Talk:Caroline Cox, Baroness Cox

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*Talk:Caroline Cox, Baroness Cox/Archive 1

Contents

[edit] Armenia Fund USA

User:Andranikpasha believes that Armenia Fund is not is not a reliable source, however he failed to explain why. I don't think that the aforementioned organization has any prejudice against Mrs Cox, considering that Cox has always been a supporter of separation of NK from Azerbaijan. --Grandmaster 09:08, 20 September 2007 (UTC)

Grandmaster, I dont believe, Im sure that Armenia Fund website is not a reliable source! Everywhere and in any case at Wiki. Maybe except the article about the fund. if we start to use and distribute materials from that site to different articles at Wiki (as this is not the first time I ask you about it), but if you think its ok, than Ill also use some other materials from the same site related to the NK. Also mark that this site dont consider her if "Cox always been a supporter of separation of NK from Azerbaijan". If its not your original research, then make a citation pls. If its just an original research and POV we will delete also that part of sentence. Thanks in advance. Andranikpasha 16:49, 20 September 2007 (UTC)
I think her speech at that meeting pretty much supports the statement that she is a strong supporter of separatist movement in NK. Karabakh is holy Armenian land and the people will be there forever," she concluded to a standing ovation. As for reliability of the Armenian fund, it depends. It cannot be a good source for Armenia - Azerbaijan conflict due to strong bias, however it cannot be biased against people like Cox and Pallone, who share the same views, and will not be distorting their speeches, so it is a reliable source to describe what those people said at that particular meeting. --Grandmaster 17:26, 20 September 2007 (UTC)
Actually if a person donates money to a fund, that fund will become biased towards that person. In this case Cox, She will be called honorable guest etc. Armeniafund is biased towards her. Also just a quick reminder that this article must adhere WP:BLP.
"We must get the article right.[1] Be very firm about the use of high quality references. Unsourced or poorly sourced contentious material – whether negative, positive, or just questionable – about living persons should be removed immediately and without discussion from Wikipedia.[2]" VartanM 19:57, 20 September 2007 (UTC)
Wrong quote. I do not refer to the opinion of the Armenian fund, I refer to Pallone. That makes a difference. I see no reason why the Armenian fund would distort the words of this American Congressman, and the issue here is if the speech of Pallone was transcribed accurately. Unless you can prove that Pallone's speech was distorted, I see no reason for POV tag. This material is definitely not unsourced or poorly sourced, as it comes from a US congressman. Grandmaster 04:29, 21 September 2007 (UTC)
Don't get me wrong, I'm not saying don't talk about it. All I'm saying is that this article falls under BLP and we must be careful what we put in it and what we say in the talkpage. I don't think Pallone's speech was distorted. What I'm saying is that we should find a reliable source. Fund is not reliable because it depends on Baroness Cox's support and possible donation of funds. If an American Congressman talked about an English Baroness then there are probably more reliable sources. VartanM 05:17, 21 September 2007 (UTC)
I believe the AF is a reliable source for Pallone speech. Why should it not be, even if it depends on Cox's funds, etc? They just quoted the speech of an American Congressman, and that's it. Grandmaster 05:27, 21 September 2007 (UTC)
I believe Frank Pallone's opinion on her, has no place in this article. There is no doubt that she has supported Nagorno Karabakh and reliable sources can be found to support that. But to say that so and so calls her "nationalist Armenian" is against Wp:BLP and is unencyclopedic. Thats my opinion. VartanM 06:25, 21 September 2007 (UTC)

BTW I reported the citation to the WP:BLP noticeboard [1] Lets see what they say. If they say its ok, I wont object to it. VartanM 06:28, 21 September 2007 (UTC)

I beg to differ. This is an opinion of an American congressman who shares the same views with Cox. It is not libel or criticism and definitely has a place in the article. And i don't mind a third party opinion on this. Grandmaster 06:30, 21 September 2007 (UTC)

It is also interesting that the Armenian Ministry of Foreign Affairs refers to her as an "active supporter of Armenian issues":

