Talk:Catalan Company

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Is this the same as Almogavares? I'm not sure, but it looks like it. If so they should be merged. Adam Bishop 22:30, 2 Sep 2003 (UTC)

They're different, but related. A rough analogy would be Varangian vs. Viking. Agree though that the Almogavares article needs to be edited to clarify the relationship. Loren Rosen 22:40, 2 Sep 2003 (UTC)
Ah, I see, thanks! Adam Bishop 22:49, 2 Sep 2003 (UTC)

Contents

[edit] Spain / France

Why the addition of Spain and France after "Catalonia"? What do you mean? --Error 00:00, 9 May 2005 (UTC)

[edit] Armaments and Tactics

I'd like to learn about what sort of methods these guys used in combat. How did they adapt to naval combat using medieval equipment and ideas?

"...Catalan Almughavars, who fought with a long spear, several javelins, and a big sword, but no shield."

http://www.umiacs.umd.edu/~kuijt/dba165/dba165.html

[edit] Tirant

De Flor was inspired to form the company by the mediaeval tale of Tirant lo Blanc, after the Peace of Caltabellotta in 1302 had left jobless the soldiers from Catalonia and Aragon who had been fighting against the French dynasty of Anjou.

This seems wrong. Tirant lo Blanc may be a century later. --Error 00:51, 5 October 2005 (UTC)

[edit] Ottoman

Who wrote this that the catalan company defeated the ottoman empire? which is nonsense because the ottoman empire did not exist at that time!!. The ottoman (empire) was unofficially founded in 1299 but according to historians it was about a decade later. I looked at some books about the period of 1300 but there is no mention of anything catalan in it. I personally think that this catalan company in Turkey is nothing but folklore there is absolutally no mention is credited history books. Orrin_73 2 Januari 2006

Try reading a better quality of book. I've just added a line referring to Ramon Muntaner, historian and member of the company. Anyway, see this link on Byzantine history [1], which refers to the attack on the Byzantines by the Ottoman Turks in 1302, and counter-attack by the Catalans in 1303. Choess 21:40, 2 January 2006 (UTC)

The books I consulted were credible still the only mention about catalans is about a contingent from spain and that is in 1453. The name ottomans was not refered until late 14th century. In 1300 the ottoman were a small beylik (emirate)which is by no means an empire at all. The quality of the books has nothing to do with it these are mostly referenced to byzantine historians like Doukas and Anna Comneneus of that time. I assume you take that the link as credible.Orrin_73

Let me try another angle. What books are you examining, and why do you believe they are comprehensive as to external military involvement in the Byzantine Empire at the time? In support of my position, I would point out that:
  1. The text of the article describes their defeat of the Ottoman Turks, e.g., the tribe led by Osman, not the Ottoman Empire, post-1299. That's perfectly reasonable: in other words, the company was engaged against the Ottomans while they were a rebellious tribe and before they became an independent state.
  2. If you look at the article on Ramon Muntaner, there are links to his Cronica, in translation and in the orignal Catalan. It's a rather extensive history and hardly "folklore".
  3. Mainstream print sources attest to the career of the Catalan Company. I quote from A History of the Crusades, Jonathan Riley-Smith (Chapter 8): "The [Catalan] Company had hired itself to the Byzantine emperor Andronicus II to fight the Ottoman Turks, who were making almost their first appearance on the historical scene, but it had quarreled with him and had pillaged its way through Thrace and Macedonia..."

Perhaps your books refer to them as "almogavares," a general term for Catalan light infantry? Choess 02:43, 3 January 2006 (UTC)

We can discuss about this for very long which I dont think it is fruitfull. My knowledge about catalan history is next to zero, so I take it on your word about it. By answering my question you make a few mistakes about the ottomans (turks). Namely that osman did not gain independence neither from the emperor in constantinople nor from the sultan in konya but he was awarded that piece of land from the last seljuk sultan. It was merely to be a border guard against the byzantines. It surpises me you never heard about Doukas or Anna comnennus. The lack of this (catalans) in turkish history books might be that there is no reference to it from their perspective. One reason might be that after timur lenk conquered bursa the capital of the ottomans in 1400 his troops burned the library and the official state documents. So most of the ottoman history documents before 1400 is missing. I hope I didn't bother you with all the info about the ottomans. Orrin_73

Yeah, I was wrong to say "rebellious"; "hostile" would have been a better word. I have heard of Anna Comnena, but I thought she was about a century too early to cover this. Ducas I'm afraid I'm not really familiar with, but his article suggests his history begins too late (1341). Anyway, I can see why they might not be well covered in Turkish sources: their contact with the Ottomans only lasted about a year, after which the Basileus Michael murdered their leaders and they went off to ravage the Empire in revenge (albeit with Turkish auxiliaries). Looking through our list of Greek historians, George Pachymeres and Nicephorus Gregoras both appear to speak of the Catalans ([2]; see also Gibbon [3]). I don't know anything about Turkish sources, but I think the Greek historians and those citing them provide a reasonable weight of evidence as to the historicity of the Company. I apologize for my initial hostility: hopefully this is a satisfactory settlement of the question. Choess 04:56, 3 January 2006 (UTC)

The Ottomans in fact entered the European scene not against the Catalan Grand Company, but with it: "They [the Ottomans] first entered Europe in 1308, when a band of Turkish mercenaries was imported by the Byzantine's own mercenary force, the CGC, which had rebelled against its imperial employers." So ti doesn't make sense to me that they defeated the Ottoman Empire both timewise -the becoming Ottomans were nothing near an Empire yet, Osman I being borned in 1281- and coalition wise. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 24.37.223.79 (talk) 22:07, 13 September 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Badly written

This isn't very well written. I started come changes but it's too late. Can anyone with more expertise help? Arthurian Legend 06:09, 15 March 2007 (UTC) Also, use EMPEROR, not basileus, in English we don't use that word to refer to Byzantine Emperors.

[...]formed his Company with 1500 knights[...] 1500 KNIGHTS it's a lot. I guess they were just horsemen, cavalry, but not knights.

I am writing the article on Almogavers on Serbian wikipedia at the moment, and I must say you're wrong. Catalan company is the same as Almogavers. It is the same. Roger de Flor was almogavers' leader. If you read the Choronicles by Ramon Muntanter, who was almogaver himself, you'll see that it is the same. [4]. furthermore, you can also see this one: [5]. It is the same thing. In this way, having two different articles where in both you tell the same thing, you make only confusion.(You can find me here: sr:Корисник:Maduixa--62.57.41.162 17:20, 30 March 2007 (UTC)

Hmm. I read Muntaner when working on the article on the Catalan Company, and I would still tend to make a distinction between them: Almogavars were a particular type of soldier, mostly recruited from Catalonia, and the Catalan Company was a particular group of almogavars that fought in Asia Minor. They're certainly the most famous, but hardly the only group. Choess 01:53, 29 September 2007 (UTC)