should we consider "à" and "á" the same letter? perhaps. Should we consider Spanish "ó" the same letter as Catalan "ò". Sure not. So, one more assumption to take.
  • Are we discussing about symilarities of writting languages or symilarities about commons written language? (one more assumption to do in your research). If you are comparing the languages, you have to take the whole dictionary. If you want to compare the most used words, then you have to determine the usage of each word and ponderate.
  • Sorry but I don't see in the article any focus of difference with Spanish. The only place I see a comparison with Spanish is in the sentence "phonologically, Catalan is more similar to Portuguese than to Italian, Spanish or French". Well, 5 languages are involved in the sentence. I don't see any any reason to think that "the whole article focuses on how Catalan differs from Spanish" if you don't think also that "the whole article focuses on how Catalan differs from French" or "from Italian". Sincelely, I'm sorry but I don't see the reason of this sentence.

--Xtv - (my talk) - (que dius que què?) 22:05, 20 August 2007 (UTC)

You again removed the whole section, I don't believe this should be black or white thing.

  • Translating is not OR, otherwise every sentence you write would be OR since you are a Catalan speaker writting in English...
  • Q: Why this dictionary?
    • It had a fair a mount of words, we'll add more don't worry.
  • Q: why not considering dyacritics?
    • I'd love to consider them, please help and add them!
  • Q: why just 1938 words? why this words? are they the most used?
    • Well, well add more with the time, as for the frequency usage, that is something the article is not covering so it is out of question.
  • As for you not wanting to help correct mistakes.. too bad!
  • Q: Are we discussing about symilarities of writting languages or symilarities about commons written language?
    • Then again, it's jsut a list of words that change slightly, don't overcomplicate things!
  • as for the 'the whole article focuses ... '
    • What I really mean is that apparently there is no interest in showing how related are Spanish and Catalan.

I'm quite disappointed that you removed the whole list instead of working with me to improve it. It looks like we are not going to agree, shall we get into an arbitration process by a third and unbiased person? Do you know what process do we have to follow? --Xchip 23:49, 20 August 2007 (UTC)

But it will continue being original research (look at Wikipedia:No original research). -Aleator 00:44, 21 August 2007 (UTC)
I insist, you are not just translating. You are choosing a dictionary , you are choosing a method, you are choosing a criterium to avoid dyacritics, you are choosing not ponderating the word depending on its use, you are choosing avoiding phonetics, ... Moreover, it seems you are the author of the dictionary (we'll add more [words]). Then you are creating the dictionary, choosing the words in order to make the comparison. Well, this is 100% original research.
About "interest on showing how related are Spanish and Catalan", this is much different from your first asertion. I have no problem to add this information, only if it is well sourced. For example, in the article about Spanish language, you can see that in the Classification and related languages section there is a symilar paragraph. Well, it is sourced with a prestigious source as the Ethnologue. If you want to add the symilar section with the information you can get here (I even have searched it so that you can not say I want to avoid this information), I don't have absolutely any problem. It's not because of content but because of sources and original research. I hope this can solve the problem. Otherwise, we can make a request for a third part. --Xtv - (my talk) - (que dius que què?) 00:57, 21 August 2007 (UTC)
This link could be interesting, Xchip, Wikiversity:Portal:Research. I think original research is accepted there, but I am not sure at all. Hope it is useful. -Aleator 01:15, 21 August 2007 (UTC)
Let's then go to arbitration and we go from there, I don't have much experience with this procedures, Xtv, do you want to start it? Thanks. --Xchip 18:52, 21 August 2007 (UTC)
Why is your original research better than Ethnologue? You haven't answered. I'm not the only one who tells you that your work is original research. This is clearly against policy of Wikipedia. I think there is not much to discuss. Just one user trying to introduce his own research against most of the users... if you want to start an arbitration, I will contribute, but I think the situation don't require it.--Xtv - (my talk) - (que dius que què?) 23:59, 22 August 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Similarities between Catalan and Spanish

Since many people ask how different is Catalan from Spanish I went ahead and did some analysis of an open source dictionary[1], using the Levenshtein distance on every entry shows that:

  • 21.98% of the words are the identical (whole list).
  • 25.74% only change in one letter
    • bellesa->belleza, bibero->biberon, caramel->caramelo, (whole list).
  • 20.33% of the words can be transformed into Spanish with only 2 changes.
    • evolucionat->evolucionado, ferramenta(heina)->herramienta, creença->creencia, (whole list).
  • 3.3% of the words with 8 or more letters can be transformed into Spanish with only 3 changes.

