Talk:Cascades Rapids
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[edit] Bridge of the Gods
Seems to me that the Cascades Rapids were probably formed by the Bonneville Slide, and probably didn't exist before it. Anyone have a source that could confirm or refute that? -Pete (talk) 00:13, 23 March 2008 (UTC)
- Have only skimmed it, but this page seems to be a good source on this -- looks like yes, the rapids were created by the slide, if I've skimmed right. Pfly (talk) 21:54, 8 April 2008 (UTC)
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- Very cool page, thank you! The submerged forest probably needs more coverage, too... -Pete (talk) 09:43, 9 April 2008 (UTC)
- Fascinating article, the illustrations help sort out the local geography for sure; I noted Clark's line used as a section title there "I heard a great roreing" "The Dalles Type of River Channel"" which answers one of the etymology questions on Talk:The Dalles, Oregon; the Dalles/rapids meaning was already established in English when L&C got there, the term Dalles wasn't coined because of the appearance of these rapids, i.e. because they "looked like flagstones"; that's a different subject than here but it was good to see that line...still trying to find provenance of the term dalles in English, i.e. first occurrence/borrowing from French....Skookum1 (talk) 15:48, 9 April 2008 (UTC)
- I'm reading through it more carefully now and it is full of surprising ideas. I'm particularly amazed at the idea that before the Bonneville Slide made the Cascades Rapids, perhaps around 500 years ago it seems, the river drop at the rapids would essentially be "transferred" to The Dalles & Celilo, producing a drop high enough to block or at least seriously hinder salmon -- in other words, that before about 1450 salmon may have been few or non-existent in the Columbia basin above The Dalles. A "speculative" theory it says, but still striking. Pfly (talk) 04:08, 10 April 2008 (UTC)
- There was a slide across the Fraser at Texas Creek, twenty miles south of Lillooet or so, about 3000 years ago, that blocked the salmon runs and made a huge lake back up, well, quite a ways; google "Keatley Creek" and you'll find information about an important archaeological site that I haven't had the balls to write an article on yet (hate getting things wrong...). Point is the Keatley Creek site is a few hundred feet above the Fraser today, when until about 2-3000 years ago and the slide let go; must have been a big waterfall to start with, and a huge gush when it let go; but what happened to the salmon in the meantime - the Bridge, Stuart, Nechako, Chilcotin and other upper Fraser runs would have been stymied, and fish only go "home"; the Thompson/Adams Lake runs during the same period, who knows; the Thompson Canyon has its own share of landslides. Anyway, yeah, things aren't as permanent as they seem, or as native legend-telling perhaps likes to make it sound.....the salmon recovered; but the immediate impact of such river-blocking slides must have been enormous, upstream and below the slide as well. Oh, at Talk:Chinook Jargon someone posted a bunch of interesting questions and statements; among them was a "Salishan invasion from the Alberta Plateau" into the Columbia basin/southern BC...this person says 1000 years ago, but I know that's not right; sounds apocryphal unless maybe they meant or misread 1000 BC, which is more feasible; but "aboriginal doctrine" holds that the Fraser-Puget area is the "Salishan homeland"; but since when is the question? Similarly the Tsilhqot'in are only relatively recent arrivals in that part of the world, coming down from the north and somehow severing the Nuxalk'mx from the Secwepemc and other Interior Salish; according to linguists Bella Coola is not Coast Salish, but more closely related to the Salishan branch....ok, ok, that's a long way from the Cascades Rapids, it's just further demonstraiton of both the geographic and human flux in these parts; this was not a static society, nor a static landscape. Hardly, huh? (see Mount Meager...) People think mountains are forever; but a steep slope is inherently something that's, well, falling down; it's why it's steep; same as river valleys, they're valleys because they're eroding and changing. Constantly. The world didn't stop evolving just because someone invented TVS and shopping malls..... ;-). It sounds like there's been incredibly detailed study/work on that stretch of the Columbia......Skookum1 (talk) 04:32, 10 April 2008 (UTC)
- I'm reading through it more carefully now and it is full of surprising ideas. I'm particularly amazed at the idea that before the Bonneville Slide made the Cascades Rapids, perhaps around 500 years ago it seems, the river drop at the rapids would essentially be "transferred" to The Dalles & Celilo, producing a drop high enough to block or at least seriously hinder salmon -- in other words, that before about 1450 salmon may have been few or non-existent in the Columbia basin above The Dalles. A "speculative" theory it says, but still striking. Pfly (talk) 04:08, 10 April 2008 (UTC)
- Fascinating article, the illustrations help sort out the local geography for sure; I noted Clark's line used as a section title there "I heard a great roreing" "The Dalles Type of River Channel"" which answers one of the etymology questions on Talk:The Dalles, Oregon; the Dalles/rapids meaning was already established in English when L&C got there, the term Dalles wasn't coined because of the appearance of these rapids, i.e. because they "looked like flagstones"; that's a different subject than here but it was good to see that line...still trying to find provenance of the term dalles in English, i.e. first occurrence/borrowing from French....Skookum1 (talk) 15:48, 9 April 2008 (UTC)
- Actually about 1450 and the salmon run; you'll note one of the keatley Creek links is to a DNA study on the salmon bones found at the place....I'd venture that archaeologists may be able to corroborate the date of the slide by the type and age of the salmon remains at upstream locations; if any coincide with the relevant timeline....ah, using "venture" just reminded me I was meaning to look up The Ventures on youtube to see what's there...check out "Gilberto Gil e Os Mutantes no Parque Domingo" - it's a 1967 performance with Brazil's version of the Mamas and Papas.....Skookum1 (talk) 04:35, 10 April 2008 (UTC)
- Very cool page, thank you! The submerged forest probably needs more coverage, too... -Pete (talk) 09:43, 9 April 2008 (UTC)
[edit] map of Wenatchee-Astoria pls
Other than general illustrative niceties, the reason I'd like such a map is so I can straighten out the difference between these rapids, Celilo Falls, and others; the Celilo Falls article sounds like it's the same as Les Grandes Dalles de la Columbia and in that one instance of dalles I can see why the paving-stone meaning is taken to be the origin - if that were the first usage, which it's not SFAIK, for the meaning as a rapid; the Celilo Falls says they were also known as the Long Narrows, which in combination with the Short Narrows is another name for the location of the Grandes Dalles. I'm not from down there and trying to sort out the geography; a map spanning Ft. Okanagan-Wenatchee down to Astoria would be able to show the locations of these rapids and the different stretches of steamer service and ports in that area in better detail than a basin-wide map; this obviously was inspired/spun off the various discussions about Columbia River/Arrow Lakes steamers....but it would seem to be a useful basemap, also, to illustrate stuff like this; to show where it is relative to Celilo Falls, which from my reading of teh article I can't tell....Skookum1 (talk) 22:17, 7 April 2008 (UTC)
