User talk:CasualObserver'48

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[edit] Moved from Talk:List of massacres during the Second Intifada

Hi,

I decided my reply should be here, not in the article talk page, since it's too off-topic.

Your post:

Okedem, first I’d like to know where you think I am ‘at least partially’ correct. It would help me understand where you stand. I appreciate your point; there are those who will never accept Israel. Similarly, there are those who will never accept a Palestinian State. That is the problem for both the PLA and Israel; personally it is also a problem sitting very squarely in America’s lap. All these groups use the 1922 (post-Jordan) Mandate map, but I believe this is is exactly the point. You have your country and they do not. Concerning maps, I will also note the Israel has never declared her borders and has continued to expand (save Sinai). So, this point tends to be somewhat mute, especially considering continued settlements and the Barrier Wall.

I did look at your suggested reference ‘Israeli-Palestinian conflict (under history)’, but note sadly that nothing (apparently) happened in the I/P conflict between ’48 and ’49, between ’67 and ’93 or between ’00 and ’02, which is certainly not the case. (Yes, I also know the ‘main’ article exists.) Concerning Hamas, I will never support their beliefs statement as is, but I will make my own reference to History_of_Hamas#Before_1987_.E2.80.94_Palestinian_Islamic_activities_prior_to_the_creation_of_Hamas and, similarly, History_of_Hezbollah#What_originated_in_Hezbollah. My point is that Israel can do a lot better that it has. It is time to work toward peace, not an endless continuation of ‘my enemy’s enemy is my friend”. There is plenty of blame to go around.

On your later post concerning the right of return I agree this could be a real problem; Israel must remain a democratic state or it is lost. I suggest that time is running out and note that this is purely an internal Israeli political problem. Thankfully, however, the right of return includes ‘or reparations’, with which Israel is quite familiar.CasualObserver'48 05:00, 16 November 2007 (UTC)

  1. You are partially correct in the fact that the Intifada is very closely connected to the occupation, but it (the occupation) is not the only cause, as evident by their own statements and actions - they (some/most) view the whole of Israel as occupied by "the Zionist entity". So I find it simplistic to say that if there was no occupation (of the West Bank and Gaza Strip), there would be no intifada. Playing "what if" is a rather mute exercise, but there's more to it than just the current occupation.
  2. "You have your country and they do not." - Yes, however, they could have had their country, and would have been larger than anything they'll get now - they vehemently opposed both partition plans - the first, in 1937, suggested a very large majority of Palestine be formed into an Arab state - they refused. The second, still suggested a large Arab state, though smaller than the 1937 plan - they still refused, because they wanted more, or generally opposed the very idea of partitioning the land in any way to give Jews a state.
  3. "Israel has never declared her borders" - a common misconception - though Israel hasn't declared its borders in a single, formal document, most borders have been set in an acceptable legal way (like many other countries) - the border with Egypt is set by the peace treaty, and so is the border with Jordan. Israel has recognized its border with Lebanon as the "Blue Line", demarcated by the UN experts, after the 2000 withdrawal from Lebanon, and was very precise about that (to the point of tearing down an outpost, because one of its walls was about a meter beyond the UN determined line. The border with Syria indeed remains unclear, to be determined in future negotiations, like the border with a future Palestinian state. So, basically, most of Israel's border are set and declared, though not all.
  4. "Israeli-Palestinian conflict" - I only reffed that for the emblems...
  5. "Israel can do a lot better that it has" - most certainly. The problem is, the Palestinians don't know when to stop the violence, for their own good. Case in point - the 2005 withdrawal from the Gaza Strip. Israel took an extremely difficult step, and removed some 7,000-8,000 settlers from their homes, despite a serious internal struggle. It completely left the Strip, leaving no settlers, or army presence behind (though still controlling the sea and air). What did it get for this, a possible pilot for a major withdrawal, obviously necessary for a Palestinian State? It got violence. The Palestinians somehow claimed the withdrawal was an evil move (since it was done unilaterally - but what does it matter? They got the land, and weren't even asked to give anything for it in negotiations). The rate of Qassam launches only increased, more and more terrorists tried to cross the fence to perform suicide bombings, etc. The they kidnapped a soldier (Shalit) stationed in Sovereign Israeli territory. Instead of using this opportunity to show Israel they can be trusted, that we can live alongside each-other in peace, they chose to continue with the violence. The idea of a Palestinian State has grown from a minority viewpoint (a very small minority, at times), to a majority view. Israelis have mostly given up the idea of controlling the entire Land of Israel. They just can't trust the Palestinians anymore, and with due cause.
  6. The Erez joint-industrial area has been closed for a long time, now. Why? Well, despite giving many Palestinians jobs, it was constantly under attack by Palestinians, who couldn't bear, I guess, to see Israelis and not try to kill them, even when it hurts their own people. Even before the rise of Hamas in the Strip, the border crossings were often closed down, for both persons and goods - preventing people from going to work, study or get medical treatment in Israel, and preventing exports and imports, vital to the Gaza Strip's economy. Why were they closed? Because every time they opened, militants attacked them - again, they saw Israelis in a relatively vulnerable position, and couldn't bear not to attack - again, hurting their own people way more than hurting Israel.
So - plenty of blame to go around (I only wrote about the Palestinians' "blame" here, but believe me - I'm a very strong critic of my own country's actions). okedem 10:24, 16 November 2007 (UTC)

Reply

I appreciate your reply here and agree that I’d gone off-topic; I somewhat knew it at the time, but was partially still cooling down from an earlier un-cool post. I am very new to Wiki and unaware of the best wiki-ways; you’ve taught me one. Sometimes also, my fingers are in motion before my mind is fully engaged….. I am posting my reply on my page, because it’s 'mine', it seemed to make sense, and I don’t know any better (what's the wiki-way?- I've wasted a day trying to find the preferred). Concerning your numbered points:

You wrote: 1. You are partially correct in the fact that the Intifada is very closely connected to the occupation, but it (the occupation) is not the only cause, as evident by their own statements and actions - they (some/most) view the whole of Israel as occupied by "the Zionist entity". So I find it simplistic to say that if there was no occupation (of the West Bank and Gaza Strip), there would be no intifada. Playing "what if" is a rather mute exercise, but there's more to it than just the current occupation.