The metric used is the Levenshtein distance, and a change means an insertion, deletion, or substitution of a single character. I'd like this to be part of the article, however I can see this being removed by a small group of Catalans that don't like this fact. Any help? Thanks Xchip 16:13, 18 August 2007 (UTC)

Besides violating WP:OR and WP:NOT, a non-random sample that includes word-derivatives (words formed by suffixes instead of an analysis of morphemes) is nonscientific. The purported similarities of vowel change apply to all Romance languages (in fact, vowel and consonant change from Vulgar Latin was the cause of the formation these languages; compare evolucionat (Cat.) - evolucionat (Occ.) - evolucionado (Sp.) - evolucioné (Fr.) - evolucionado (Pt.) - evolvuto (It.); or creença (Cat.) - cresença (Occ.) - creencia (Sp.) - croyance (Fr.) - crença (Pt.) - credenza (It.)). Last but not least, the "analysis" is based on orthography and not on phonemes; for example: bellesa and belleza imply one difference in spelling, and yet three differences in phonetics ([bəʎeza] vs. [beʝeθa]); a difference in spelling (i.e. China vs. Xina) could be almost phonetically identical (with the exception of the neutralized "a" in Central Catalan); and two identical words/phrases in spelling (i.e. les cartes both in French and Catalan), are pronounced entirely different. --the Dúnadan 16:11, 19 August 2007 (UTC)
I don't see why is wrong to have a section that explains how close are Spanish words to Catalan, it is quite a common question, and this is a good answer. As you say, this analysis is based on ortography, that is correct and that is what I was tryign ot proof, I dont see how your argument of phonetics invalidates my point of ortographic closeness. If you don't have stronger arguments please add the section again, I don't see why you removed it without previous discussion.Can any non biased person mediate in this discussion? I will provide the list of words thata are the same, change in one letter and that change in two letters. I don't need to mention protuguese or french to prove my point, I just have my facts straight. BTW the past participle of 'evolucionado' is 'evoluto'.Thanks.--204.176.13.6 19:30, 20 August 2007 (UTC)

15:25, 20 August 2007 (UTC)

You missed the first part of my comment: that section was eliminated not because of my purported "bias" towards the section but because it clearly violates WP:OR (and consequently, WP:NOT). Even if it didn't, the analysis is still linguistically poor, it only proves (though it never explicitly said so) spelling similarities with a language with which Catalan is not the closest: Catalan spelling similarities (aka "lexical similarities") most resemble that of Occitan of course, then Italian, and then Portuguese and Spanish, according to Ethnologue [2]. Ethnologue report is far more informative, it is based on the language as a whole and not on an arbitrary non-random sample like yours, and most importantly, since it is a reputable linguistic source, its inclusion would comply with WP:CITE and WP:Verifiability (and thus, does not violate WP:OR). Your point must be proven not by your own non-random work, but by a verifiable source. --the Dúnadan 22:54, 22 August 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Borrowed words

"Like many modern languages, Catalan contains numerous words originally borrowed from other languages" - I think this is a little misleading as every language throughout history has words borrowed from other languages (at least as far as I know). Perhaps it would be more apporpriate just to say "Catalan contains many words originally borrowed from other languages". Does anyone have any objections? --Lesouris 07:22, 6 September 2007 (UTC)

I agree with you. It is misleading because many of the words, like 'Ramon' and 'garage' are in many, many languages. Why should we list words that are the same as words in French or Italian when we have already acknowledged that the languages are in the same family, and hence, they all decended from Latin? I am going to edit this section like Lesouris suggested. Entbark (talk) 16:37, 1 February 2008 (UTC)

[edit] Sections on grammar and Catalan names

Hi,

During my recent and very enjoyable trip to Catalonia (see also Talk:Catalunya Ràdio#iCat.fm :)) i became very curious about the Catalan language and culture and bought a bunch of Catalan books - mostly grammars and dictionaries (i am totally addicted to dictionaries and grammar books and FNAC Barcelona felt just like heaven!). I can read Italian pretty well, and some Spanish too, so it wasn't too hard to pick up Catalan.

Anyway, when i read the articles on Catalan, i found that even from the little that i learned until now, i already have a few things to add to them.

I completely rewritten the grammar section here. I don't yet know the grammar well enough to make significant improvements to the main Catalan grammar article, but i think that the grammar section in this article is a pretty good summary now, although - of course - please feel free to improve it.

