Talk:Caroline Cossey

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[edit] European Court of Human Rights

OK The ECHR did not, as the article implies, first decide in favour of Caroline Cossey's right to be considered female and then reverse it's decision. The procedure at that time was that cases went first to the European Commission of Human Rights and that body made a non-binding recommendation to the court. The court would then hold a hearing and the judges would vote. What happened here was that the Commission's report was that there had been breaches of articles 8, 12, and 13 of the convention. The court held that there had not been sufficient breach to warrant an order against the UK, but warned the UK that it would not hold this position for ever and was loosing patience. In effect it lost patience entirely in 2001 in the Goodwin and I cases and returned overwhelming votes against the UK and as a result the UK passed the Gender Recognition Act in 2004. It is widely believed that the Blair Government that was in power then was very relieved as they had made promises to the UK's LGBT community which they could now keep without a political fight, indeed a form of Gay marriage passed the same year. Wilmot1 22:56, 11 July 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Pronoun issues

Do not use male pronouns to refer to Caroline Cossey. All uses of male pronouns will be considered vandalism. Refer to this message left on my talk page:

Thanks for your note. The editor you cite is mistaken. Legally, Caroline Cossey is female per the UK Gender Recognition Act 2004. Further, it is generally accepted practice by journalists to use the gender by which someone identifies. See 2006 AP Stylebook for citation. This is not "opinion," but fact based on journalistic and legal precedent. Please feel free to correct that misinformed editor.

Therefore, this standard goes for all trans biographies. Elcda0 02:16, 9 December 2006 (UTC)

Cossey is both genetically male and currently lives in the United States, hence the UK Gender Recognition Act is invalid. If you have some kind of gender or sexuality identity crisis of your own, please do the community a favor and stop reverting the article based on personal bias ~ it has no place in Wikipedia and classifies as vandalism much more than what you're accusing me of.

If you want to argue - Cossey is a post-op transsexual, she is not genetically male (as the article states), and she is not legally male. I'm reverting the article based on journalistic and legal precedent, not personal bias. I could very well accuse you editing the article based on personal bias. Take it to a higher power if you think I am in the wrong. Refer to the Manual of Style on Identity (a Wikipedia GUIDELINE), Legal aspects of transsexualism in the US and Legal aspects of transsexualism in the UK before you claim that my edits have no place on Wikipedia. Elcda0 07:07, 11 December 2006 (UTC)

Why are the pronouns still male?

If you think that gender reassignment surgery can change a person's genetic gender identification, then you need to go back to Biology 101. Any standard DNA test would read Cossey as a male, not a female. Now please, stop vandalizing this article with your own personal politics.

This isn't a question of genetics. There are clear Wikipedia GUIDELINES on this issue which MUST be adhered to (see link above), regardless of personal opinions. Your arguments here simply aren't valid. PC78 10:21, 15 December 2006 (UTC)
Please stop this hypocritical accusational crucade and debate, and quit vandalising Caroline Cossey's article with your own personal politics. Having a sex change does not magically change your genetic structure. Cossey, despite having some COSMETIC alterations made, is a male. End of story.
Good Lord! How many times have you been warned that you're violating Wikipedia guidelines? For the last time: On Wikipedia, trans biographies are editing based on their own self-identification, not based on their chromosomes or even their anatomy. Read the Manual of Style. It's right there, the first bullet under Identity. Since you've continued to revert this article based on your own personal agenda, violating Wikipedia's Manual of Style, I've had to take this issue to a higher power, and have reported it to an administrator. Elcda0 22:29, 15 December 2006 (UTC)

Right, I've blocked the offending IP. They can consider themselves permanently banned. I've also removed this unspeakably horrid material from the history. If blocking proves ineffective, next stage by WP:BLP is semiprotection or protection. Morwen - Talk 23:01, 15 December 2006 (UTC)

[edit] First transsexual to pose for Playboy?

Can someone please verify this? I'm fairly certain that Roberta Close was the first. PC78 00:19, 18 December 2006 (UTC)

I'm not sure. Perhaps they're referring to the Playboy shot she did as a promo for For Your Eyes Only, which was in 1980/1981 (?). She hadn't been outed at that point. It's mentioned in her book My Story (which I have a copy of and used as a reference for all the things I contributed to her article). When did Roberta Close do Playboy? Elcda0 03:05, 18 December 2006 (UTC)
I assumed the reference was to her posing nude for Playboy in '91. I know that Roberta Close posed nude for Playboy (Brazil) in 1990, possibly earlier as well but I'd have to look it up. I have a copy of My Story myself, so I'll dig it out and see what it says. PC78 13:03, 18 December 2006 (UTC)
Are you sure you didn't get this from Cossey's earlier book? I've only had chance to skim over "My Story", but I couldn't find any mention of Playboy? PC78 16:23, 31 December 2006 (UTC)
Forget that. According to the article in the September '91 issue of Playboy she did indeed pose nude promoting the Bond film in the June '81 issue. I also found the reference in the book, although that seems to indicate that she was not nude for these photos. However, neither source appears to make any claim that she was the first to pose for Playboy. I still think it's something that needs to be verified. PC78 20:30, 31 December 2006 (UTC)

By any reasonable definition Caroline Cossey IS NOT MALE. She carries the stigma of being Inter-sexed: XXXY. That aside, she a very attractive woman, and this makes the morbidly jealous jealous. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 61.68.104.223 (talk) 06:29, 30 March 2008 (UTC)

[edit] Eileen Davidson

An appearance on Phil Donahue's talk show to speak about her autobiography fanned rumors that Eileen Davidson, an actress who shares many physical traits with Cossey, was actually a transsexual, which Davidson has publicly spoken against.[1]

I've moved this here because (to me at least) it seemed a little misleading. According to the source the rumours about Davidson predate Cossey's appearance on Donahue by about six years, so I'm not sure how relevant this information is. Wouldn't it be more appropriate to have this stuff over at the Eileen Davidson article? PC78 16:23, 31 December 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Sexual assault by a girl?

I removed the text about Cossey's supposed sexual assault by a girl. There is no such passage in My Story. While Cossey did have sex with a girl before she transitioned, in no way does Cossey describe the event as forced - she instead describes it as extremely awkward and confusing. She states on page 12 of her autobiography: "It was a brief encounter, and I mimed pleasure, sustaining an erection by role reversal - I imagined that I was her, being made love to by a man. We were both tender and gentle with one another. But, after it all was over, I felt sad, confused, and disappointed. Once again I stood outside conventional experience." Dark clear obsession (talk) 02:17, 13 January 2008 (UTC)