Simplistic maybe, but it is not untrue, as you note. Current Occupation?- It has continued for 40 years, two generations, older than you. That is not current; that is a fact of life for Palestinians (and you), which too many Israelis and Americans fail to recognize or choose to forget. I strongly believe that the Second Intifada results much more from and is more directly related to the continued occupation, than from the permanent existence of Israel. I am talking about the ‘average Joe’ Palestinians who, dispite what they might (have to?) say in public and inspite of their ‘government’, just want to live in peace and see their children grow old happily.
The continuing occupation, with its increased level of daily humiliation, ghettoization, deteriorating economy (imposed by Israel to limit the First and then Second Intifada), has resulted in only abject hopelessness and no visible way out. This in turn increased the level and type of violence. I will also add your ref here to stress my point. This shows that (though I objected to it and know incidents happened) between ’49 and ’67 when Israel did not occupy the WB&G, (and the focus shifted to the broader Arab front) Israel had a much lower level of violence from the residents. When the Palestinians were occupied in ’67, on top of (pre-’49) dispossessed, they quickly resorted to violence. They had been forgotten by the rest of the world and used as a tool for the broader Arab front. The Palestinian people had gotten nothing in those first 20 years; after ’67, they ended up with less and reacted (violently) for themselves.
The PLO did eventually changed its charter and accept Israel, though they were damned slow in doing it. (I’ll get to ‘Zionist Entity’ maybe later; understanding it is very important). The PLO changed its charter both because they (finally) saw some hope/advantage in recognizing Israel and because they saw a loss of control if they didn’t. I don’t know which was more important, but note that the First Intifada was on-going for years before the PLO finally made the decision. I believe the Palestinians (people) gained credence during the First Intifada because of their stone-throwing tactics, similarly, I’m afraid Israel lost credence because of their tactics in that period.
Both sides have lost credence during the Second Intifada, again because of tactics; the tactics on both sides are those of the radical hard-liners. You are the one living ‘under the gun’; I recognize it is your life on the line. Maybe I should defer to your fears, but I can’t totally because of what I see happening on the other side. Based on my personal experiences, I must defer to Palestinian human rights, over Israeli fears.
Israel absolutely has the power and influence to overcome whatever chance for peace she takes; the PA has very little and the Palestian people have less. I just wish Israel had more hope. Where is your Sadat (and where is the Palestinian’s)? I guess, therefore, it is a ‘what if’. I do not think it is a mute point, however, because it is looking forward, not backward.

You wrote: 2. "You have your country and they do not." - Yes, however, they could have had their country, and would have been larger than anything they'll get now - they vehemently opposed both partition plans - the first, in 1937, suggested a very large majority of Palestine be formed into an Arab state - they refused. The second, still suggested a large Arab state, though smaller than the 1937 plan - they still refused, because they wanted more, or generally opposed the very idea of partitioning the land in any way to give Jews a state.

This argument is absolutely a ‘what if’ mute point. The Zionists of the time were happy to get anything, officially. Similarly, the Arabs at the time (more properly Palestinians) weren’t willing to give up anything, officially, particularly as the result of the last gasp of colonialism and their first chance to act for themselves as a ‘nation’. Really, why should they have, several of the founders of Israel have recognized this. But I guess, with 20/20 hindsight, that the Palestinian’s refusal likely guarenteed the creation of Israel, rather than just a ‘homeland’, which I also guess (in light of future events) the Zionist founders would not have accepted for very long.

You wrote: 3. "Israel has never declared her borders" - a common misconception - though Israel hasn't declared its borders in a single, formal document, most borders have been set in an acceptable legal way (like many other countries) - the border with Egypt is set by the peace treaty, and so is the border with Jordan. Israel has recognized its border with Lebanon as the "Blue Line", demarcated by the UN experts, after the 2000 withdrawal from Lebanon, and was very precise about that (to the point of tearing down an outpost, because one of its walls was about a meter beyond the UN determined line. The border with Syria indeed remains unclear, to be determined in future negotiations, like the border with a future Palestinian state. So, basically, most of Israel's border are set and declared, though not all.

This is a fact, okedem, not a misconception; your need to explain-around Israel’s current situation just proves the point. Yes, Israel has borders with Egypt and Jordan because of wars, negotiations and a Peace Treaty, perfect, great. The UN Blue Line with Lebanon is a more fuzzy colored line and less perfect, but good progress (something about Shaba(?) Farms). The border with Syria still must be negotiated, but I suspect that there is a less fuzzy colored line somewhere that is mutually agreeable. Since this border has generally been the quietest (excluding Lebanon-related incidents), I don’t expect many problems. The border you don’t have (Israel’s longest?) is the Israel-Palestine border. The Israel-Palestine border is the one Israel hasn’t yet negotiated and declared; it is the border Israel must declare for you to have any hope of peace and security. Most of the world recognizes, and (I believe) the majority of Palestinians will accept, this border to run more-or-less along the Green Line and through Jerusalem.
The border can’t follow the barrier, because that leaves the Palestinians with a non-viable state, which I doubt will allow some of them to live in ‘peace and security with defensable borders….’. The settlements are a violation of International Law, but I’ll live with whatever the Palestinians may accept. The declaration of borders is an act of a sovereign government, subject to negotiations with beligerents, if it is wise. Since Israel crossed the line, and UN 242 was passed in ‘67, the solution has been Land for Peace. This is simplistic, but we are getting much closer to what I see as the crux of the problem (and which I will maybe get into later).