The Minister flew from Beijing to London to participate in a program marking the 90th anniversary of the Armenian Genocide, sponsored by the British Armenia All-Party Parliamentary Group. Following an ecumenical church service at St. Margaret¹s Church, the Minister addressed a group of journalists, parliamentarians and other officials at the conference which was held in the House of Lords Moses Room. The program was opened by Armenia's Ambassador to the UK, Vahe Gabrielyan. The moderator was Baroness Caroline Cox, chair of the Parliamentary Group, and active supporter of Armenian issues. [2] Grandmaster 06:45, 21 September 2007 (UTC)

Exactly my point, No one denies that she has supported Armenian issues. Armenian foreign ministry is defiantly more credible then ArmeniaFund. VartanM 06:49, 21 September 2007 (UTC)
They both are, because we quote opinions, i.e. opinion of Pallone and opinion of Armenian MFA. If you can prove that Pallone's speech was distorted by AF, then it would be unreliable. However, I don't see why would they do that. Grandmaster 06:55, 21 September 2007 (UTC)
Again I don't think it was distorted. This article is about a Living person and as such other peoples opinions are unencyclopedic. For example you have used the same source in the Frank Pallone's article and it is perfectly fine over there. Because its not using any opinions. It states facts. Here the same source is being used as a means to portray her as "Armenian nationalist" by Frank Pallone. There are alot of congressmans in America, and I'm sure quite few of them know her and have opinions about her. Are we gonna add all of their opinions? to a biography of this living person? VartanM 07:15, 21 September 2007 (UTC)
If the opinion is of any interest, why not? We cannot add too many opinions, but 1 or 2 would be fine. Grandmaster 07:33, 21 September 2007 (UTC)

Btw, why citation needed is added for the statement that Cox supports separatist movement in NK? I think her speech quoted above is pretty much self-explanatory,and you can find this info at the same AF site:

Dubbed as the "Guardian Angel of Arstakh", Baroness Cox has been an adamant supporter of Nagorno Karabakh both in the United Kingdom and internationally, calling for the full and proper recognition of Nagorno Karabakh, as well support for its redevelopment. [3]

Another one, from a British source, which says that she spoke on behalf of Armenians:

In the ethnic conflict of Nagorno-Karabakh, Cox traveled repeatedly to Azerbaijan and Armenia to discover the truth for herself. She spoke out loud and often on behalf of Christian Armenians. [4]

Does this really need a citation? --Grandmaster 07:47, 21 September 2007 (UTC)

Grandmaster, lets do not original research, ok? I cant find in these sources anything about separatists, and if they write she "supports redevelopment of Artsakh", lets add the right citation, not an original research which claims to call a great self-defence movement... as separatist. Also I must repeat myself (as we discussed this "source" earlier in Shushi Massacres talk page): Armenia Fund:

1. is a partisan source,

2. is not a scientifical source,

3. is not a news agency,

4. is not allowed to represent mr Pallones views.

Also mark that Mr Palone is not a researcher, he's just a political activist and his views can represent by any official source not this unreliable one (I dont sure if he even saw the web-site of Fund).Andranikpasha 09:23, 21 September 2007 (UTC)

AF is not partisan towards Cox. It is partisan with regard to NK conflict, but it is not anti-Cox or something, so its being partisan makes no sense here. No one needs permission to report someone's speech. Unless you can prove that Pallone was misquoted by this organization, your objections are baseless. Grandmaster 09:30, 21 September 2007 (UTC)
And yet another Armenian source:
The evening’s keynote speaker was Baroness Caroline Cox, Vice Speaker of the British House of Lords. Baroness Cox, a well-known champion of Karabakh’s right to self-determination, spoke passionately about the great strides Karabakh has made since the 1994 cease-fire accord. [5] --Grandmaster 09:38, 21 September 2007 (UTC)

Grandmaster, you're trying to prove something, directly related to the Karabakh (about a "nationalist of Karabakh") using some partisan and unreliable sources (also you're changing the term "self-defence" of the sources to "separatist")... Sorry add non-partisan reliable sources as we cant to discuss here all the partisan unreliable ones.Andranikpasha 10:07, 21 September 2007 (UTC)

Andranikpasha, are you saying AAA is "partisan" and "unreliable" source? Perhaps, we should then review some other pages where AAA statements are used as references? Or maybe also this source [6] calling Caroline Cox as "true Armenian nationalist who would give her life for Armenia and Karabakh."? Do you think this source is also "partisan" and "nationalist"? Atabek 11:41, 21 September 2007 (UTC)
Armenian sources refer to her as "adamant supporter of Nagorno Karabakh" and "well-known champion of Karabakh’s right to self-determination". We can include those as opinions of the Armenian side. Grandmaster 10:35, 21 September 2007 (UTC)