I also noticed that a lot of Catalan names have an "i" in them. I guessed its meaning, but try to confirm my guess on Wikipedia. I tried looking at this article first, and couldn't find it. I eventually found it at Spanish naming customs, but i added a section to this article. I think that it is the most appropriate place.

P.S. If you know Catalan well and have a couple of spare minutes, please take a look at ca:Usuari:Amire80 :) --Amir E. Aharoni 22:24, 13 October 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Cul-de-sac

Hi, què hi ha?
That cul-de-sac is a Catalan word that managed to enter the English language via French is just wishful thinking, or maybe even someone's idea of a joke. I can find no corroboration, on the contrary, every source I check gives the word's etymology as French. I'm removing it until someone can supply acceptable proof that it originated in Catalan. ↔ Dennywuh 16:04, 15 October 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Garrigues

I am currently proposing that the Garrigues page should be replaced by the content now found on the Garrigues (disambiguation) page and the the material presently on the Garrigues page should be moved to a new page to be titled Les Garrigues, Catalonia If you have the time I would appreciate your comments on the Discussion page at Garrigues. I hope you will agree. Sincerely, GeorgeLouis (talk) 20:22, 5 December 2007 (UTC)

[edit] to be removed?

Looks to me like the article would do perfectly fine without this part

Like many modern languages, Catalan contains numerous words originally borrowed from other languages: Germanic (Ramon:[2] Raymond, espia: spy,[3] ganivet: knife, guerra: war... and place names ending in -reny, such as Gliscareny), French (brioix: brioche, garatge: garage, fitxa: card...), Italian (piano: piano, macarró: macaroni, pantà: marsh, finestra: window, porta: gate...), Occitan (espasa: sword, beutat: beauty, daurar: to gild, suffixal -aire...), Arabic and Mozarabic (alcohol: spirit, sucre: sugar, alcova: bedroom... and most of toponymy like Benicàssim, Albocàsser...), from Spanish (senzill: easy, xoriço: kind of salami, amo: owner, burro: donkey...), from Basque (esquerra: left, isard: surly, estalviar: to save money... and toponymy as Aran, Benavarri or Algerri...) and from English (bar, web, revòlver...)

It is obvious that all languages take loans from others and this list of examples is neither exhaustive nor simple enough and so I'd simply remove it, maybe just leaving a reference on the most influencial language from a different linguistic family such as Arabic and/or Germanic, but I dont think it's necessary to provide examples even for these. Mountolive talk to me/don't talk to me 01:43, 25 December 2007 (UTC)

Maybe we can rewrite and expand a section on Vocabulary and word origins, à la English_langauge#Vocabulary, which besides including examples, it is far more comprehensive, and includes a more "scientific" exposé (in percentages) of all the languages that have influenced the English language. Graphs could be nice and illustrative too. --the Dúnadan 18:13, 25 December 2007 (UTC)

Excellent idea, but is it doable without OR?

Boynamedsue (talk) 22:00, 26 December 2007 (UTC)

Actually, reading English_langauge#Vocabulary, I notice it's a bit ORey. I might have a go at salvaging it. I have a couple of books with extensive research on this topic in English, but good research like that quite thin on the ground for Latinate languages.

Boynamedsue (talk) 22:08, 26 December 2007 (UTC)

[edit] maps

I find the maps on this page hard to read without a larger context. Rick Norwood (talk) 13:57, 21 January 2008 (UTC)

[edit] French recognition

On December 10, 2007 the Conseil Général of Pyrénées-Orientales passed a law "officially recognizing, together with French, the Catalan language as a language of the département" [3] [4]. Can we state then that Catalan is an official language of that territory? --SMP - talk (en) - talk (ca) 10:49, 4 February 2008 (UTC)

I think not. According to the French Constitution the pnly official language in France is French. Catalan has simply been recognised as a language of the departement without any legal implications.--88.11.220.90 (talk) 19:27, 6 February 2008 (UTC)

[edit] Typing the middle dot

I am studying Catalan and i want to type it. I can't find the middle dot - punt volat on keyboards. I tried it on Windows and on Fedora. I couldn't find a "Catalan" layout in either of them, they only have "Spain".