You wrote: 4. "Israeli-Palestinian conflict" - I only reffed that for the emblems...

I know, and then I went off-topic….

I'm having trouble with your 5 and 6. The quick answer is I agree, but..... I didnt want you to think that I was not going to reply. I need more time on these two, because my personal experiences include former West Bankers, rather than former Gazans. There are also things like the dynamic of PA versus Hamas. Give me a while longer. CasualObserver'48 (talk) 08:31, 19 November 2007 (UTC)


Hi. I'm editing here, I hope you don't mind.

1. Yea, no argument here about the causes. I just noted that there's more to it than the occupation (I don't even remember what I meant by "current").

Frankly, the safety of my family, my friends, and my fellow citizens takes precedence over that of another people. So I do support IDF actions that kill militants, even if that means civilians get hurt in some ways. However, I'm for the separation fence, and the whole concept, which can diminish Palestinian interaction with IDF, and give Israelis security. If we are to have two states, they must be separated. However, the Palestinians have quite a successful campaign against it, claiming it's an "apartheid wall", as if the very notion of a fence is evil. While the fence does create problems when it diverges from the Green Line, the underlying concept is necessary. For a Palestinian state to exist, Israel must separate itself from the West Bank. The Palestinians' complete dismissal of the notion lends further credence to the opinion they don't actually want a state in the West Bank and Gaza, but want to take over Israel completely (as will happen with the Right of Return).

3. Hold on - I didn't say all of Israel's borders are set. But the common claim "Israel never declared its borders" is misleading. A peace treaty is a common, recognized way to set a border, and Israel's borders with 2 countries are now set. The West Bank issue is, of course, problematic. The thing is, the claim "Israel never declared.." makes it seem as if Israel is some sort of foggy creature, stretching about, expanding, with no set limits. Also, I'd like to point out that a great many other countries have border disputes (like with Syria) - Britain, Argentina, Pakistan, India, China, Turkey, etc.

5,6 - you really don't have to reply. What I'm saying is this - I am against the occupation. I'd really like to remove all settlements. I don't care about "sacred land", or holy places. Jerusalem can be divided (it was never really united). However, the Palestinians have to "work with us". The supporters of peace in Israel can't continue to support the Palestinians when they work against their own self interest, and the interest of peace.

Their behavior after the Disengagement plan of 2005, which they somehow portrayed as wrong (don't ask me why), was telling. It was very difficult to convince the public to remove the settlements there, and very costly, both financially and politically. The Palestinians had a golden opportunity to show some good will. They failed, and continued their violent ways, destroying their own people as a result.

I cannot defend their cause any more. I don't believe them. I don't trust them. They've shown themselves as incapable of peaceful coexistence, lacking any goodwill. So as far as I'm concerned, I'd still like to remove settlements, to make Israel whole again (as the occupation corrupts us), and make the IDF's job easier. I'd like to build a high wall, and forget about the Palestinians. Their suffering means little to me anymore, because they've used up my goodwill. Speaking for their cause really makes one sound like an idiot nowadays. Opponents can cite so many good evidence against it, I don't know what to say, and don't really care to. The word "Peace" has never rung hollower than now.

In the root of my words here is this - members of the "Peace camp" in Israel feel betrayed by their Palestinian "partners", and so can't really support them any longer. okedem (talk) 16:05, 19 November 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Diaspora disambig page

Thank you for adding an entry to this page--just in time for Thursday. There's no need, however, to make charges. The page is only nine months olds. African diaspora wasn't listed until the end of September. -Acjelen (talk) 15:52, 27 November 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Wikipedia:Requests for arbitration/Palestine-Israel articles

An Arbitration case in which you commented has been opened, and is located here. Please add any evidence you may wish the Arbitrators to consider to the evidence sub-page, Wikipedia:Requests for arbitration/Palestine-Israel articles/Evidence. Please submit your evidence within one week, if possible. You may also contribute to the case on the workshop sub-page, Wikipedia:Requests for arbitration/Palestine-Israel articles/Workshop.

On behalf of the Arbitration Committee, — Rlevse • Talk • 22:22, 10 January 2008 (UTC)

[edit] Hi Casual Observer

I'm really sorry to have missed your previous note! I'm not sure how that happened. You didn't provide a link to the exchange you were referring to, so I've only reviewed what you quoted in your note to me...but in general personal attacks are not very well enforced on Wikipedia. I can't tell you what you should do, but my own approach is to try to have a thick skin. But then I tend to get far more agitated by deliberate obstructionism (endless strawman arguments, moving goalposts, etc.) than by someone calling me names.

As far as the evidence requested, I really don't know what they want at this point. The idea of everyone giving their blow-by-blow resentful recountings is really too much to bear; I hope that's not the idea. But I haven't posted anything yet because I just don't know.

I will keep in touch.--G-Dett (talk) 16:04, 11 January 2008 (UTC)

Hi; I left you a response explaining your mis-perception. I wasn't responding to you as an individual but to the discussion at hand, and even then in general terms. If you thought that you were called an anti-Semite; I understand how you would feel; but if you read it again you will see clearly that it is not the case. I hope you retract your accusation . Itzse (talk) 23:59, 15 January 2008 (UTC)

[edit] arbcom ideas

Hi. I like your suggestions at the ArbCom case. however, could i please suggest that maybe you could set up your own section, for the ideas which you wish to suggest? doing so might make things easier. thanks. --Steve, Sm8900 (talk) 14:07, 16 January 2008 (UTC)

[edit] About Arabic names

I wish there were many more hours in the day! I would love to do something there, but I'm pretty overloaded as it is. I will try to pop by later and thank you very much for bringing it to my attention. I wish I had better access to library resources, but in Nazareth, we don't have one, and with the requirement for English sources, it makes filling out such subjects challenging.