No, Grandmaster: both AAA Inc. and ArmeniaFund off course are not responsable to represent opinions of Armenian side (?): they reprersent their own opinion, as AGBU, Dashnak party can represent their own opinions, any Azerbaijani fund represents only its own opinion (not that of Azerbaijnai side), Mussavat party or Azerbaijani assemblies abroad didnt represent the opinion of whole Azerbaijani side, just their own opinion: for that there are governments and sometimes all-national movements.Andranikpasha 11:57, 21 September 2007 (UTC)

Nonetheless, the Armenian sources consider Cox to be a supporter of separatist movement in NK. So do Azerbaijani sources. They agree with each other, but use different words to describe it. I think I chose a neutral wording. It is undeniable fact that she suppots separation of NK from Azerbaijan. Grandmaster 12:10, 21 September 2007 (UTC)

Once again: Any partisan and non-partisan fund can only represent its own opinion about a Person (included the respected Baroness) but not opinions of third persons (for example, Mr Palonne) or that of a side (Armenian, Azerbaijnai etc). Arm Fund is not a source it is a benevolent organization with its official site! Not historical, not scientifical, its just an Armenian benevolent fund. "So do Azerbaijani sources." - What sources? Reliable, non-partisan ones? Or are you going also to add some opinions from Azeri funds (for example, one called "Karabakh")? "They agree with each other"- who, the Armenian and Azeri governments, scientists, journalists, or funds, or anyone else? "I think I chose a neutral wording. It is undeniable fact that she suppots separation of NK from Azerbaijan".- its a fact maybe for you but original researches (also using of unreliable and partisan sources) are not welcomed at Wiki. Andranikpasha 12:26, 21 September 2007 (UTC)

What is original research here? Words of Mr. Pallone? I beg to differ, it is sourced info. --Grandmaster 12:29, 21 September 2007 (UTC)
Also, Armenian Assembly of America calls her "well-known champion of Karabakh’s right to self-determination". It is an opinion of AAA, and we can quote it with attribution to that particular source. Armenian MFA considers her to be an "active supporter of Armenian issues", this can also be quoted. Grandmaster 12:33, 21 September 2007 (UTC)

You asked: "Armenian sources consider Cox to be a supporter of separatist movement in NK". The word of separatist is an original research here: no any Armenian source (even funds, assemblies) consider her a supporter of "separatist" movement.

What about Mr Pallone: Mr Pallones words are from non-reliable source (its not a press agency, not a periodical, not an official source allowed to represent Mr Pallones words). Pls see again what Im discussing:

Armenia Fund:

1. is a partisan (Armenian) source,

2. is not a scientifical source,

3. is not a news agency,

4. is not allowed to represent Mr Pallones views.

Also mark that Mr Palone is not a researcher, he's just a political activist and his views can represent by any official source not this unreliable one (I dont sure if he even saw the web-site of Fund). Andranikpasha 12:44, 21 September 2007 (UTC)

You are repeating yourself. I already answered above to this post. Pallone is a politician and his opinion is notable. AF is not partisan with regard to Cox, it is partisan in other issues. If a source is partisan in a certain issue, it does not mean that it is partisan in every other issue as well. Grandmaster 13:05, 21 September 2007 (UTC)
These are her own words:
The time for recognition of the rights of the people of Karabakh for self-determination is NOW. [7]
I don't think any further proof is needed that she supports separatist movement in NK. Grandmaster 14:58, 21 September 2007 (UTC)
I think the Pallone opinion is totally useless, this is not a tabloid or gossip article. On the other hand, her support of the Armenians and Nagorno-Karabakh must be included. VartanM 16:11, 21 September 2007 (UTC)
An admin provided his opinion on this, and he thinks that there's no problem with inclusion of that quote in the article: [8] Grandmaster 05:22, 22 September 2007 (UTC)
If its OK with the admin then its OK with me. VartanM 05:26, 22 September 2007 (UTC)
Lets not add our own interpretations to the article shall we. VartanM 05:35, 22 September 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Armenian "nationalist"

