Talk:Catalan independentism

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[edit] Clarifications

I notice several ambiguities needing to be adressed:

  • The Catalan independence movement is a political movement which supports the devolution of the independence of the autonomous community of Catalonia - It's unclear in what period Catalonia was independent as to now demand a "devolution" of something that was in the past. A vague mention to some event in the "Middle Ages" is made, but i'm not sure this referst to 1711 (not quite the middle ages) or earlier, and weather in that alleged time of independence Catalonia comprised the current territories or was a part of the Kingdom of Aragon.
Reworded to make sense. Would please some Catalan nationalist care to explain the main points of their movement, to make this something better than a stub? Diego Moya 18:12, 21 October 2005 (UTC)
I'm not such one, but well aquainted with. Catalan nationalism, really born in the late XIX century, is a mix of a language based and an historically justified one. At the beginnig was seriously influenced by romantic german nationalism (wagnerianism in particular). Sadly, recently also an economic based one. The basic tenents (from a nationalist point of view) are
  • Catalonia was, for all purposes, an independent state prior to 1714 (the end of the Spanish war on Succession), just a personal union with the crown (first of Aragon and latter of Castille/Spain)
  • From this year on, Catalonia suffers a Spanish (castilian) ocupation with ... The exact description of the grievances depend of the flavour of nationalism, but at the very least contains the oppresion of the language and of their own institutions. This opression has been mantained or aggravated by every single central government (with the exception, perhaps, of the II republic)
  • But national identity has been preserved against all odds, and can't be assimilated to spanish identity, but as long as is part of Spain is threatened
  • Catalan tax monies should only be used in and for Catalonia (it's a bit crude statement, and should be qualified, but too many times sounds exactly this way)
Thus, the exigence of restoration of a free Catalonia, or at least to an arrangement with the rest of Spain in a confederational form, as it is purported to have been prior to 1714.
It has to be noted that until very recently, the independentist or confederationalist approach was very minoritary in catalan nationalism, the mainstream parties prefering some form of special status within Spain.
An encyclopedic entry about a conflictive topic should contain also a critique on such theories, here are a few, most of them about differing understandings of history
  • The relationship between Catalonia and the rest of the Aragonese Crown and latter of Spain never was exactly a "personal union" as it is purported
  • Not a "personal union" true, but a dynastic union in a sole monarchy. The rest of goverment powers, administrative and judicial were still separated for each territory of the Crown of Aragon until the end of the Succesion war, so in fact it was a different state from the modern point of view with laws, taxes and commericial borders.
  • Because after 1714 the catalan institutions were supressed, the whole integration with the rest of Spain allowed to become Catalonia from a backwater into the most thriving region of Spain
  • The appearence of Bourgeoisie and Industrialization was not due to the destruction of Catalonia self-government if that was the case why it did not happen in Aragon, or the Balearic Islands?
  • Mending past errors, Catalan language has never been so protected as now. And remembering that nowadays the language spoken at home in Catalonia is aprox. 50/50 catalan/spanish
  • The suposed "Mending" is in any case started after the transition, that is about 25 years ago and basically due to the push of the nationalism in Catalonia not an initiative from the Spanish Government. In fact, much more protection should be granted to non-Spanish languages in Spain to reach the levels achieved in other countries like Canada or The Nederlands. Spain has historically tried to supress other languages since the Decretos de Nueva Planta.
  • There isn't, and hasn't been for centuries, any dicotomy beeing catalans and spaniards. It's not a question of either/or but of and --Wllacer 16:31, 27 October 2005 (UTC)
  • There has been and it will be. Many Catalans have been outspoken about independence from Spain and France, because let me remind you, part of Catalonia is under French administration since the Pyrenees Treaty. So there are Catalans that are not Spanish.--Hei hei 05:19, 5 September 2006 (UTC)
  • As for Catalonia being the remaining part of one the largest powers of the Middle Ages, what is meant by "remaining part"? what large power are we referring to?
Clearly, with the "large power", it's refering to the ancient Crown of Aragon. As to the "remaining part", is a mistery to me either (probably a bad digested catch-phase)--Wllacer 16:31, 27 October 2005 (UTC)

