Talk:Casey Jones
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IWW version of song, "Casey Jones the Union Scab", might be worth mention.
--Jerzy•t 20:32, 21 March 2006 (UTC)
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[edit] Age at first employment
In the Beginnings section, Jones's age in 1878 is listed as 15, but I don't think that matches up with his date of birth. I think he can only have been 13 or 14 then. Stu 02:02, 21 May 2006 (UTC)
[edit] Casey Jones in Gillian Welch's songs
Maybe one should add that in two pretty well known songs by Gillian Welch there is a reference to Casey Jones; not necessarily as a hero, but maybe just as someone who moved fast.
== "S" Curve Innacuracy"
The text referenced Casey entering the last part of an "S" curve. In reality, the wreck location (north switch at Vaughn Siding) was nearly in the middle of a 1.5 mile long, 0'30" curve. North of this curve, the track is straight for approximately 5 miles to the north back to the curve at Pickens. REB281 (talk) 03:54, 20 December 2007 (UTC)
[edit] Brakes
This mentions that Jones possibly saved lives by riding the brake into the accident, but http://www.watervalley.net/users/caseyjones/casey.htm notes that once the e-brake is set you don't need to hold it anymore. —The preceding unsigned comment was added by 75.18.173.136 (talk • contribs) 17:46, September 23, 2006.
- The article says "When alerted to the danger Casey doubtless reacted instinctively, pulling on the brakes, throwing the engine in reverse, and dumping the sanders. He knew he had to stay with the engine, and do everything he could to slow it down, which involved continually dumping sand and applying and reapplying the brakes, otherwise lives would have been lost. The air brakes when applied are virtually instantaneous for the 6 car train. But on this night the rails were wet, reducing surface traction and braking ability. If Casey had pulled on the brakes and then jumped, the wheels would have slid along the rails and actually increased in speed like a sled rather than slowing down. With him at the controls, he could apply and release the brakes to slow the engine more quickly, while dumping sand on the tracks all the while, and thus not putting the train into a slide. This puts to rest the myth that Casey could have applied the brakes once and jumped to safety with a clear conscience." What is the source for Jones applying and releasing the brakes repeatedly? He was not driving a car, where it used to be (before antilock brakes) a good practice to pump the brakes. Train brakes do not work that fast. I have read an account by fireman Webb wherein there is no mention of Jones releasing and reapplying the brakes. Is this text sourced or is it conjecture? See "The Commercial Appeal" Title: CASEY STORY ALIVE AND CHUGGING \ 100-YEAR-OLD CRASH RECALLED. Author: Bill Dries The Commercial Appeal ate: April 30, 2000 Section: Metro Page: B1 which quotes a 1937 interview of Webb by journalist Ernie Pyle. Webb just said Jones applied the brakes. If he came around a curve and saw the stopped train, how much time did he have, and how long would it take to apply and release the brakes? Why would the train have gained speed (contrary to Newton's laws of motion) while sliding to a stop? (was it downhill?)Edison 00:13, 2 August 2007 (UTC)
I have pulled the controversial paragraph until I can provide better documentation for its claims. But I am sure that the wheels would hydroplane badly on the wet rails and that repeat application of the brakes would be needed. This is info I got from some veteran railroaders/Casey Jones buffs (one of whom is a conductor of a working steam engine) who have discussed the famous wreck in-depth. Sim Webb would not be aware of any repeated braking as he jumped very shortly after sighting the red lights of the looming caboose. I have tried my best to be fair and accurate in stating the facts. His speed in coming into Vaughan is now reported as being 75 mph, not 70 mph as a previous writer stated and I changed that to 75 mph. I also quashed the myth of "Ole 382" being Casey's assigned engine (it wasn't). And I added the sentence about his 9 citations and 145 days total suspension as well. So there has been no conscious burnishing of his legend in my case. But I did want to give him a "brake" based on the info I received. I know it conflicts with the Water Valley Museum which believes that he braked once. I need to find out what SOP for emergency braking was in these cases. Thanks for your interest in this matter. Homedepotov 21:41, 26 August 2007 (UTC)
Repeated application and release of the train's air brakes would probably use up all the available air, especially considering the relatively inefficient air pumps available at the time, meaning that the brakes would stick in the 'on' position, at least for a while. Leaks in the system would then allow the brakes to come off, and be rendered useless. The system would need to be recharged before the brakes would become operative again, which could take some time, and would require the complete release of the brakes, allowing the train to speed up.
If the brakes were tread brakes, as opposed to disc brakes, and they most certainly were, then the water would have also interfered with the brakeblock/wheel interface as well as the wheel/rail interface, reducing the effectiveness of the brakes, but making the wheels less likely to lock up.