According to the WP:BLP: "An important rule of thumb when writing biographical material about living persons is "do no harm". ...When in doubt, biographies should be pared back to a version that is completely sourced, neutral, and on-topic". The calling of "Armenian nationalist" is a POV, possible by the fund, maybe by the Pallone. Its a non-acceptible pseudo-contraversion for a BLP. Andranikpasha (talk) 17:53, 8 January 2008 (UTC)

This was discussed at BLP board by Vartan's initiative and admins said that there were no BLP issues with that quote. See this: [9] So don't remove info from the article without consensus. Grandmaster (talk) 18:14, 8 January 2008 (UTC)
Then we need to re-list it as the Wiki rules mark different position! Andranikpasha (talk) 19:55, 8 January 2008 (UTC)
They don't. The admin explained that it is OK. Grandmaster (talk) 07:26, 9 January 2008 (UTC)
Then opinions on de Waal must be OK too! this opinion is too much biased:) Andranikpasha (talk) 14:52, 10 January 2008 (UTC)
No. The opinion of Pallone comes from her supporter. It is not an attack or libel, and Pallone does not have any bias against Cox. De Waal is different. Grandmaster (talk) 15:10, 10 January 2008 (UTC)
Why? if anyone calls you a nationalist its not an attack? are you sure? and where you see any personal attacks against de Waal? if his book was criticised, it should be represented here to have a common picture. Noone (I dont have such a fact) is going to attack de Waal's person. Andranikpasha (talk) 15:17, 10 January 2008 (UTC)
Pallone is complementing her, not attacking. This issue has been resolved at BLP board. Please don't try to link it to a different issue. Grandmaster (talk) 15:35, 10 January 2008 (UTC)
Per discussion at BLP board, the dubious tag is not needed. Grandmaster (talk) 11:47, 18 April 2008 (UTC)

I putted this tag as Im disagree if the quote is correct. One year-old discussion at BLP board is completely irrelevant here as this quote is doubted by me (and explained why).Andranikpasha (talk) 13:38, 18 April 2008 (UTC)

I'm not aware of a requirement to insert stupid quotes into Wikipedia articles simply because those quotes are on record. It is self evident that a person cannot be an "Armenian nationalist" if that person is not Armenian! Maybe it is a bad translation, or maybe Pallone, out of ignorance, assumed Caroline Cox was Armenian - but an encyclopedia is not a place for that ignorance to be on display. For example, President Bush has been quoted as saying that Mexicans speak "Mexican" that people in Greece speak "Grecian", and that Jordan is on the "Gulf coast" but I don't think we will be finding his words in Wikipedia articles about Greece or Mexico or Jordan. Meowy 16:59, 18 April 2008 (UTC)
Pallone knows perfectly well that Cox is not ethnic Armenian, those 2 met regularly at similar events for apparent reason. He was referring to her dedication to Armenian issues. And Andranik, you cannot attach a tag just because you are "doubting" something, you were explained by admins that the info is verifiable and is properly attributed, [10] so please stop disruption. Grandmaster (talk) 19:56, 18 April 2008 (UTC)
Well then lets just say that Pallone has praised Cox for her dedication to Armenian issues. If that quote is actually what he said then it was a silly thing to have said because, as I said, Cox cannot be an "Armenian Nationalist" because she is not Armenian. For that reason, like the Bushisms, it should not be used in a wikipedia article because its content just does not make sense. Meowy 21:31, 18 April 2008 (UTC)

So who is disrupting here, Grandmaster? Im not a supporter of these conspiracy theories, nor interested how many times Pallone met Cox. This is an encyclopedia, trying to represent serious, scientifical info, not silly nicknames for living persons. You can find many controversional quotes that f.e. a president respected by you is a nationalist. So what, are you going to add it too? Pls leave this. And Im sure the "quote" by Pallone sooner or later will be completely deleted. Andranikpasha (talk) 20:25, 18 April 2008 (UTC)