Any help? --Amir E. Aharoni (talk) 13:21, 13 February 2008 (UTC)

I think i found it - Shift-3, right? --Amir E. Aharoni (talk) 14:09, 14 February 2008 (UTC)

Here, copy this: ·

[edit] Relationship to Spanish

At present, the article contains precious little information on the relationship between Catalan and Spanish - surely one of the main areas of inquiry for anyone who has looked up this article. I understand that a "comparison" section was removed as OR, but can't someone who knows something of the subject do something here? This is crucial information which is completely missing. Mr. IP (talk) 00:31, 24 February 2008 (UTC)

They won't do that. Catalans and spanish have nothing to do. (irony) —Preceding unsigned comment added by 84.232.73.213 (talk) 23:20, 9 April 2008 (UTC)

[edit] Valencian

It's completely wrong to make an exception with valencian. The name of Catalan is the same, wherever you go. Valencian is one of the dialects inside the Catalan. It would be the same to say that in USA they do not speak english, but american. The problem arise when the name of the language is related to the name of an autonomous community (Catalonia), so it seems that Valencian is a minor language. This is also completely false. In catalonia there are other dialects, like the central Catalan. But if you consider that must be noted that in Valencia the language is Valencian, then in the Balearic Island the languages are Mallorquí, Eivissenc and Menorquí. The problem with Valencian is more about a political topic than linguistic. --Jose piratilla (talk) 12:21, 7 January 2008 (UTC)


I am valencian and I don't speak catalan, I speak valencian. You can write false information if you like but almost 100 percent of valencians would agree with me. Catalan people say they are being treated unfairly by Spain, and they say they feel they are being disdained by spanish speakers. Don't you realise you are doing exactly the same thing with valencians? We respect you and so does the vast majority of spanish people, but you are not respecting Valencia and their own identity. You like talking about deserving your identity to be respected, well, start by repecting other people's identity. When I went to school I learnt Valencian, not Catalan. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 84.124.185.39 (talk) 15:33, 28 March 2008 (UTC)

I think the only one writing false information here is you. As usual, this becomes a political issue rather than a linguistic one. Wanting to deny truth won't make it change, you know. Languages don't originate from nothing. Valencian is a variant of Catalan that became a language after James I of Aragon conquered the land and it was populated by Catalan people. From there, it has evolved to a variant called Valencian but the origin of it is clearly Catalan. What do you people think Valencian comes from, otherwise? This is denying history. Please do tell me where, according to 100% of Valencians, valencian comes from. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 99.147.17.60 (talk) 17:08, 1 April 2008 (UTC)

Excuse me, when did I say Valencian didn't come from catalan?? I just read it over again in case I did by mistake. Well I didn't. I have never denied that (there is nothing bad or embarassing about that)! The only thing I said is that They are different, or is the fact that valencian comes from catalan make them the same thing??? Ok take this as an example: Spanish, Italian , etc etc all come from latin... but they are not LATIN!!!! According to you we should!!! Valencian comes from catalan, cool, but they are two DIFFERENT languages and therefore should not be treated as if they were one thing. And valencian speakers should account as catalan speakers —Preceding unsigned comment added by 84.232.73.213 (talk) 17:42, 1 April 2008 (UTC)

I meant should NOT account as catalan speakers(sorry, my bad) —Preceding unsigned comment added by 84.232.73.213 (talk) 17:45, 1 April 2008 (UTC)

Could you please explain then, what does Valentian have that makes it as different as to be considered another language? I mean, where is the boundary? Because, according to you Valentian is a new language evolved from Catalan, and when did it achieve the category of language? You know, this has to be done by convention. Spanish and Italian come from Latin, as you say but they are considered different languages than Latin; and I can only agree to that. I would appreciate if you could empirically clarify what makes Valentian a different language from Catalan, as differences are minor. Do you think then that Cuban or Mexican, which have some differences from Castillian Spanish should be considered as different languages? Catalans and Valencians who speak Valencian, who after all nowadays are a minority, do not get the feeling of speaking different languages because there are almost none. Belive me, a Catalan from Barcelona and a Catalan from rural Lleida wouldn't feel less differences. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 99.147.17.60 (talk) 19:34, 1 April 2008 (UTC)