Whatever, remaining with the locomotive and trying to at least reduce the train's speed, was a brave thing to do. Rayhol 20:09, 30 November 2007 (UTC)
[edit] Train Braking Innacuracies
Given Westinghouse automatic air brake tecnology of 1900, there is absolutely no way Casey would have "pumped" the brakes and he never would have made such a foolish move. Even if you accept that Flagman Newberry had been properly positioned to flag Casey 3,000 feet from the the rear of Train No. 83, at 75 MPH, Casey would have less than 30 seconds to react. Initiating an engineer-induced emergency application of the train brakes from the locomotive brake valve would have reduced brake pipe pressure to zero and applied the train brakes on the cars. In order to "release" this applicatoin, Casey would have had to release the brakes by restoring sufficient brake pipe pressure throughout all six cars to allow the respective control valves on each car to sense another brake pipe reduction.
Further, Casey's speed at the point of derailment is presumed to have been approximately 35 MPH indicating he had been successful in scrubbing off over 35 MPH in a distance of less than 3,000 (even less if you presume he never saw/heard Flagman Newberry). There would not appear to be any physical way this could have occurred with the train brake being released at any point.
With respect to hydroplaining, contrary to the analogy to anti-lock brakes and depictions of train braking in movies, the weight and braking charastics of 1900 era heavy weight passenger cars would not have slid the wheels when applied in emrgency at 75 MPH. While they MAY have slid as the speed decreased, releasing at that point would have been the last thing an engineer would have done as there would have been no time to recharge/reapply. In addition, the atmospheric condition (raining/misting) would have had minimal affect on the braking characteristics. The head of the rail is only a few inches wide and rounded so it does not hold water as a roadway tends to do. The wheel treads, while wet, are in centrifugal rotation and do not hold water as an automobile tire tends to do. At 70+MPH wheel treads would dry almost immediately with an emergency brake application. While there may be a theoretical reduction in braking capability, without snow, or freezing conditions, it would have been virtually imperceptable on a train consisting of six heavy weight passenger cars--and certainly orders of magnitude less than the braking capacity he would have lost by releasing and reapplying the brakes.
It is far more logical to presume Casey "dynamited" his locomotive, placing the automatic brake valve handle into emergency position, placing the Johnson Bar (reversing lever) into reverse, opening the throttle so that the main drivers reversed, and applying sand. As the train slowed, it would not have been unreasonable to speculate that Casey may have felt the rate of deceleration was sufficient to make the collision survivable and feeling that remaining in the locomotive cab provided an acceptable condition. Jumping from a locomotive cab at high speed is not anyone's first choice if there are options. As he was on the outside of the curve (the engineers positoin is on the right hand side of the cab and the train was operatnig around a long left hand curve), he also may not have known the exact location of No. 83's caboose and felt he had more time/distance. In the dark, red signals tend to look further away than they actually are. Once he saw the position of the caboose, he may have felt he was in a better position to brace himself and ride it out than to take the chance of being on the walkway between the cab and tender if the collisoin occured before he had time to jump. —Preceding unsigned comment added by REB281 (talk • contribs) 03:34, 20 December 2007 (UTC)
Train brakes of the Casey Jones era are discussed in detail in [1] pages 240-241, which is "The Locomotive Catechism: Containing Nearly 1,300 Questions and Answers" By Robert Grimshaw, 1893. It just says apply the emergency brakes, not any reference is seen to "pumping" them. I agree with the previous poster, REB281., that pumping the brakes would have been unwise and inappropriate, and would have increased the stopping distance. Edison (talk) 05:06, 21 December 2007 (UTC)
[edit] Joe Hill version of song
The text in the article states:
- Joe Hill used Jones as an anti-hero in his parody song "Casey Jones, the Union Scab", later sung by Harry McClintock and Utah Phillips, among others.
It is this version which contains the line "you got another papa on the Salt Lake Line," which Mrs. Jones found so objectionable. This version of the song was adapted by Joe Hill for striking shop crews on the Southern Pacific Railroad; he found it a useful source, since the SP engineers had refused to come out in support of the shopmen.The reference to the "Salt Lake Line," along with references to the desirability of riding the Santa Fe and the Northern Pacific, are unsubtle references to the Southern Pacific's competitors.
Some of parts it (the stricken parts) are flatly wrong.
The song first gained widespread distribution in 1912 in the Little Red Songbook of the IWW. Here are links:
http://www.fortunecity.com/tinpan/parton/2/casey.html http://www.newyouth.com/archives/music/joehill.asp
I've heard the Joe Hill song for decades (i am a member of the IWW,) and have never heard the extra lyrics or references mentioned here.
