Talk:Casus belli

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The section on Turkey and Greece is completely incomprehensible.68.145.207.92 22:57, 19 January 2007 (UTC)

In the Six-Day War section it says Egypt's blockade was only in egypts soveriegn territory but I remeber reading it was at elast partly in international waters. Could somebody please check into this?

Lophoole 01:31, 23 December 2006 (UTC)Lophoole

No confusion: 1. Say what it means. 2. Quote how it has been used in the past. 3. Describe how it has been legitimately extended. 4. Briefly mention erroneous whatevers. Otherwise you get tied in knots, as here. --Wetman 11:03, 16 Mar 2005 (UTC)

The article says "It is often misspelt and mispronounced as 'causus belli'..." and "'Casus belli' is also pronounced this way". This is confusing. Are you saying that it should or should not be pronounced like the English word "cause"? And if it shouldn't, perhaps someone could include information on how to correctly pronounce it? Thanks.

"Today casus belli is also used to indicate a French role-playing game magazine and computer wargames."

Does this mean that there's actually both a French RPG magazine and a computer game called Casus Belli? If so, why doesn't it just say that. The way it's worded here gives the impression that 'casus belli' is a genre of computer game. I also don't like the use of 'Today'. It seems redundant - the word 'is' does the job of tying its use down to the present.

I did some updates on the article, adding the sections "Cause of Use" and "Historic Uses" --Cbrams 19:29, 16 March 2006 (UTC)

Refactored it all a bit to clean up language, reduce redundancy and such. Sfnhltb 13:30, 18 March 2006 (UTC)

Under "Historic Uses", the bullet point about Hitler going into Czechoslovakia needs a substantial rewrite. I had a go at rewriting certain parts, but I can't help but feel I just made it harder to read! I also think that "Lebensraum" is used wrongly here.--El Zilcho 18:49, 19 March 2006 (UTC)

Yeah it's improving slowly, although it's getting a bit long for an example, still I guess it's one of the best to use as it one of the better known by the majority of readers. I was considering adding the example from the current Gulf War, but that runs the risk of making this article contentious, even though it would have the benefit of updating it to a more recent and well known example. Sfnhltb 12:19, 20 March 2006 (UTC)

Shouldn't there be more examples for historic uses? Trough history there must have been more than two wars which made use of 'cassus belli'.--Soetermans 18:17, 26 May 2006 (UTC)

I think it could be added the American-Spanish war of 1898, in Cuba, Puerto Rico and Philippines.--Vbroto

Contents

[edit] Historic uses...

Probably the most obvious (and quite clear?) example is WWI Casus belli - assasination of Archduke Franz Ferdinand of Austria.

Yes, that would be appropriate. Also because it shows a casus belli backfiring. The Germans believing a swift declaration of war by Austria against Serbia would make Austria look like the victim defending itself, but the timespace between assassination and war made it look too premeditated. Also, I think the article misses a section on the role of casus belli compared to the many inter-european treaties - how defensive treaties made it necessary for countries to construct a role for themselves as the victim to get help, while constructing the other part as the aggressor, in order to keep them from getting help from their allies. Poulsen 13:44, 18 June 2006 (UTC)



I dont know where to put this but hitler's pretext for the incorporation of czechville into the reich wasn't Lebensraum...but that ethnic germans were living in the Sudatenland, were being oppressed, and deserved the glory of joining and serving the new aryan order.

[edit] pop culture

A quick look around suggests that wag the dog came out before the monica lewinsky affair broke.

this is correct, according to IMDB, Wag the Dog was premiered on 17 Dec 1997 and according to the wikipedia article on the Lewinsky scandal, the scandal broke a month later (17 Jan 1998) on the Drudge Report. Ealdent 13:27, 9 October 2006 (UTC)
"the president uses a pretext to attack Albania"for reference, I don't believe that the US actually attacks ablania in the film, they just pretend to. 62.60.98.133 11:22, 20 October 2006 (UTC)

[edit] 2003 United States / Iraq War

"As of October 31st, 2006 the US administration has denied that this is the case" [emphasis added]. What is "this"? Is it that there are WMDs in Iraq? or that the claim that there were WMDs in Iraq was a pretext? Kencomer 12:08, 23 November 2006 (UTC)

Also, a citation would be useful, particularly if the latter interpretation was intended. Kryptx 08:08, 22 December 2006 (UTC)
Whatever the wording, it's probably worth having a line added that explains that there weren't any, and that, intentionally or otherwise, the claims were incorrect (or false). Sigma-6 03:43, 5 March 2007 (UTC)

[edit] It wasn't in wide use until the 19th century

Hi I'm lookgin for a source thay supports this statement:

Despite the apparent age that the use of Latin confers on it, the term did not come into wide usage until the late nineteenth century with the rise of the political doctrine of "jus ad bellum" or "just war theory".

Thanks, nyenyec ☎ 15:06, 13 January 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Merge of Proschema

There has been a merge tag on Proschema for eight months. I'm re-proposing the merge with templates on both articles. This merge seems strait forwards and I'll do it in a couple of days if nobody objects. --Selket Talk 05:16, 2 March 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Lebensraum a casus belli?

I hardly think so. Lebensraum was not a justification, it was an actual Hitler doctrine, and such an aggressive doctrine could hardly serve as a viable casus belli. I don't know what Hitler's cb for annexation of Czechoslovakia was, assuming he bothered with one, but "lebensraum" seems an unlikely candidate. Gatoclass 06:02, 2 May 2007 (UTC)

I couldn't tolerate the wrongheaded write-up of lebensraum as a casus belli any longer, but it couldn't be fixed without rewriting much of the section, which I've done. As an added advantage I think the cb examples are also much clearer now. Gatoclass 11:26, 15 May 2007 (UTC)

[edit] War on Terror Reasons

"Viewed from this perspective, the basis for war was not entirely dependent on the possible presence of weapons of mass destruction. They became a focus of media attention due to the potential risk they posed if they were present. This attention led to may people seeing them as the single justification for military action."

Note the last line, "This attention led many people seeing them as the single justification for military action."

The reason there is controversy is that the term "Weapons of Mass Destruction" was used by the administration as a casus belli to the American people, not the official session in congress which ratified the war. Would congress have voted the same if public opinion had not been swayed by the claim that Iraq had "Weapons of Mass Destruction"? Consider that when noting the NPOV of this section. 209.129.85.4 02:25, 15 May 2007 (UTC)

The entire paragraph was original research anyway. I've deleted it. Gatoclass 21:38, 17 May 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Pronunciation

About the line "It is often misspelled and mispronounced as 'causus belli'"... can Latin be mispronounced? I heard there's no existing means of verifying correct pronunciation of this extinct language. I tend to pronounce it simarly to Spanish, in which case the first syllable of "casus" does indeed sound similar to the English word "cause" (to me, anyway).

No. It is a Turkish Phrase. Not Latin. In Turkish "casus = spy" and "belli = apparent" The whole meaning is "The spy is apparent" Maybe it could be pass the Arabish or Hebrew or English from Ottoman language. But we are, I mean Turks use this phase today. Thx Kızılsungur 20:35, 1 September 2007 (UTC)

Here it is: kāˈsəs bělˈī  :Alcmaeonid 14:15, 4 October 2007 (UTC)