[edit] About merging Catalan indepentism and Catalan Countries

Both ideas AFAIK depeloped separately and have different backgrounds. Beside some punctual exceptions, the Catalan Countries idea, originating in Valencia, didn't came into the radical nationalist of Catalonia till the 1970's (I remember a group called PSAN beeing the most vocal about then ) and for what I recall it only latter became part of the ERC ideology-. I don't think they should be merged -Wllacer 16:31, 27 October 2005 (UTC)

[edit] The map

The map [1] in the article as of 27 October 2005 makes absolutly no sense in this context, and even less the caption. If nobody objects (why?) I'll remove it in a few days --217.12.16.56 16:41, 27 October 2005 (UTC)

I agree Toniher 10:59, 29 October 2005 (UTC)

[edit] Suggestion -> Merge in Catalan nationalism

Since we are not talking of the actual independence of Catalonia or the Catalan Countries. I think this article should be merged in Catalan nationalism as it is done with other nationalist movements. Catalan independentism may be regarded as a part of Catalan nationalism and it can be further developed there. Toniher 09:25, 2 November 2005 (UTC)

There would make a lot of sense. I agree --Wllacer 15:42, 2 November 2005 (UTC)
Sounds like a plan! QuartierLatin 1968 01:09, 7 November 2005 (UTC)
Pls. Elaborate --Wllacer 08:47, 7 November 2005 (UTC)
I mean I agree they should merge. QuartierLatin 1968 15:59, 8 November 2005 (UTC)
I disagree. Catalan nationalism doesn't claim for a separate Catalan State from Spain or France, they only ask for more rights. On the other side, Catalan indepentists work for a free Catalan state as the only way to be respected and live on their own with their language and culture. That is, a Catalan independentist is a nationalist, but a Catalan nationalist is not an independentist.--Casaforra (parlem-ne) 11:59, 3 February 2007 (UTC)

As the above, Catalan indepentism is a name used by the Catalan nationalist left due to aversion to the term Nationalism. It is a subset of nationalism, and its main representatives, the ERC, no longer really advocate independence as anything other than a vague aspiration. boynamedsue

[edit] PSAN

Would not be interesting to note that it was created mainly by valencians ?

A couple of trivia (personal memories) which would be perhaps interesting to the article, or one of its own. It's up to you.

In 1977 (it's the official date, but i recall they acted as-if earlier) PSAN adopted a "marxist-leninist" ideology.

Around that time the party was split in an oficial and a provisional branch. The latter, a very small group, favored armed fight and were excelently funded (they had a wonderful printing press in Perpignan, and even published poetry books). As terrorist they were a disaster. They tried a couple of actions and were caught in the act and the group had disbanded by 1978

The last two years of the decade were marked with the reality bite of the lack of social support and the relations with basque counterparts. Some favored EIA and others HASI, with all it meant.

By that time I had lost any interest in them, but I've heard they still exists, and once i saw its webpage. --Wllacer 09:25, 16 December 2005 (UTC)

Wllacer, thanks for the info. This could be used as a starting point to improve ca:PSAN and then a future English version. Toniher 10:22, 16 December 2005 (UTC)

[edit] Discussed source

I have tagged the table with the evolution of support for independence per [WP:OR] concerns because it is extracted from a personal page (secondary at best, if not tertiary, source) which supports Catalan independentism (added [WP:POV] concern).

I paid a quick look at it and I remember, for example, that the percentages were in some cases calculated by the person in charge of the blog. While not necessarily having to be wrong, given the non compliant nature of this source with NPOV, the safest is to tag them until a better, academic, source is found.