If anyone questions this information, i'd be happy to put out the word to have someone directly check the original songbook for that year.
Richard Myers 09:44, 26 February 2007 (UTC)
[edit] Proposed split
The Jones as folk hero in art section is becoming overwhelming, even with the information that is already split off to Casey Jones (disambiguation). With a section title like we're using, I would more expect to see a scholarly discussion of symbolism in using the name "Casey Jones" in popular culture rather than a trivia list of everywhere the name appears. As it is now, this section adds very little to the article itself; the list is already longer than the biography, and is very likely to be a great deal longer as more references to him are discovered/revealed.
So, I suggest that we split that section out to its own list page titled something like List of references to Casey Jones in popular culture. Such a title more accurately describes the content and we wouldn't have to patrol the list any more to remove items that are on the disambiguation page. Slambo (Speak) 15:11, 28 February 2007 (UTC)
- Hearing no objections after six days, I'm splitting the section out as proposed. Slambo (Speak) 20:57, 6 March 2007 (UTC)
- Done. Slambo (Speak) 21:04, 6 March 2007 (UTC)
See Wikipedia:Articles for deletion/Casey Jones in popular culture. The article which talked about the original song, the Joe Hill labor song, the obscene Army marching song (from World War 1, and from Officer and a Gentleman, the Disney cartoon, the TV show, and the Grateful Dead version are all gone from Wikipedia now. Those who look at AFD (deletion nominations) hate with a passion anything which ends with "in popular culture." Unless that article is restored by the deleting administrator (becasue there was really no consensus to delete) or by DRV (deletion review), there needs to be a section added in this article covering those cultural references. Otherwise, he would probably not be entitled to a Wikipedia article, because as it is left, it is a memorial article to someone who died in an industrial accident, as did hundreds of thousands of other workers in the history of the US. Edison 22:20, 24 July 2007 (UTC)
- There needs to be a section on at least the song, without which he would be known only to his descendants and extreme railroad buffs. Edison 14:26, 23 August 2007 (UTC)
In the entry I posed (for which someone posted a comment on my Usertalk page), I added a version of the lyrics which was contrived by my brother and sister and me, when we were kids. If there was any outside source I don't know about it; that's been about 50 years and none of us would remember. As noted, I also posted it on [www.amiright.com] . Dougie monty 21:37, 5 September 2007 (UTC)
[edit] Engine No. 638
Was that a 2-8-0 engine? Seems like a good place for a link. Here is a possible picture. Also, if anyone knows the configuration of No 382, it'd be interesting to train buffs. John Duncan 01:04, 4 October 2007 (UTC)
[edit] Casey's Fame
I provided a reference for the statement that Casey Jones is the world's most famous railroad engineer. I didn't feel it was necessary as it is pretty obvious that he is, but two people have challenged the use of the absolute qualifier. If you were to take a worldwide poll as to who was the world's most famous engineer, I think Casey Jones would actually be the ONLY name mentioned. Ask any hard-core railroad buffs and I bet no other name comes up either. Here's what the Casey Jones Museum in Jackson, Tennessee had to say about the centennial of the Casey Jones wreck in 2000: "We have received a great deal of interest in the celebration of the centennial of Casey Jones' wreck from both the media and the general public. We have done interviews with UPI, the Farmers Almanac, The Discovery Channel and the BBC concerning the Casey Jones story and the 100th anniversary. American History magazine featured the Casey Jones story in its December 1999 issue. ABC's Good Morning America has also expressed a strong interest in covering this story. TRAINS magazine, the premier publication for railroad enthusiasts, is planning a major tribute to Casey Jones in April 2000. Railfan & Railroad magazine is also planning coverage of the 100th Anniversary. In addition, the Casey Jones story and anniversary will be the focal point for a major media blitz in the German, Austrian and Swiss travel markets in February 2000. We expect this interest to continue on both the national and international scale." Has any other railroad engineer ever received such enduring international media attention? No. Has any other railroad engineer been the subject of a classic song that lives on 107 years after his death? No. Can anybody think of any other famous railroad engineers? No? Any other railroad engineers that have *2* museums in their honor? No. Case closed. 206.255.99.165 (talk) 19:16, 29 November 2007 (UTC)
[edit] "Casey Jones - Union Scab"?
There's a link to "Casey Jones - Union Scab". It's a dead link.
The Brotherhood of Locomotive Engineers did not consider Casey Jones a scab. Brother Jones was a member in good standing of BLE Division 99, Water Valley, Miss. at the time of his death.[2]. --John Nagle (talk) 20:13, 28 April 2008 (UTC)