I love your user page note by the way. :) Tiamuttalk 02:07, 19 January 2008 (UTC)

[edit] Shebaa Farms

Hi. It's so nice to meet a fellow baby boomer geographer with expertise and understanding in said field....I too have been fortunate to meet many wonderful residents of Pakistan (and Nepal & N. India) during recent tourist trips there. But St. Lucia? And yes, I too find most frustrating the labeling by some in WP as WP:OR when they misunderstand that, for ex., measuring lengths from an authoritative, large scale govt. issued map is somehow not as valid for WP as copying some www text from somewhere. Pfly is another like-minded editor who is "right on target" on this issue. Anyway, I uploaded Sheba_Farms_1966map.jpg (under list of uploaded images at 18:46, 25 January 2008, adding the red dashed line which is the new UN definition. The UN text is below. You're right, I put in a restricted UN link by mistake. I corrected that (below) and a couple other small items in the article...let me know what you think. Har Dov is the well-known Israeli military facility quite visible on Google Earth at the word "Jabal" in "Jabal el Rous" on the uploaded map which also shows the El Jajidiye village from the UN text below......So the UN, like the map that's been in the Shebaa Farms WP article for some time, does not include in the Sheba Farms the little wedge of flat land (below the foot of the hills visible from the countours on the uploaded map) that borders the 1949 Armistice Line (and the Hasbani River-Al Ghajar part of the Lebanon-Golan boundary.) The Wadi al Asal watershed starts at the upper right of the uploaded map, while the Mt. Hermon Ridge continues for another 23 km beyond that, so you had a good solution to say "drains a large part of the Israeli-occupied part of the Mt. Hermon ridge." Thanks much and lets stay in touch.....Keep up the good work keeping WP "honest" on matters geographical!DLinth (talk) 20:17, 25 January 2008 (UTC)

http://www.spot-on.com/allbritton/UN-Report-on-Implementation-of-1701-Oct-31.pdf :

58. The term Shab’a Farms generally refers to former hamlets, grazing areas and some cultivated land south-west of Shab’a village, on the western slopes of Wadi al-Aasal and on the southern slopes of Jebel Rous and Jebel Soummaq. Based on the information available, the senior cartographer has provisionally concluded that the Shab’a Farms area extends north-east from Moughr Shab’a village and north-west from Wadi al-Aasal. Thus, it is now possible to state that a review and analysis of recent evidence can provide the basis for a provisional definition of the geographical extent of the Shab’a Farms area as follows: starting from the turning point of the 1920 French line located just south of the village of El Majidiye; from there continuing south-east along the 1946 Moughr Shab’a-Shab’a boundary until reaching the thalweg of the Wadi al-Aasal; thence following the thalweg of the wadi north-east until reaching the crest of the mountain north of the former hamlet Mazraat Barakhta and reconnecting with the 1920 line.

Good to hear from you....St. Lucia to Alaska thermal coefficient! (someone had a sense of humor!) And excellent catches-edits on this article. I particularly agree with your insight that water issues are predominant in this part of the world, and your preference for using less accurate coords for non-point features (33°17’N, 35°42’E is perfect....you should make that change.) I just noticed that there's still one instance of my old restricted link that you caught and I'll change that.
You should definitely change "unpopulated" to "depopulated"...good observation.
The several turns in the boundary south of El Majidiye is a problem with Google Earth's boundary lines, which should be greatly improved soon.....There's only one sharp turn there in reality (and on accurate lines/maps)....of course the IDF road that you see switchbackong back and forth across the line was abandoned on the Leb. side in 2000.
Yes, that SW edge is the most vague, but the UN said (not in writing) that they found an old map from the '40's that the border demarcation committee at the time had used and proposed (though never ratified/accepted by the two governments)....and that map has the same "foot of the hills" wiggly line that you saw in red on the '66 map, with Moughr Shab'a (and the pipeline) just to the SW.
Just a guess, but I think your guess is probably correct that Wadi al Asal is mostly surface flow, sometimes even dry....but hydrology, etc. is certaily not my specialty....Ghajar is much better known on the water issue front, with the Jordan River-feeding Hasbani there and the contentious Wazzani Springs immediately across the Hasbani from Ghajar. There's a lot of info on the web on this topic if one puts in the various Wazzani spellings so its absence in the Ghajar article is glaring.
And the Ghajar article is misleading, as north of the boundary, which has never moved there, there was prior to 1967 a settlement, called Wazzani (Ouazzani) there already....see the '66 map....and the two merged after 1967.....I may try to change that if I find time. Mostly fences with roads right next to them than trenches, by the way, east of there, visible on GE.
BTW, in the Ghajar article, wouldn't you think that the lead line should say "on the Lebanon border with territory annexed by Israel but still recognized as Israeli-occupied Syria by the UN" (Much longer but more NPOV.) ??
Thanks again. DLinth (talk) 18:01, 28 January 2008 (UTC)

[edit] Zionists and Arabs attitudes etc

I answered you while you were justifying your revert. Ceedjee (talk) 16:14, 26 January 2008 (UTC)