There are few differences. There are differences in prononciation (not many though) but the main differences are in writting. But the thing is you can't say valencian is the same thing as catalan. After doing some research, i found out that valencian comes from latin according to some people. So not everyone thinks it comes from catalan, to be honest I have my doubts now. Most catalan separatists believe in the "catalan countries" "paisos catalans" and are trying to unify catalonia and valencia, so I think the ones that are using politics are not the valencians. But I am not going into that. I am no expert so I cannot prove anything, my opinion is based on what I read (like the vast majority of people). I was thinking, if they are the same thing, people in catalonia speak valencian don't they? I am just asking for respect, that's all. The truth is I don't live in Valencia, but I can understand and speak valencian. I can write a little as well. But my grandfather who is a "pure" valencian feels very offended when he hears people say valencian is a dialect of catalan, and that it is "less important" because it isn't. Some people in Catalonia think that valencians and catalans share the same cultural identity and heritage which is completely false. That's where I am going. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 84.232.73.213 (talk) 21:54, 1 April 2008 (UTC)


It is curious to read your message and see that is talking a lot about politics when you just say you are not. This is not a forum about politics. Here we are talking exclusively about linguistics. You have expressed your opinion about something else and maybe there are other places in wikipedia where you could do that, not here. The person who expressed the first opinion about Catalan and Valencian and me are only talking about the language, nothing else. I also think that if one reads your first and last opinion again they seem to contradict each other to some extent. I thought you had learnt Valencian in school but apparently you can only understand and write it a little, besides now Valencian doesn't come from Catalan, either. I think this is also showing us about the honesty of some people writing in this discussion. Wikipedia is trying to be a serious encyclopedia; it cannot talk about what "people" say because people can say they are tall and handsome when in fact they are short and ugly. You can say whatever you want but facts are facts and up to now, a Catalan and a Valencian who speak to each other (in Catalan and Valencian) do not feel as if they were speaking different languages as, e.g. a Spaniard and an Italian would do in spite the fact that they could be able to understand each other to a certain extent. Who is talking here about identity? Who am I or anyone else to talk about people's identity?! The identity of Valencians is something that should be left completely up to them, shouldn't it? Besides we are talking about something very complicated that even belongs to the sphere of privacy. No one is trying to say that Valencians and Catalans have something else than a common language (at least, in this section; again, to talk about other issues, refer to the appropiate section). About your question, well, said like that yes, people in Catalonia speak Valencian because it is the same thing (neither more or less important, nobody said that either), doesn't matter how you call it. Double-check the article and the opinions here: nobody in this section has shown lack of respect for Valencians; if that happens somewhere else, then complain there. This is a section about linguistics, and linguists, up to now, agree on Catalan and Valencian being the same thing (the language, nothing more and nothing else than that). —Preceding unsigned comment added by 99.147.17.60 (talk) 16:50, 2 April 2008 (UTC)

Oh come on! I spent about half an hour writing a reply and it wasn't posted! To sum up what I said, I don't live in Valencia at this moment, but I did and I learnt valencian in school. In valencia, valencian is not compulsory and all subjects are taught in spanish —Preceding unsigned comment added by 84.232.73.213 (talk) 18:29, 2 April 2008 (UTC)

I'm a little confused here. What is the problem in the article we're trying to address? What's the change being proposed? — Ƶ§œš¹ [aɪm ˈfɻɛ̃ⁿdˡi] 20:40, 2 April 2008 (UTC)

Yes, it's a little funny! I think you should refer to the first post of this section —Preceding unsigned comment added by Baes1234567 (talk • contribs) 01:49, 3 April 2008 (UTC)

Yes, I've read the whole discussion. Still not sure. — Ƶ§œš¹ [aɪm ˈfɻɛ̃ⁿdˡi] 04:40, 3 April 2008 (UTC)

Hi, I've lived in Barcelona, Lleida, Valencia, Guadalajara, Murcia and Seville during my life. Some things I've noted is that: a) spanish language spoken in Seville is far more different to that in Guadalajara than the difference between the language talked in Barcelona and Valencia and b) Lleida's language is very similar to that in Valencia. From living in Murcia for a long time, I got some words very peculiar and very local that of course no valencian had heard of, but I didn't think spanish from murcia was another language than spanish in valencia. Every place, or even every person has his very particular way of speaking. Those are the small beautiful things that make life lovelier ;) Of course that's personal opinion, but I felt that in Valencia, Lleida and Barcelona people spoke the same language (call it as you want, it's just semantics), but with those obvious peculiarities due to geographical distance. --80.31.125.246 (talk) 23:37, 5 June 2008 (UTC)

It is important to note that the official Valencian Academy of Language has acknowledged that Valencian and Catalan are variants of the same language (link to a newspaper page in Spanish). --jofframes (talk) 14:13, 6 June 2008 (UTC)