This said, please note that I am assuming good faith from this table; that is why I am not removing it, just tagging it. Mountolive all over Battersea, some hope and some dispair 19:41, 27 January 2008 (UTC)

The reference for the diagram is wrong. The correct one is http://www.icps.cat/sondeigs.asp (that is, an official Spanish institution). Look arround page 100 of the pdf's for every year Marc B. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 161.111.136.166 (talk) 10:08, 28 January 2008 (UTC)

Looks like this hasnt been properly understood. The ICPS source is fine. But there is a secondary source (which is a personal page supporting Catalan independentism, by any means compliant with NPOV) which is the one actually summarizing the original (and valid) source. Since the original source is valid, I won't ask for this graph removal, but, all the same, since the secondary source (the personal blog) is the one summarizing and elaborating the primary data, an WP:OR still remains. In other words, to remove the OR concern, it would be needed the ICPS itself (or any other given scholarly institution) to be the one elaborating the graph, not a likely to be biased individual. Mountolive all over Battersea, some hope and some dispair 11:37, 28 January 2008 (UTC)

The graph is made from ICPS data, anyone can check the pages and do their own ones. Is this a problem if a reference is given? Do you want to follow the same behaviour with all the charts in Wikipedia which are not made by official institutions (usually, sadly not by-sa or GFDL) but using official data? --Toniher (talk) 15:25, 28 January 2008 (UTC)
This: do you want to follow the same behaviour with all the charts in Wikipedia which are not made by official institutions (usually, sadly not by-sa or GFDL) but using official data? is not replying any of the concerns expressed above.
and this The graph is made from ICPS data is something which I do not discuss (that is why, once again, I am not removing the table, only tagging it properly). Yes, this anyone can check the pages and do their own ones is true, the problem is when this anyone is working on a loooong series of data which no one will bother to re-check and that "anyone" happens to be a Catalan independentist making a graph on Catalan independentism.
Toniher, not really related to this, but generally speaking, it would be interesting for you to sit and re-think your action in wikipedia, because it seems like your militant (en Català, not in English) nature could be narrowing your perception of things. While it is true and good that different point of views are reflected, when some point of views go beyond fairnesss, then it is quite troublesome and can end up being disruptive. Don't lose sight of this being English wikipedia, which is a quite different environment than, say, Catalan wikipedia. Mountolive all over Battersea, some hope and some dispair 11:41, 29 January 2008 (UTC)
Please Mountolive, avoid any patronizing attitude. We know each other rather enough, and anyone can easily check our own contributions. I personally do not have any problem to show who I really am, so anyone who wants to discuss openly and fairly about any topic, can freely do it with me. If I want to be 'militant' I use other places rather than Wikipedia (no matter which language). However, this does not mean to stay quiet and still and I will not. I'm correcting the links, what you are reverting refers to CIS not ICPS (which it's the correct reference), you should also read as well. By the way, for finding the data, you should only open the different PDF per year, copy the relevant text numbers (search "Independència") and note them down in a spreasheet. I do not think it's so difficult, but do not hesitate to ask for help. --Toniher (talk) 13:56, 29 January 2008 (UTC)


In my opinion, it is not the best option to have a self-proclaimed Catalan independentist to elaborate the relative graph on Catalan independentism. It's a matter of NPOV and, if you may, even a matter of style.

How do we know that he hasnt rounded up data? who is controlling that he's been perfectly true to the data he has summarized? No one will bother to do so (at least I won't). I think these are legitimate concerns which should be covered by the OR tag.

In contrast, I have no problem to admit the value of the table and that it could surpass the concerns associated to it. Therefore I won't insist on this tag for the time being.


Mountolive all over Battersea, some hope and some dispair 14:18, 4 February 2008 (UTC)

[edit] Fair use rationale for Image:No soc espanyol.jpg

Image:No soc espanyol.jpg is being used on this article. I notice the image page specifies that the image is being used under fair use but there is no explanation or rationale as to why its use in this Wikipedia article constitutes fair use. In addition to the boilerplate fair use template, you must also write out on the image description page a specific explanation or rationale for why using this image in each article is consistent with fair use.

Please go to the image description page and edit it to include a fair use rationale. Using one of the templates at Wikipedia:Fair use rationale guideline is an easy way to ensure that your image is in compliance with Wikipedia policy, but remember that you must complete the template. Do not simply insert a blank template on an image page.

If there is other fair use media, consider checking that you have specified the fair use rationale on the other images used on this page. Note that any fair use images lacking such an explanation can be deleted one week after being tagged, as described on criteria for speedy deletion. If you have any questions please ask them at the Media copyright questions page. Thank you.

BetacommandBot (talk) 00:51, 14 February 2008 (UTC)