Here are the oldest references I could find :
  • Hurewitz, The struggle for Palestine, New York, 1950.
  • Jon and David Kimche, Both Sides of the Hill : Britain and the Palestine War, London, 1960.
Both are in the bibliography of the chapter dedicated to The Birth of Israeli and the War of Independence of Howard Sachar, A history of Israel : from the rise of Zionism to our Time, p.1152.
When refering to events that started on 15 May 1948, it must be talked about the 1948 Arab-Israeli War (like in the article on the topic). When refering to the whole period with the Palestinian exodus and the intercommunal war between between Yishuv and Palestinians Arabs, one talks about the 1948 Palestine War (Deir Yassin massacre - Kfar Etzion massacre - War of convoys - The Siege of Jerusalem - ... all this occured before the 1948 Arab-Israeli War).
There is no WP:RS. Like most people you was just not aware of some important parts of that war.
If Efraim Karsh who wrote The Arab-Israeli conflict : The Palestine War 1948 and also The New Historians : fabricating Israeli history had read your comment, he would have died a heart-attack :-)
Ceedjee (talk) 16:35, 26 January 2008 (UTC)
Hi CO'48, thx for joining editing in some articles I also edit in.
I see Ceedjee is suggesting some books to you here. Please be aware that these books are of apologetic nature. See e.g on my user page for some examples in Morris' work. Most are reliable though (I think), except Karsh, who is a real distorter. If you want to read something from the other pov I can recommend Image and Reality of the Israel-Palestine Conflict by Norman Finkelstein or 'The ethnic cleansing of Palestine' by Ilan Pappe. Neutral works are hard to find, but I think C.D. Smith's 'Palestine and the Arab-Israeli conflict' does a remarkeble job here. It covers the conflict from start till now. --JaapBoBo (talk) 23:56, 28 January 2008 (UTC)
Hi CO'48. Ceedjee explained to me why he referred to Karsh and Gelber here: [1]. It seems I was wrong assuming he suggested some reading to you. Regards, --JaapBoBo (talk) 11:01, 30 January 2008 (UTC)

[edit] The Myths

About the immigrants.
You must be aware that New historians make appear numerous myths accompanying the War of 1948. The most famous are the rejection of "David vs Goliath" etc.
But traditionnal israeli historians and sociologists also studied this. Eg, Anita Shapira, in L'imaginaire d'Israël (The Imaginary of Israel) explains the anecdotical reality of the role of the immigrants whose myth birthed after the war, when numerous immigrants came and settle in Israel (population tripled in 4 years after 1948).
Whatever, there was no zionist immigration during the civil war period. That was forbidden by British. And none side fought the British. Hostilities against them stopped on dec47 (even if some died after). All parties expected their support. Ceedjee (talk) 16:47, 26 January 2008 (UTC)

[edit] Main objection

CO48 : "My main objection is that the 1948 PalWar is a link with little info substantitive info in and of itself, it requires going other places. A far better way is to work on that article and flesh it out with your sources. I admited that I didnt know the terminology, I didnt say I didnt know the subject. I have no problem really with the facts the New Historians bring, but the 1948Pal war is a concept at this point, certainly not a fact of wide acceptance, yet. It is bedtime on my side of the world" CasualObserver1948.

  • I agree that the article is short. Sorry for that. I wrote on wp:fr the whole of the article related to the 1947-1948 Civil War in Mandatory Palestine that is FA there. Somebody translated it here. That is already a good stuff.
  • These are not New historians !!! Please : click on the names I gave you : Efraim Karsh and Yoav Gelber. You made as if you were open minded but that is the 4th time I give these names to you ! And I added the Kimche brothers on your talk page here above. Do you know who they were ?

"but the 1948Pal war is a concept at this point, certainly not a fact of wide acceptance, yet".

Among people who doens't know the topic, I think you are right. And I don't care because among historians, there is not a single doubt about this formulation. Find sources that put the events from Nov47 to May48 in a chapter titled "The 1948 Arab-Israeli War" and we will discuss. (There are some. :I found 2 who did so) but I refuse to discuss on another basis than sources and scholar's minds. Ceedjee (talk) 17:07, 26 January 2008 (UTC)
nb: Where I live, it is still not the night.

[edit] WP:IPCOLL

Hi. Thanks for joining WP:IPCOLL and for your active participation already. Did you want to vote on an article for collaboration? (I added your Semite idea to the options, fyi.) Meanwhile, I'd like to archive or move your long thread. Or better yet, how about if you or I move the first paragraph to the Members statements above and the rest archive or to the Lounge? Thanks. Pls let me know soon. HG | Talk 14:39, 27 January 2008 (UTC)

Hi, thanks for your note. I copied your statement and archived, as you suggested. Here's the link Wikipedia:WikiProject Israel Palestine Collaboration/Community lounge, it's also linked at the top of the project's Talk page. Be well, HG | Talk 15:39, 27 January 2008 (UTC)
Hi again. Just so you know (betw us and the trees), Nishidani is editing again. :-) Take care, HG | Talk 20:32, 28 January 2008 (UTC)

[edit] Just testing to see what this filter filters

I have been "Spam Filtered' out of existence —Preceding unsigned comment added by 121.54.32.71 (talk) 12:26, 29 January 2008 (UTC)

I tried to save again after making a sizable post to Jewish Lobby wouldn't let it go thru, even tho I am signed in. CasualObserver'48 (talk) 12:35, 29 January 2008 (UTC)

I tried a few more times but never got anywhere; logged out, shut down and re-booted. Got on and left a message at User:carolmooredc. It worked, so I tried to send my post in small pieces. Blam!! got spam filtered again. CasualObserver'48 (talk) 14:17, 29 January 2008 (UTC)

[edit] Hi Casual

Pls see my response to your welcome note on Zionism. BYT (talk) 14:08, 30 January 2008 (UTC)

[edit] 1948 Palestine War

Hi,
pre warning to keep everything cool :-)

  • I am perfectly aware we are not on wp:fr
  • I am perfectly aware that a discussion is not another one...
  • I am perfectly aware of the issue and its difficulty.