We discussed this at BLP, the quote is Ok, it is properly attributed. So there's no reason for the tag, no one can doubt that Pallone indeed said what he said. Since the info is verifiable, the tag is redundant. Grandmaster (talk) 20:42, 18 April 2008 (UTC)
I've looked at the BLP, and the sillyness of the quote was not discussed at all. Do you, Grandmaster, actually believe that a person who is not an ethnic Armenian can be an "Armenian Nationalist"? I don't care who said the quote, it is the impossibility of the claim that makes the quote's claim invalid. She could be fighting on the NK front lines, armed to the teeth, and she would still not be an Armenian nationalist! I guess Pallone meant to say something like "she is an ardent supporter of Armenian nationalism", but that's not what he said, and what he actually said is something that Cox cannot be (because Cox is not even 1% Armenian). Meowy 21:52, 18 April 2008 (UTC)

As we have this silly "quote" here then I need to add this sourced, much more serious and reliable one to the "Azerbaijani mejlis" article for a balance: "People, who're guilty for organization of Sumgait pogroms, at this time have deputate mandates and seats at Milli mejlis" (Ilyas Ismailov, chairman of the Azerbaijani "Adalyat" party, "Zerkalo paper", Baku, 21 Feb. 2003) Andranikpasha (talk) 21:02, 18 April 2008 (UTC)

Meowy, you just deleted verifiable info despite the dispute being resolved at BLP board. That is disruptive. If you have issues with the quote, discuss and reach consensus first. You cannot remove verifiable info just because you do not like it. Grandmaster (talk) 07:17, 19 April 2008 (UTC)
I have opened a new discussion on the BLP board, given that the original BLP discussion failed completely in discussing the core problem with the quote. Meowy 17:05, 20 April 2008 (UTC)

I removed the quote per WP:NOT. Wikipedia is not an indiscriminate collection of information and is certainly not a tabloid. P.S Did you know that she made more then 60 trips to Nagorno-Karabakh Republic, and thats only by 2005. As I said on the BLP bord, If Grandmaster and Atabek are so interested about Baroness Cox's "Armenian nationalism" they can start improving the section about her humanitarian help to Nagorno-Karabagh. VartanM (talk) 08:10, 22 April 2008 (UTC)

Edit warring is not helpful. You agreed to stick to the results of BLP board, [11] what happened now? Did not you say "If its OK with the admin then its OK with me"? Stop edit warring please and discuss your concerns with other involved parties. Grandmaster (talk) 09:35, 22 April 2008 (UTC)
Read my reply again and if you still don't understand it read it again. VartanM (talk) 18:01, 22 April 2008 (UTC)

[edit] Withdrew the whip???

Quoting article: "The Leader of the Conservative Party, Michael Howard, immediately withdrew the Conservative whip from the four."

Parliamentary jargon is suspected here. What does it mean? Wanderer57 (talk) 19:19, 21 April 2008 (UTC)

As you'll see by reading whip (politics): "to 'withdraw the whip' is to expel an MP from his political party." --Orange Mike | Talk 19:43, 21 April 2008 (UTC)
Thank you. As that phrase seems to be specific to Britain, I changed the article to more general language. Wanderer57 (talk) 23:49, 21 April 2008 (UTC)

[edit] Recent edits

I question the NPOV of the recent edit by VartanM, most especially the change of the link from Nagorno-Karabakh to Nagorno-Karabakh Republic. It seems to me that this change of target misrepresents Baroness Cox's support; isn't she most interested in people everywhere not being oppressed? That may result in a new country, or it may not. In addition, the reference does not support this interpretation given it, as it talks simply of "self-determination" for the people of NK, not the Republic. For these reasons, i am changing the link back, but am indicating it here first, so it is clear why. Cheers, Lindsay 14:55, 22 April 2008 (UTC)

The reason why I changed it was because it reads awkwardly and I don't mind the removal of the republic. VartanM (talk) 18:06, 22 April 2008 (UTC)

That's not all, User:VartanM also deliberately removed the link to quote by the leading member of Congressional Armenian Caucus, Frank Pallone, yet again ignoring the discussions and recommendations from admins at WP:BLP - [12] and another one here [13]. So, restoring the reference. Atabek (talk) 18:14, 22 April 2008 (UTC)

Waiting for you to justify your edit. Otherwise you should listen to your pal Grandmaster and stop edit warring. VartanM (talk) 19:42, 22 April 2008 (UTC)

I did provide the justification above, Pallone's statement is sourced and BLP discussion links are provided. Thanks. Atabek (talk) 21:31, 22 April 2008 (UTC)

And you ignored the fact that it violates the WP:NOT. VartanM (talk) 21:45, 22 April 2008 (UTC)