So, I brought the discussion on wp:fr here (in French - If you don't read French, please, don't hesitate to ask to somebody to comment this discussion to you). I took many precautions to take distance with the topic and to focus on principles. After, I explained what was the precise topic (war of 1948 etc).
There was a global consensus so that events are refered to with the name scholars give to them and that knowledge should be our line.
I am ready to discuss this issue with you and/or others. All I ask is that it is done in sourcing our minds and not only in giving them and that you accept the idea that I have been working on that precise matter for 2 years and that I wrote 3 FA articles on wp:fr on the matter. This doens't mean that my mind is better than any others but that means that I know what I am talking about anyway. If you respect WP:AGF and if your work for the encyclopaedia and not for any pov, whatever it is, we will find solutions.
Kind Regards, Ceedjee (talk) 17:12, 1 February 2008 (UTC)

[edit] Edit war

what you did is called "edit war " and I suggest you self revert and discuss.... Zeq (talk) 12:26, 5 February 2008 (UTC)

I do not agree and replied here [2]. CasualObserver'48 (talk) 14:12, 5 February 2008 (UTC)

[edit] thats my pa

Hey Dad, happy to dig you up. What was your involvement in the arbitration on that one case? if you want any of your resources to be online, i have a personal wiki you can upload scans or excerpts to: [3] (account creation is on the bottom) Moc.aidepikiw (talk) 01:27, 10 March 2008 (UTC)

[edit] Hebrew Labor

Thx., CO '48.

I think the term Hebrew LAbor is more accurate than Jewish Labor. In those they they called it Hebrew because of associations with the past, when the whole people still lived in Palestine. I think they also wanted to distinguish from the Diaspora and therefore preferred not to use the word Jewish. --JaapBoBo (talk) 18:31, 18 March 2008 (UTC)

[edit] So very kind...

of you. I really do appreciate the sentiment. It's been a tough past few weeks, (in both the real and wiki worlds) but it's people like you who are active and aware in the community here, that have made it possible to keep on keeping on. Warmest regards, Tiamuttalk 13:49, 19 March 2008 (UTC)

[edit] Wikipedia:Mediation Cabal/Cases/2008-03-18 Second Intifada

Just notifying you, that as you have been involved in the discussion regarding the Second Intifada article, which is now the subject of a MedCab case, I'm notifying you of this as you may wish to partake in this case to discuss a resolution to this dispute. Feel free to leave a comment on my talk page. Regards, Steve Crossin (talk) 23:33, 19 March 2008 (UTC)

[edit] Aware of this?

I noted before you had a collection related to this sort of thing, and thought you'd be interested. CasualObserver'48 (talk) 10:32, 20 March 2008 (UTC)

I believe there are various tools available to certain admins to check on sockpuppets, sources, COI, etc.. Has the CAMERA COI been nailed down? I did not have time to delve into all the details. You have probably already read this section of my user page:

[edit] IPCOLL

Hi co'48,
Thank you for your kind message on my talk page.
>But since you do know about it, do you know of any learned sources (RS) that discuss this crisis in the American context?
In fact I have few knowledge on this topic. I am aware of that identity crisis just by discussing with Israeli and Jew friends. I think people doens't need much empathy to become aware of these matters. And as stated, one of the issue is indeed the fact Jews are (or could be or should be) torn between the Israeli power and the Jewish ethics in the context of a war in which the real risk is difficult to eavaluate.
I don't know anything about the relation between Israel and the US or Israelis nation and Jewish americans but they are of course extremally strong.
On this topic, I am fascinated by jewish and Israeli sense of humor : [4] With the F16, this can be analysed at first, second and third degree.
Sorry if I can't help you more on this topic but it is definitely an interesting one. Ceedjee (talk) 09:00, 21 March 2008 (UTC)

Hi co'48,
From an american point of view, particularly today, I understand it is not funny.
But this is jewish humor and illustrates how they are torn between an Israeli and a Jewish culture. At the same time you have the Israeli arrogance and jewish auto-derision. In this picture : at 1st degree, they tell they have the stronger army of the world (stronger than USA), at 2nd degree, they tell that without the USA they know that they would be lost (this is a F16) and at 3rd degree they thank USA for their support and show how aware they are of the links between both nations and that they have been for 50 years in the first line of the western side, particularly the US one.
FYI : In Europe, we pay an average of 2 times the taxes US citizens pay. But social security is not far from being free. And US weapons paid by a part of your "taxes" were used to destroy Palestinian infrastructure paid with a part of our "taxes"... What happens there is stupid but that's the way the world turns and we cannot change anything to this.
Concerning sense of humor, I prefer this one from Meir. That should interest you :
She said : "In Israel, we read from right to left"...
To Henry Kissinger who had written her that he considered himself 'an American first, Secretary of State second, and a Jew third'
...
Have a nice WE,
Ceedjee (talk) 13:30, 21 March 2008 (UTC)
FYI (I don't have access to Jstor but JaapBoBo has). Ceedjee (talk) 21:24, 22 March 2008 (UTC)

[edit] Zionism's article

Hi CO'48
Thx for your comments in the talk page but I understand what you mean (English is not my mother langage). Could you please explain me with other words or a more direct way ? Thank you. Rgds, Ceedjee (talk) 18:28, 31 March 2008 (UTC)
Historiography of the History of Zionism, by Yoav Gelber, sounds exactly like the book that I would hope for. Would you consider it a discussion of 'moving goal-posts' during Zionism's history, which Jay has trouble with? What are the various 'circumstances' they discuss for different tactics. Seeing that I am also stuck with books, instead of blue hyperlinks, and tend to believe them more, what I generally have done is to put longer block quotes on the talk pages to stir interest and allow discussion, before they go in the article. That is the way I try to do it, anyway. That way no one can say they weren't aware. Often these quotes, or portions, are thus available to all, and tend to find their way in other articles. CasualObserver'48 (talk) 07:55, 1 April 2008 (UTC)

Hi,
I made a little mistake. Title is History of Zionist Historiography but this is not a book but an article in a book. And I started reading the article last evening. That book seems extremally interesting, gathering different historians around the debate of New Historiography.
>Would you consider it a discussion of 'moving goal-posts' during Zionism's history
Well. I am not sure to understand : 'moving goal-posts' ? I have just started the article but I think Gelber shows that the way Zionism is pictured depends much on the time it is pictured and the historians who pictures this.
>What are the various 'circumstances' they discuss for different tactics ?
"tactics"... I think not.
He just explains there exist numerous "points of view" on the same issue, but he doesn't refer to "one brain" that would change tactics but rather to numerous historians/actors, who see Zionism a different way, according to their own feeling/hope/bias...
>Often these quotes, or portions, are thus available to all, and tend to find their way in other articles.
I lost any trust in wikipedia ability to write articles on these issues.
But I am here because it helps me to "dig" some issues. wikipedia is (also) a nice place to find new information or analysis we are not aware of.
Rgds, Ceedjee (talk) 08:30, 1 April 2008 (UTC)

[edit] Antisemitism in the United States

Since you seem to think that Antisemitism in the United States is not a "Wiki-article" due to POV issues, perhaps you would care to explain what you think a Wiki-article is and how the current revision fails to meet your standards. Do you believe there should be an article titled "Antisemitism in the United States" and, if so, what would you change in the current revision to make it acceptable to you? You might also answer the same questions for History of antisemitism in the United States.

Please answer on the talk pages of the relevant articles. Thanx.

--Richard (talk) 20:14, 20 April 2008 (UTC)


[edit] A question from the newbie hinterlands about facts, WP:CON and WP:NPOV

  • Why you? Your blurb was the first to strike me, and it led to m:Association of Structurist Wikipedians, which I felt was good from a cya pov, since it deals with my approach.
  • Why here? I would appreciate your ‘sniff-test’ of my previous approach and advice concerning where to proceed from here. I posted this [5] on 12 April. Responses seemed not of a negotiating nature and I replied [6], [7], [8], and [9]. My use of their suggestions, newbie-ness and unresolved NPOV concerns led me to make this post [10] at CON on 21 April and I received those responses and maybe(?) started another section. Having become aware of this, I posted this update [11] at the original page, with a little more heat. You can see where it now stands. No progress and lots of work later, I guess ‘frustrated’ is the best characterization.
  • Why bother? That is more for you to decide; I know where I stand concerning the three linked terms in this section title, and the current CON’s POV'd re-presentation of them.
  • But, be careful. It’s a hot topic. I have taken an unusual approach, but arrive with reasonable baggage. I also have my own reasons, but would be forthcoming, should you be interested.

Initially, I’d like your considered opinion on the following questions: Have my bulleted NPOV objections been logical and factual? Do I have a legitimate NPOV complaint? Have I followed Wiki-policy to get here? And, where can I go from here, given what I've already tried? Respectfully, CasualObserver'48 (talk) 08:49, 25 April 2008 (UTC)

After going through your edit history a bit, and through the history of that (and a few other pages), I have a few suggestions.
You indeed come with some baggage. It's not necessarily a bad thing to have a POV (and you might wish to read the essay for future reference), but it is not a good idea to begin "pushing" that POV. And it's tough to be the dissenting opinion, there's no two ways about it. Especially when one becomes involved in potentially contentious topics.
A few things that aren't helping you is that, at the moment, nearly everyone on that discussion page stands against your suggestions (centring of Israel, and the "Other..." heading), and the way you're coming across. And they're right, on the surface at least, one could easily assign a consensus concerning the two items as things stand atm.
Several of the statements you're making would be fine, but you really should bring some external sources to the discussion. Unreferenced claims tend to "fall flat" in such discussions.
In addition while it may or may not be "useful" to reference internal Wikipedia convention, or information (such as you did concerning article information, or they did concerning other ethnic transclusions of that same infobox), we should remember that (again) Verifiability trumps convention nearly every time. (Though, remember that others may have references which may differ from yours, or be more or less reliable than yours.
Simply relying on Rhetoric typically isn't enough, especially in contentious topics (as I mentioned above).
Now I think you'll notice that I'm being exceedingly polite. That doesn't make me naive or blind. I just see no need at this moment to assess and analyse your and their possible personal biases or POV. Though I will say I'm not thrilled with more than a few comments on that talk page.
You asked about policy, so I'll finish by giving you some links which I strongly advise any editor to read: WP:NPOV, WP:V, WP:OR; WP:OWN; WP:CON; WP:CIVIL, WP:NPA, WP:AGF, WP:EQ. (Template:Wikipedia policies and guidelines has a pretty good list.)
To summarise, Use references, rather than your own personal thoughts or feelings. Play nice with others, and presume that others are intending to play nice with you, unless you receive evidence to the contrary.
Two other pages that I think would help you in this case would be: Wikipedia:NPOV tutorial and Wikipedia:Controversial articles.
And finally, Since you show interest in such topics, I'd strongly suggest helping out at a WikiProject:
(A larger list can be found at Category:WikiProject Middle East.)
I hope this helps. - jc37 15:44, 25 April 2008 (UTC)
(I guess it goes here.) In a few words, thanks for your suggestions and comments. I would have replied sooner, but seriously undertook the learning opportunity your comments provided. I noted the baggage at the outset because I knew I wasn’t just floating there on Helium. I appreciated and learned from your ref to the POV essay. I have swallowed hard, but accepted your note on pushing that the post entailed, though I tried very hard to maintain sweetness and light as other things occurred. I am considering how best to un-shoot myself from that foot wound, which I see as causal to the flat fall and agree with your view of consensus atm. I am not sure I fully understand your examples of ‘may or may not be "useful" to reference internal Wikipedia convention, or information’, however. Thank you for your tone, specific use of emphasis, and I understand your lack of assessment, atm.
I will continue to work with your long list of blue policy links, but suspect I will again have questions when contrary evidence presents itself. I have particularly noted the opportunity and necessity of defining what various povs might be and likely will pursue that concerning WP:V and ownership. I definitely am interested and knowledgeable on the general topic and certain specifics, but so far, I have decided that it is best to join neither of the specific projects, but note I am already in WP:IPCOLL and systematic bias. We shall see what happens, I am still 'playing by ear', rather than having any 'seat of the pants' experience. Regards, CasualObserver'48 (talk) 07:04, 28 April 2008 (UTC)
You're quite welcome. I'm glad if you found my comments helpful.
To clarify per your comments:
  • "In addition while it may or may not be "useful" to reference internal Wikipedia convention, or information (such as you did concerning article information, or they did concerning other ethnic transclusions of that same infobox), we should remember that (again) Verifiability trumps convention nearly every time."
I was referring to a section of the discussion where you were quoting specific articles, and other Wikipedia-specific references, and was merely attempting to reinforce the idea that finding references external to Wikipedia would probably aid you better in potential future similar sutuations.
Also, I left a request for clarification on that talk page. Be aware that it's not a statement for or against, but merely a neutral request, asking for clarification. (As it's been several days with no response, I may ask someone else who was active on that talk page, or perhaps one or more of the WikiProjects.)
Again, if the comments above have helped, I am gladdened. I hope you have a great day : ) - jc37 18:39, 28 April 2008 (UTC)
Just saw your clarification post, thanks. I've been looking at other things for the last few days and will probably wait for something to happen. CasualObserver'48 (talk) 02:03, 29 April 2008 (UTC)

[edit] Just read your user page

And read this sentence: "It is ironic (many people might say oxymoronic) that I learned my MidEast NPOV in Iran. " I had to laugh, as the whole "happenings" section on your user page relates your slow devolvement into a unmistakable and --I would almost say virulent-- anti-Israeli POV. Your recent statement at the wikilobby page where you apparently liken the Israpedia group to the Israeli government and the whole 'EI/CAMERA incident' to the USS_Liberty_incident and support the idea that Wiki should punish everyone associated with this list they can find, (as if to punish Israel for the Liberty) is a perfect example. You may have been NPOV then, but you certainly are not now!Juanita (talk) 02:57, 7 May 2008 (UTC)

A laugh before the frown. Thanks for reading my user-page blurb, it not only shows that I am POV’d, it explains why and how I got there. I wish more editors would approach Wikipedia that way. Being new to this and unfamiliar, I considered that the only way to approach Wikipedia was to explain my POV, honestly, historically, the way it developed. I believe, however, you missed the point of my post and you seem to be putting words in my mouth, so let me clarify.
My point was that CAMERA is very much part of ‘the lobby’, whether it is termed the Israel lobby in the United States or the Jewish lobby, or AIPAC or even the re-directed Zionist lobby, and all of its groupies and hangers-on; they are all very much part of the sharp end of the spear on the editorial front of a larger conflict. That spear is already aimed where Wikipedia has decided to exist and that arbitration case is the front along which it is being waged. Given that, Wikipedians can put up our shields, or maybe flash some mirrors in their eyes, but if the attack is deemed severe enough, we might well sharpen our own spears (pens, metaphorically). If Wikipedia is to remain what it hopes to be, it is time to decide. That decision is for the Wiki-crats, not me, I just added my two cents, as you have.
Allow me also to remove from my post what you apparently see as anti-Israeli words. I have absolutely no problem with Israel, (defined as Medinat Yisrael), and I wish them and all peace and prosperity; it is terrible that they and the world don’t have it! I do, however have some objections to the Israel (as defined by Eretz Israel), because as the RS’d Tivnan quote indicates, this would be “supporting a particular Israeli ideology”, which is specifically not NPOV and our Wiki-job to NPOV-ify. In my second quote, concerning the USS Liberty incident, RS’d from George Ball, I felt it apropos because it a) can be RS’d and V’d, b) is specifically topical concerning CAMERA and the larger lobby’s work over the last 40 years and, c) is analogous to how I see CAMERA’s attack on Wikipedia and its implications on Wikipedia’s NPOV-ness. This may be my POV, but it is RS’d, not rhetoric, not WP:SOAP.
As you recognize, I seem POV’d and am, but that is much different than and separate from my commitment to Wikipedia’s WP:NPOV, which I must watch and I do. What I might post on talk pages is very different than my edits on article pages; when I edit an article, NPOV, not my POV, is king. I had hoped that was true for all; let’s just say CAMERA’s approach disappointed many. Regards, CasualObserver'48 (talk) 06:40, 7 May 2008 (UTC)
Given that, Wikipedians can put up our shields, or maybe flash some mirrors in their eyes, but if the attack is deemed severe enough, we might well sharpen our own spears (pens, metaphorically). If Wikipedia is to remain what it hopes to be, it is time to decide. That decision is for the Wiki-crats, not me, I just added my two cents, as you have.
What you see as a spear to attack, others see as a weapon of self-defense for Israel and Jews. You speak as if the rest of the world has no defense against the Jews, when in fact the U.N.(Durbin), the Arab League, the Muslim nations, the radical Left, the anti-semites world-wide all have no problem with disseminating anti-Israel(and anti-Jewish) propaganda. As Jews have learned from bitter experience, a propaganda war is always waged before they are expelled or exterminated. Why have I heard nothing from you about the "wikiforPalestine" group and the possibility that the 12 editors from that group are part of group that is waging this war against CAMERA, its members and its possible influence on wiki? Why is it you have said nothing (I have seen nothing) about wiki using Electronic Intifada's words against us? Do you think that Electronic Intifada does not have a spin nor influence? Do you think that the 22 Arab nations have no influence at the UN? Do you really believe that the oil-rich Arab countries, who fill the coffers of American presidents and politicians; that radical Islamists rioting in western countries have no influence? Juanita (talk) 15:39, 7 May 2008 (UTC)

[edit] Thanks for the links

Unfortunately, I will not be around much in next couple of months since I started work on a collaborative artistic project with a rather demanding schedule. I will read those in the little spare time I have though. Many of the articles related to the subject could benefit from the use of high quality academic sources. Thanks and happy editing! Tiamuttalk 18:31, 13 May 2008 (UTC)